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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drus-the-Axe View Post
    So you think it's a good thing to 'free up caster classes to not have to buff'? SP should only be for offense?

    Good games present the player with CHOICES. Meaningful choices. Having to choose between getting that better rifle with bigger boom but rare ammo or sticking with the trusty pistol that's easier to load. Making decisions about offense vs defense. Combat vs stealth vs communication. In DDO for casters, one element of that's managing SP. Making tradeoffs - should you cast Resist Energy _and_ Protection From Elements for all elements, or just some.

    If ship buffs are such a 'given', why not just given every toon +10 resist energy every N levels?

    I dislike the OP nature of ship buffs at lower levels (and not scaling well at higher levels). And I dislike the social impacts, especially on newer players who are practically taught 'ship buff == required'.
    I'm guessing that you don't play this game much if you don't see giving casters the choice of having buffing or having more SP's for offense generally just leads to a lot of non-casters not having buffs and being told they have to be more self sufficient, at least in those pugs you like so much.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Don't TR you say?
    So what they do?

    Endgame contend in DDO is weak.
    Sad but true, there are only 2 endgame raids (one is too short to be called a real raid, and the other is worst mechanics in history of DDO packed together).
    And there are of course many easy epic quests, providing decent loot, assuming you farm quest 100 times because of terrible drop rates, which becomes boring very quick.

    Apart from TRing there is nothing much to do.
    We mostly play a lot less than most forumites and generally don't concentrate on a single character. Personally, I've TRed once in nearly 4 years of playing and don't really think I'm missing out on much as 2nd life is still the same quests as the first was and I can complete most on elite regardless.

  3. #43
    Community Member susiedupfer's Avatar
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    Default Not going to read all responses

    So, forgive me if I am being repetitive.

    Before ship buffs, I, as a first lifer cleric, used half of my SP to buff a party for Tempest Spine before we ever started the run. Half of my SP bar. HALF. The other half had to be VERY carefully managed to heal people to the first shrine. Heal ONLY. Wrap your mind around that. There was absolutely no option whatsoever to throw any offensive spells.

    This was not fun for me.

    This was not fun for any cleric. FVS simply did not buff.

    Part of the lack of LFMs is the acute lack of heal capable players willing to group. Removing ship buffs would exacerbate this.

    This is summer here in the US. Many new F2P players out there. Some will become paying customers if they like the game well enough, Do we really need to alienate the people willing to heal those newbies?
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Theese are not real problems.
    Agreed

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    that's why in lower levels players should understand to bring pots. if they don't understand, they need to understand.
    Use pots in lower levels. That's funny. I avoid using them in raids when I can. At lower levels, that's funny.

    In lower levels, players need to understand that you should NEVER have to use pots. If people pressure you to do so, drop group and move on...unless they are willing to share pots with you. If you don't understand this, you need to understand this.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catteras View Post
    Use pots in lower levels. That's funny. I avoid using them in raids when I can. At lower levels, that's funny.

    In lower levels, players need to understand that you should NEVER have to use pots. If people pressure you to do so, drop group and move on...unless they are willing to share pots with you. If you don't understand this, you need to understand this.
    Hmmm... what about you just use pots when you need them? What's up with what you should or shouldn't do. Get over it. Seriously this thread is full of nonsense and should be locked for abusive stupidity.
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  7. #47
    Community Member sdrocky's Avatar
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    1. Stone of Experience
    Don't Like. Used 1 once and wished i didn't about 2 days later. Missed out on all the gear in between and missed out on leveling him with some history.

    2. Ship buffs
    Don't care. Use them some times. Other times not. My wizzy buff bot self buffs anyway.

    3. BB
    Absolutely love but if i break it, meh, its only 5 quests to get it back. Might worry about it on a 3rd life

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catteras View Post
    Use pots in lower levels. That's funny. I avoid using them in raids when I can. At lower levels, that's funny.

    In lower levels, players need to understand that you should NEVER have to use pots. If people pressure you to do so, drop group and move on...unless they are willing to share pots with you. If you don't understand this, you need to understand this.
    I always keep a stack of 100 csw pots in my inventory. Remove curse, remoe disease, remove poison, lesser restoration, haste for that matter to remove debuffs.

    I wouldn't require anyone to use them, but I highly recommend keeping these even at lower levels. At lower levels CSW potions is my main source of self-healing. At higher levels they don't work too well.

  9. #49
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unacceptable View Post
    I always keep a stack of 100 csw pots in my inventory. Remove curse, remoe disease, remove poison, lesser restoration, haste for that matter to remove debuffs.

    I wouldn't require anyone to use them, but I highly recommend keeping these even at lower levels. At lower levels CSW potions is my main source of self-healing. At higher levels they don't work too well.
    This conversation is broken because you think they're talking any potion, and people like me and the person you quoted think that poster was talking about spell point potions. Two entirely different subjects.

  10. #50
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    /not signed

    It seems more like someone wanting to keep others from using things. The arguments from OP do not make sense to me and are not consistent with what I see in the game..

  11. #51
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Look how large the mitigation bandwagon has become. The only reason it is needed in the first place is because of the arbitrary increase in XP needed for TR lives. They designed it so people would flock to purchasing mitigation mechanisms and now people cling to those like they are the only things keeping TRing alive.

    Those things are an issue OP, but they are not an issue for the reasons you describe. It goes far deeper than that.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #52
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catteras View Post
    Use pots in lower levels. That's funny. I avoid using them in raids when I can. At lower levels, that's funny.

    In lower levels, players need to understand that you should NEVER have to use pots. If people pressure you to do so, drop group and move on...unless they are willing to share pots with you. If you don't understand this, you need to understand this.
    Cure/curse/disease/poison pots etc.

    Not SP pots.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #53
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by susiedupfer View Post
    So, forgive me if I am being repetitive.

    Before ship buffs, I, as a first lifer cleric, used half of my SP to buff a party for Tempest Spine before we ever started the run. Half of my SP bar. HALF. The other half had to be VERY carefully managed to heal people to the first shrine. Heal ONLY. Wrap your mind around that. There was absolutely no option whatsoever to throw any offensive spells.

    This was not fun for me.

    This was not fun for any cleric. FVS simply did not buff.

    Part of the lack of LFMs is the acute lack of heal capable players willing to group. Removing ship buffs would exacerbate this.

    This is summer here in the US. Many new F2P players out there. Some will become paying customers if they like the game well enough, Do we really need to alienate the people willing to heal those newbies?
    Raid leaders need to be using rangers and paladins to resist buff parties. This was standard practice up to and until ship buffs came along.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    How does a lack of parties in the middle levels help TR'ing? Today, Sunday afternoon EST, there are no parties between waterworks and Vale on Cannith. None. Not a single LFM. Been that way for a couple hours. Every now and then one or two LFMs pop up for something, and they're generally someone way over level trying to get favor or something, and they all remain 1 person LFMs until they are removed.
    Most of that content is easy to solo on a tr. Maybe you just need a group but i tend to just solo or heaven forbid put my own lfm up!
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    *snip*
    Great points and I think HAL is dead on:

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Those who TR who ignore the issue of lack of groups in Heroic levels are shortsighted. I have nothing against TRing but what they don't seem to understand is that ... these are serious issues for the game and dedicated DDO players would do well not to shrug them off.
    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    Ship Buffs..
    Lots of posts on this,
    My suggestion when the buffs first came out was to change Resist to Absorption (tiered by shrine level)
    This would be useful at all levels and relatively so, low level players no longer become immune to elemental attacks and high level players can associate value to better elemental damage mitigation since it is % based not a static amount.
    The resist spell from those able to cast them and wands actually become useful again.

    My second recommendation was to make all the ship buffs available from the house P buffer for the appropriate price and favor.
    This way you are not forced to join guilds or go begging for ship buffs, get your house P favor and pay as you go buffs.

    don't really care about BB or TR stones those I don't see as an issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    Low level casters have very small SP pools to cast buffs of very short duration. In lower levels, without ship buffs, many wizards will be forced to do nothing but buff the party or chug a lot of pots.
    Quote Originally Posted by susiedupfer View Post
    Before ship buffs, I, as a first lifer cleric, used half of my SP to buff a party for Tempest Spine before we ever started the run. Half of my SP bar. HALF. The other half had to be VERY carefully managed to heal people to the first shrine. Heal ONLY. Wrap your mind around that. There was absolutely no option whatsoever to throw any offensive spells.
    Neither of the statements is true. Listen, people ran many quests for YEARS without ship buffs; TS being an ORIGINAL quest, this is easily done without ship buffs and often 'naked.' Wrap your head around new players not learning the game and how to play to conserve, and you end up with the same instant gratification, pay for easy button solutions Turbine offers up on a Point plate. If you play a caster, help yourself:

    1.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Raid leaders need to be using rangers and paladins to resist buff parties. This was standard practice up to and until ship buffs came along.
    2. Tell people, without guilds or with guilds, to go get their House P buffs. Long before ship buffs were House P buff runs; and they last 30 minutes, easily covering most runs. Now, if they run out (did and do), who wants (wanted) to run back to House P after part 4 of the CO6 chain? No one; so:

    3. Learn to play without buffs or, cast them only when you need them. Play smarter, move a little slower. Don't cast fire resist at the beginning of the quest when you won't need it for another 7 minutes. Don't cast *random buff* on every party member - save it for those who really need it. This is part of learning the game.

    4. Every quest, on normal, is manageable with the existing caster mana pool. If you struggle with your mana pool on Hard and Elite; well, that IS the idea - its in the title of the difficulty setting. Many vets don't struggle because of previous knowledge and twink gear. This is another side effect of the BB. [edit: I didn't say that well. What I meant to say, is this is a side effect in that newer players without a lot of quest reps, don't learn how to play conservatively as they rush up joining groups and being carried by vets on their BB streaks running on difficulties they shouldn't really be doing 'off the bat.'

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    that's why in lower levels players should understand to bring pots. if they don't understand, they need to understand.
    Qhualor, where are new players getting stacks of pots? Seriously. Thinking this is the solution indicates a design flaw at worst. Have to go with TheLegendOfAra response. Not talking about vets, talking about new players to the game and player retention. End game? I am with you.
    Last edited by Hafeal; 07-15-2013 at 08:20 AM.
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  16. #56
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catteras View Post
    Use pots in lower levels. That's funny. I avoid using them in raids when I can. At lower levels, that's funny.

    In lower levels, players need to understand that you should NEVER have to use pots. If people pressure you to do so, drop group and move on...unless they are willing to share pots with you. If you don't understand this, you need to understand this.

    I can see the confusion in my post. What I meant was that players should bring pots or clickies to buff themselves. They shouldn't rely on low level casters for buffs.

  17. #57
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    Qhualor, where are new players getting stacks of pots? Seriously. Thinking this is the solution indicates a design flaw at worst. Have to go with TheLegendOfAra response. Not talking about vets, talking about new players to the game and player retention. End game? I am with you.
    I know when you first start out in the game you have nothing. Other than Turbine giving away a free stack of pots, it takes a little time to accumulate plat and resources. On Korthos, pots drop from breakables like candy and I see a lot from chests. Running normal and learning the basics of the game, even repeating quests to build resources is a good idea before leaving the island. Its not the fault of vets or Turbine if new players want to hurry off before being prepared. Korthos is a great starting point for new players.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drus-the-Axe View Post
    @JOTMON Changing ship elemental buffs to Spell Absorption is a brilliant idea. It scales with players, isn't hideously OP at low level and is still useful at high levels. Though that only addresses protections. Any thoughts on stat buffs or the rest?
    The house buffers are +1 DC/+1Saves/+healing amp,... mostly perks but take it or leave it not that significant.

    Stat buffs for the most part are not a big deal either. most only apply a +1 effect impact from any +2 stat increase, they are nice and I do ensure I get them every time, but even at low level I dont see these as over advantaged vs not getting buffs..

    XP shrine i get every time regardless.. +5 xp bonus means I can get better xp bang for my buck.

    The only ones I see that have a real impact on low level vs high level are the resist shrines, which should have been elemental absoprtion.

    Many players are unprepared for themselves or the party.
    It takes many a while to realize they should be somewhat self prepared and not expect the optimal party or expect another player to follow you around patching up your booboo's.
    I still carry all the various buff potions and wands(resists, stoneskin,etc..) and stacks of cure potions and other stuff on all my toons and adjust inventory as I level.
    I would ask a party members to use them on me before i was able to use them on myself.

    all my non-healing classes carry stacks of scrolls of heal and raise dead and any other usefull scrolls for my level range to pass to unprepared caster types, mostly for those oops i ran out or dont have moments... also creates good karma when you can pass a stack of heal scrolls or mana pots to a newish healer that may not be prepared or well stocked when you end up in a rough quest together or need a little more attention.

    I used to hang out in House P before hitting quests and buff up before heading out, ship just made this easier..
    I never liked that the evoloution of these buffs were not available from the house P vendor for non-guilded toons.
    At lower levels I still occasionaly grab the house P buffs, downside is they have a shorter duration and much smaller level range of usefulness

    I would like to see a Dev go back and give a purchase for plat option to players to purchase the ship buffs from the house P buffer.
    Wouldnt take much to setup a non-guilded ship zone with all buffs available for a plat price with access based on House P favor for price discounts and unlock access to the various buffs...
    At least then players would not have to join a guild or ask to be invited to another guild to get similar access to buffs.
    Last edited by JOTMON; 07-15-2013 at 10:25 AM.
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  19. #59
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    Qhualor, where are new players getting stacks of pots? Seriously. Thinking this is the solution indicates a design flaw at worst. Have to go with TheLegendOfAra response. Not talking about vets, talking about new players to the game and player retention. End game? I am with you.
    Most of the beginning levels are designed for new toons to be butt naked riding a zebra with no resists or buffs etc.

    Nowdays more than ever, all it takes is for that new player to loot one good item, like a level 2 slice/bleed weapon for instance, and they are now rich enough to buy however many potions they will need in lower levels.

    I dont see it as a design flaw because this used to be the solution in the 3-4 years previous to ship buffs (or guild ships even existing for that matter). It is also the solution for new players who dont end up being invited into a "come one come all" guild 5 minutes after they log in. Not every player logs in to a level 50+ guild invite.

    This teaches people to avoid caster damage early. Guild resists teach people to ignore the sea of lightning bolts the kobold shaman are throwing around, which is the most dangerous thing in lower levels, other than traps, which are heavily mitigated by ship buffs as well.

    Player retention is hurt more than helped when new (yes honestly new) players are taught to ignore spell damage because it is trivialized by ship buffs at earlier levels, only to wind up hitting that point where a 30 point resist no longer makes spell damage trivial.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #60
    Community Member Drus-the-Axe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTFM View Post
    Let's see here are my thoughts:

    1. Stone of Experience. This is not a problem. I know a LOT of people that really are not motivated to TR without a box, including me. I'm just tired of running legend lives, done it too much, bored with it....I mean really bored with it. Turbine could flatten the XP curve to motivate some of us burn outs to TR again, but that has nothing to do with the box. The box is fine if you don't like it, don't use it. And BTW, I just ran a 1st life bard and a Bladeforged through these "dead zone" levels you describe. Hit up plenty of pugs. Posted some too. Did not have a problem filling on Khyber. I think the 20's+ epic levels are more dead on Khyber right now than these "dead zone" levels you describe.
    Let me repeat. Stones are not a problem directly. I have no issue with those who use them, most ESPECIALLY any TRs who use them. I have some qualms over 1st lifers using them, but this is really a new-vs-experienced player. If it's your 1st life on any toon then a Stone is unwise, as you won't learn how to handle many facets of the game you'd have learned at lower levels, and you won't have gear appropriate for your level. That can easily lead to a level of dissatisfaction. (I think Iconics are a better approach here - levels plus appropriate gear, make for a better jumpstart experience if you're new to DDO). Experienced players who just want to try a new toon may have some gear (via shared bank) and certainly are familiar with gameplay.

    The problem with Stones is the indirect impacts. The death valley of LFMs while and shortly after Stones are available. Limited LFMs isn't solely due to Stones, but it seems to coincidental for Stones to be unrelated.

    If Stones were restricted to only TRs, or only if there's at least 1 TR on the account, would it be a big deal?
    Problem is I still see problems with that. I'd like to see the LFM issue improved, but it's not clear if this is much of a help. Unfortunately, only Turbine has access to the raw data to say. The rest of us are just whistling into the dark here.

    Quote Originally Posted by RTFM View Post
    2. Ship buffs If you don't like em don't use them. You can even go so far as to ban them in your party. I don't see Ship Buffs causing any "problems" and they are not a problem.
    You don't see a problem making elemental damage a pillow fight at lower levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by RTFM View Post
    With the current decay halt I think its nice a lot of guilds will hit lvl 93, get the big ships and XP shrine. Great playing field leveled.
    Why bother with ships? Why not add a button below Daily Dice "Auto-Buff Me Now" to grant all the buffs of a max'd lvl 90 ship, regardless of player level? Hell, why even add such a button? Why not just give such to every player at creation, just like the Heroic HP bonus?

    Quote Originally Posted by RTFM View Post
    3. Bravery Bonus. This dead horse is still getting beat up? Really?...I can't believe how worked up people get about an OPTIONAL mechanic.
    If it's so optional, why are almost all LFMs elite only? Why do so many of the population refuse to run quests if not elite?

    You obviously don't understand the issue, game theory or human psychology.

    Quote Originally Posted by RTFM View Post
    Opt out if you don't like it.
    BB perverts game mechanics. It's an escalation of power creep, it reduces pools of available people, makes people overreach too often (elite's more punishing than hard or norm, especially in some quests - and nothing frustrates people more than failed expectations, regardless if they were reasonable in the 1st place). I have no qualms with BB directly. I have qualms with what it does to the game overall.

    So let me ask -- if BB only applied to TRs (or even BB-Hard for TR-1, BB-Elite for TR-2+), in what ways would that improve and degrade the game?
    And does the upcoming XP curve alterations change your answer?

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