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  1. #21
    Community Member Drus-the-Axe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Those who TR who ignore the issue of lack of groups in Heroic levels are shortsighted. I have nothing against TRing but what they don't seem to understand is that:

    1. A lot of players don't TR - TRing is not a common denominator in this game.

    2. New players are on their first life and find Heroic levels with no groups.

    3. Players who TR cannot carry the game by themselves - DDO needs those new players to have a good experience so they will stay. Low # of Heroic groups is not a good experience.

    I'm not saying I necessarily agree with the OP as I don't have the metrics. However these are serious issues for the game and dedicated DDO players would do well not to shrug them off.
    I couldn't have put it better. And I never said DOOOOOOOOMMMMMM. I said I have concerns about the long-term health and viability of the game, in part due to this.

    I don't have a good answer to the Stone dilemma. I see their value to some degree to some folks (esp the multi-TR crowd), but I also see problems they create. I've yet to hear (or think of) an option that's better than where we are today. That doesn't mean I like implications of the current state of affairs.

  2. #22
    Community Member Drus-the-Axe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seere View Post
    I agree that the shipbuffs are overpowered. But... they compensate for new folks that have no idea of the ruleset they are about to play in, having likely come from other games with much simpler rules or not played the genre at all. They also free up caster classes to not have to buff. Again, I do not agree with the philosophy behind all this, but I cannot argue with the practicality of it. I'd rather shuttle off the new people to my boat for elite runs, and hope they stick with DDO, and maybe even eventually learn why I asked them to please go buff.

    So you think it's a good thing to 'free up caster classes to not have to buff'? SP should only be for offense?

    Good games present the player with CHOICES. Meaningful choices. Having to choose between getting that better rifle with bigger boom but rare ammo or sticking with the trusty pistol that's easier to load. Making decisions about offense vs defense. Combat vs stealth vs communication. In DDO for casters, one element of that's managing SP. Making tradeoffs - should you cast Resist Energy _and_ Protection From Elements for all elements, or just some.

    If ship buffs are such a 'given', why not just given every toon +10 resist energy every N levels?

    I dislike the OP nature of ship buffs at lower levels (and not scaling well at higher levels). And I dislike the social impacts, especially on newer players who are practically taught 'ship buff == required'.

  3. #23
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drus-the-Axe View Post
    So you think it's a good thing to 'free up caster classes to not have to buff'? SP should only be for offense?

    Good games present the player with CHOICES. Meaningful choices. Having to choose between getting that better rifle with bigger boom but rare ammo or sticking with the trusty pistol that's easier to load. Making decisions about offense vs defense. Combat vs stealth vs communication. In DDO for casters, one element of that's managing SP. Making tradeoffs - should you cast Resist Energy _and_ Protection From Elements for all elements, or just some.

    If ship buffs are such a 'given', why not just given every toon +10 resist energy every N levels?

    I dislike the OP nature of ship buffs at lower levels (and not scaling well at higher levels). And I dislike the social impacts, especially on newer players who are practically taught 'ship buff == required'.
    You're glossing over the compound nature of DDO's scaling. Low level casters have very small SP pools to cast buffs of very short duration. In lower levels, without ship buffs, many wizards will be forced to do nothing but buff the party or chug a lot of pots.

    I'm going through a TR in a group, and a cohort is playing as a wizard for the first time. We have a full group of 6 (thus, we don't pug, because we are a complete static group). He normally plays a Sorc and even at level 12, he over-buffs with just the things you can't get from ship buffs. After buffing the entire party with GH, Blur for those that need it, Jump, etc... he starts the quest at 46% sp. That's with Con-op Greensteel and large guild augment SP slotted. At lower levels there's not enough SP to cover what a quest might need, let alone have enough to spare to mis-manage some in a moment of panic.

  4. #24
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    You're glossing over the compound nature of DDO's scaling. Low level casters have very small SP pools to cast buffs of very short duration. In lower levels, without ship buffs, many wizards will be forced to do nothing but buff the party or chug a lot of pots.

    I'm going through a TR in a group, and a cohort is playing as a wizard for the first time. We have a full group of 6 (thus, we don't pug, because we are a complete static group). He normally plays a Sorc and even at level 12, he over-buffs with just the things you can't get from ship buffs. After buffing the entire party with GH, Blur for those that need it, Jump, etc... he starts the quest at 46% sp. That's with Con-op Greensteel and large guild augment SP slotted. At lower levels there's not enough SP to cover what a quest might need, let alone have enough to spare to mis-manage some in a moment of panic.
    that's why in lower levels players should understand to bring pots. if they don't understand, they need to understand.

  5. #25
    Community Member Zibowskij's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Theese are not real problems.
    About the lack of LFMs: DDO population is down. There's a lack of LFMs through all lvls, even on epic. Plus, since there are less people online, players rely more on guildies, friends, etc.

    P.S. If you don't like the buffs mechanics just don't use them. If you don't want to wait for people to buff, start the quest by yourself/put IP on the LFM

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    You're glossing over the compound nature of DDO's scaling. Low level casters have very small SP pools to cast buffs of very short duration. In lower levels, without ship buffs, many wizards will be forced to do nothing but buff the party or chug a lot of pots.

    I'm going through a TR in a group, and a cohort is playing as a wizard for the first time. We have a full group of 6 (thus, we don't pug, because we are a complete static group). He normally plays a Sorc and even at level 12, he over-buffs with just the things you can't get from ship buffs. After buffing the entire party with GH, Blur for those that need it, Jump, etc... he starts the quest at 46% sp. That's with Con-op Greensteel and large guild augment SP slotted. At lower levels there's not enough SP to cover what a quest might need, let alone have enough to spare to mis-manage some in a moment of panic.
    Ship buffs (heck most buffs) are not necessary at low levels. I run with a heroic group in which our casters consist of a Sorc and a Fvs. Both have limited # of spells at low level and the FvS is caster-oriented, not melee. So there are not many buff spells between us. Yet we run Elite BB just fine - no Blur, no GH, no Haste, etc.

  7. #27
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    You're glossing over the compound nature of DDO's scaling. Low level casters have very small SP pools to cast buffs of very short duration. In lower levels, without ship buffs, many wizards will be forced to do nothing but buff the party or chug a lot of pots.

    I'm going through a TR in a group, and a cohort is playing as a wizard for the first time. We have a full group of 6 (thus, we don't pug, because we are a complete static group). He normally plays a Sorc and even at level 12, he over-buffs with just the things you can't get from ship buffs. After buffing the entire party with GH, Blur for those that need it, Jump, etc... he starts the quest at 46% sp. That's with Con-op Greensteel and large guild augment SP slotted. At lower levels there's not enough SP to cover what a quest might need, let alone have enough to spare to mis-manage some in a moment of panic.
    I don't know if this is not obvious to you, but low level casters have to cast spells, including buffs, more intelligently and carefully. Instead of just auto-buffing everyone down the list of everything the caster has to offer, try only casting buffs that are immediately needed and provide the most benefit.

    The argument that low level casters can't buff like high level casters so ship buffs should be available is not logical.

  8. #28
    Community Member gaffneyks's Avatar
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    wow. If this came to pass I think that would finally be it and I would move on to another game.

    The biggest thing I hate about this game is the xp grind when I TR. So you want to take away 3 things that mitigate the grind.

    You are solving the wrong problem here, the lack of groups is caused by low population. Every time turbine nerfs something or makes wholesale changes they lose some people. If they are not bringing in new people faster than those leaving....

  9. #29
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    I don't know if this is not obvious to you, but low level casters have to cast spells, including buffs, more intelligently and carefully. Instead of just auto-buffing everyone down the list of everything the caster has to offer, try only casting buffs that are immediately needed and provide the most benefit.

    The argument that low level casters can't buff like high level casters so ship buffs should be available is not logical.

    It's obvious to me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    You're glossing over the compound nature of DDO's scaling. Low level casters have very small SP pools to cast buffs of very short duration. In lower levels, without ship buffs, many wizards will be forced to do nothing but buff the party or chug a lot of pots.

    I'm going through a TR in a group, and a cohort is playing as a wizard for the first time. We have a full group of 6 (thus, we don't pug, because we are a complete static group). He normally plays a Sorc and even at level 12, he over-buffs with just the things you can't get from ship buffs. After buffing the entire party with GH, Blur for those that need it, Jump, etc... he starts the quest at 46% sp. That's with Con-op Greensteel and large guild augment SP slotted. At lower levels there's not enough SP to cover what a quest might need, let alone have enough to spare to mis-manage some in a moment of panic.

  10. #30
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaffneyks View Post
    wow. If this came to pass I think that would finally be it and I would move on to another game.

    The biggest thing I hate about this game is the xp grind when I TR. So you want to take away 3 things that mitigate the grind.

    You are solving the wrong problem here, the lack of groups is caused by low population. Every time turbine nerfs something or makes wholesale changes they lose some people. If they are not bringing in new people faster than those leaving....
    when you say nerfs, you mean like dungeon scaling so that its easier to run a quest solo than it is to group with others? outside of a small per cent of quests and raids, many people group for the speedy completion more than anything else.

    BB does mitigate the grind with that extra elite xp, but through heroic leveling is there a reason to run quests besides xp? im sure some do it for loot, fun or helping someone else, but that heroic loot can be easily farmed as a higher level and it seems more players do it that way than not. I know I do.

    the skipping stones was another way for Turbine to profit, only to shoot themselves in the foot at the cost of short gain or for quarterly spiking. remember, Turbine put the xp grind in place and than offered ways to reduce the grind at a cost. with grouping already hard to find for those that liked to find some on the lfm when it wasn't always easy to get a group with guildies/friends if they were in the level range and if they hadn't already done elite, adding skipping stones at cost to leap frog over 8-10 levels made grouping even more hard.

    im glad you support BB, skipping stones and dungeon scaling the way it is, but they are 3 of the bigger reasons why it is or it may seem to some people that population is low. they are also reasons why some players would get frustrated and want to leave DDO.

  11. #31
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drus-the-Axe View Post
    At last! A real response.


    No one is 'forced' to run elite, but the social and psychological aspects make it hard for many to avoid it. This has been discussed regularly on the forums. The vast majority of LFMs are elite. Hey, that's great, if you're up for it. But not everyone is. Doesn't stop them from having eyes bigger than their heads, as my mother used to say. I've seen too many parties are refuse to do hard or norm because it'll break their BB streak yet wipe mercilelessly.

    Before BB there were plenty of Norm + Hard LFMs up. Elites too, but not overwhelmingly so. Higher difficulty meant more XP and shot at better loot, but overall it seemed more balanced than where we are today.



    So if 90%+ of all LFMs require elite, you don't see that as a bad thing?
    Actually unless you are able to speed run elite Mr Cow went and did some videos and proved that hards and normal farming is faster than elite streaking. So what's happening has a few components.
    1) No one wants to believe they aren't uber and ready for elite
    2) If 90% of lfms are for elite that means 10% are not if the players as a whole wanted more lower diff runs there would be more.

    I actually post groups for hards sometimes on farming quests when I've already ran elite, without fail they fill. So it's not that you can't post a group for a hard, it's that the people that are willing to lead post elite. There is no fix for this other than more people per server.

    If it were that simple, why is there a dramatic drop in LFMs in Stone level range when Stones hit the market, and a perceptible rise a month or two after? It varies a bit as there's multiple variables (time of year, DDO updates, other new 'hot' game releases) but there does seem to be a repeating pattern observable with the naked eye. Ascribing this due to sudden and coincidental large uptick in closed/guild/channel grouping with a coincidental drop fo same seems a bit of a reach. Are you sure about the cause and effect there?

    Diminishing playerbase is an issue. My assertion is Stones don't help - in fact, as currently implemented, they hurt (and maybe more bad than good, though that's complicated and only Turbine has the data to make any such claims). If you want to bring in new blood, and retain a % of them, you need a game that's engaging and fun, AND with a learning curve and community that doesn't helps.

    Not to say Stones are the only reason behind shrinking headcount. nor did I say they're all bad. I think iconics are one attempt to do what Stones were aimed at -- to get people to high-hero/epic levels so they can run in Faerun. Iconics seem to be a better approach. Between Iconics, a Vet-15 option and Stones, which do you think are better or worse for DDO in the long-term?
    Well from my experience people buying stones are people that are zerging to 20 for a past life and chasing completionist. As a general rule these people don't post lfms to begin with but run with guild/channel. That said most the times I've seen stones sold there has also been something going on elsewhere, the last otto's was when nwo started open beta if I remember right and this bigby's stone is pretty close to the start of nwo going live.

    It's all bits. In theory, anything's possible. But the only difference between theory and practice is, in theory, there's no difference between theory and practice...

    Code is a funny thing. Never confuse 'perceived value' and 'effort to create', and don't assume just because it's been done once it's repeatable. Software is more art than science, and more custom built than mass produced. Tell an engineer to build a bridge and they'll do it like they've done for centuries. Of sure, newer materials and whatnot make it easier, but it's largely repeating past experience. Software development is almost never repeating past work. So even though it may sound easy -- 'just do here like you did there' -- in practice it's rarely like effort.

    Fewer but bigger servers doesn't seem so simple, given evidence to date and past remarks from Turbine. Quite the opposite. We've heard (directly, or hinted at) essentially DDO's code is older and more complicated to modify than LoTRO, but not as bad as AC2. And even LoTRO has multiple servers. And non-technically, merging servers poses its own issues (e.g. name collision). I can understand why Turbine hasn't done this. And longer-term, it's questionable if that's all that helpful.

    And Eve Online is a rather unusual game, technically and socially. Good for them. But things they do well are unlikely to apply to DDO.
    Actually the way eve breaks up it's zones is really similar to ddo with it's instances. I think it would be very possible to accomplish it in theory. But I acknowledge there would probably be a lot of work to it. I do however think that it would be the best thing for the game.


    It's got nothing with people outperforming me. I hold my own quite well thank you. Personally I almost never get ship buffs (yeah, I walk the talk) because I don't see the point of paying money to play a game so I can zip through it and not play the game. I enjoy the path as well as the destination. But that's MY choice. Others are free to do as they choose.

    What DOES concern me is two-fold:
    1. Perceived 'necessity' of ship buffs
    2. Social dynamics

    I've been in parties where I've been kicked because I don't get ship buffs. Despite having more HP and SP than most, game knowledge, how to work in a team and how to play to my toon's strengths, every few weeks I seem to run into someone who thinks no buffs == deadweight. That's an unhealthy outlook, and sadly one I've found often enough to find disturbing. It also feeds the 'power creep' and makes Turbine's job harder to provide a fun and (sufficiently) compelling game.

    And there's the crackaddicts. The ones who can't conceive of running a quest w/o ship buffs, or even if their ship buffs are 'running a little low' and might run out before they finish the quest. It's fun to party with folks who every quest or two need to run off for 'their hit'. Hey, that's their call. But when the rest of the party has to wait around for crackaddicts, it degrades the 'fun' factor.
    My experience has been totally opposite than yours then, I've never seen someone kicked for not getting ship buffs. I have seen someone say ok make sure you have resists or let me know if you need a ship invite as I won't be passing them. Still that's not kicking. As far as people going back for them and planning their runs around having them at the end, very little of that has to do with the buffs that you're talking about and everything to do with the experience shrine. Legend lives have massive grind to them and that 5% xp shrine adds up. However I've never seen someone go back to shrine more than approximately every 45 mins, or if an extremely long quest is up next. Honestly after 45 mins to an hour you should be taking a break anyways for at least a couple mins, it's actually not healthy to stay in place longer than that at a chair without stretching.

  12. #32
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    that's why in lower levels players should understand to bring pots. if they don't understand, they need to understand.
    Drinking a potion = fail outside of some raids.

  13. #33
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    Ships buffs are stupid. They always have been. They slow the game down considerably and give way too much advantage at low levels. In some cases, the ship buffs are more powerful and don't stack with character buffs, leaving some characters rather redundant and less attractive. Giving it some perspective, from a TR point of view, for playing through all classes to 20 you get +2 to all attributes. Or you can hop on a high level ship and get them on a first life, first level toon. Seems a bit unbalanced to me. I think scaling ship buffs to level wouldn't hurt a thing, and would make them far less attractive at all levels.
    3-5 minutes(being overly slow like I am) every 45 minutes of questing to refill buffs doesn't slow anything down any more than someone afking to get a drink or bio. I can't think of a single buff outside of the resists that doesn't stack with meaningful player buffs that would make a class redundant. And really, I've never in all my years playing the game thought, "Oh I'll take that sorc for this quest! He has resist energy!"

    I don't see ship buffs as an issue, because let's be honest here, if you have access to any meaningful buffs for more that a few quests, you in the game to stay. New players don't have access to them, and they don't even know about them unless they group with someone who has a ship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    that's why in lower levels players should understand to bring pots. if they don't understand, they need to understand.
    Really? That has got to be the most absurd thing I have ever read on these forums. Let us put aside the fact that outside of vets, No one has pots, and realize that if you're drinking a pot outside of anything at end game(as a vet), you are doing something very, very wrong. What people need to realize is that you conserve your SP as best you can and if you play smart 90% of the time it should last you to the next shrine. If it doesn't pick up a bloody axe and kill something. People thinking, "I'm a caster. I only cast." annoy me to no end outside of end game if they don't know how to manage their SP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Drinking a potion = fail outside of some raids.
    So much this.
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  14. #34
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drus-the-Axe View Post
    So you think it's a good thing to 'free up caster classes to not have to buff'? SP should only be for offense?
    12x15x5=900

    900 spell points to give people resists. Not much mana stays for offensive casting, especially if you have to give them blurs or ghs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Drinking a potion = fail outside of some raids.
    There is more than 1 kind of potion in this game.

    Resist pots, jump pots and rage pots should be in everyone's inventory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Random Person #2 View Post
    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  15. #35
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    1. A lot of players don't TR - TRing is not a common denominator in this game.
    Don't TR you say?
    So what they do?

    Endgame contend in DDO is weak.
    Sad but true, there are only 2 endgame raids (one is too short to be called a real raid, and the other is worst mechanics in history of DDO packed together).
    And there are of course many easy epic quests, providing decent loot, assuming you farm quest 100 times because of terrible drop rates, which becomes boring very quick.

    Apart from TRing there is nothing much to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Random Person #2 View Post
    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  16. #36
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    There is more than 1 kind of potion in this game.

    Resist pots, jump pots and rage pots should be in everyone's inventory.
    From the context of the post I read I assumed he meant sp pots. I can agree with the rest and would like to add remove blindness, curse, disease, poison and lesser restoration pots. Jump I don't really agree with completely as you usually need at least a 30pt jump to make some complicated jumps and that requires either a high level clicky or being a caster.

  17. #37
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    From the context of the post I read I assumed he meant sp pots. I can agree with the rest and would like to add remove blindness, curse, disease, poison and lesser restoration pots. Jump I don't really agree with completely as you usually need at least a 30pt jump to make some complicated jumps and that requires either a high level clicky or being a caster.
    From the context I understood, if people would have resist pots, casters wouldn't need to spend lots of mana on buffing them
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Random Person #2 View Post
    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drus-the-Axe View Post
    So you think it's a good thing to 'free up caster classes to not have to buff'? SP should only be for offense?

    Good games present the player with CHOICES. Meaningful choices. Having to choose between getting that better rifle with bigger boom but rare ammo or sticking with the trusty pistol that's easier to load.

    DDO tried the choice thing out of the gate, back in '07. It didn't work.

    Part of the problem with choice is it requires the players have a working knowledge of the game.

    Like I said, I do not like the idea of dumbing things down or nerfing them to suit players that can't handle the rules. But it is what it is.

    Since this conversation has been rehashed in these forums about 9,004 times since the game released, I am going to vacate this thread. I don't have anything more to add.

  19. #39
    Community Member RTFM's Avatar
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    Default The OP issues are not problems

    Let's see here are my thoughts:

    1. Stone of Experience. This is not a problem. I know a LOT of people that really are not motivated to TR without a box, including me. I'm just tired of running legend lives, done it too much, bored with it....I mean really bored with it. Turbine could flatten the XP curve to motivate some of us burn outs to TR again, but that has nothing to do with the box. The box is fine if you don't like it, don't use it. And BTW, I just ran a 1st life bard and a Bladeforged through these "dead zone" levels you describe. Hit up plenty of pugs. Posted some too. Did not have a problem filling on Khyber. I think the 20's+ epic levels are more dead on Khyber right now than these "dead zone" levels you describe.

    2. Ship buffs If you don't like em don't use them. You can even go so far as to ban them in your party. I don't see Ship Buffs causing any "problems" and they are not a problem. With the current decay halt I think its nice a lot of guilds will hit lvl 93, get the big ships and XP shrine. Great playing field leveled. It was level in the first place because normally someone in the party has a high lvl ship.

    3. Bravery Bonus. This dead horse is still getting beat up? Really? I mean c'mon if you don't like BB don't run with one. Ignore it. You can cap a toon just fine without it. I did most of my completionist lives before BB, if you don't like it just ignore it. I break bonus all the time. Who cares. If you think its causing grouping problems, then don't group with people who are sensitive about their BB. I can't believe how worked up people get about an OPTIONAL mechanic. Opt out if you don't like it.
    RTFM, DOOF, and MACHINATION on Khyber. Guild: Toy Soldiers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drus-the-Axe View Post
    Changing ship elemental buffs to Spell Absorption is a brilliant idea. It scales with players, isn't hideously OP at low level and is still useful at high levels. Though that only addresses protections. Any thoughts on stat buffs or the rest?
    Because none of the rest are anywhere near as overpowering compared to the content.

    As for the dismissives, explain to me why a 1st level toon should be able to get level 11+ enhancements and protections, w/o cost, for longer than level 20 casters can provide?

    Explain to me why a level 1 toon should get level 11+ magics, when items are level gated? Why does gear have ML, and ship buffs don't?

    All I see from naysayers so far is naysaying. That's your opinion. Fair enough. Care to back it up with an explanation? I did mine.

    I'd like to hear an explanation why BB, ship buffs and stones don't contribute to the problems I described (or if they do, why you think these are not problems).
    Mostly because it doesn't scale the advantage of guild membership to one's level. Which is actually healthy for the game, despite what one who seems rather anti-guild may think. While the resists can be a bit over the top at the lowest levels, the other buffs really aren't and should be looked at by their actual effect. Rather than arbitrarily comparing them to similar effects that generally come with a lot more on the side (sure top end stat buffs compare to part of the completionist feat, but they don't comer with at least one of each passive past life feat, at least 4 build points, the gear acquired along the way, the skill bonuses, or the fact that all of the above stacks with them).

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