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  1. #1
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    Default Wizard archmage Enchantments no longer able to pick a minor second school for slas.

    Which will break alot of builds and drive even more people to being PM.

    I play an illusionist/minor conjuration for the cheap web, for when stuff is immune to PK (alot more stuff than necro pm) and this change ruins my build as well as the (few) people who don't play PM alrdy.

    People were already saying arch mage is weaker than pm outside rare evo wf am builds with out of lore destinys. The only way illusionist/aburation/transmution will be viable now is if you add more new spells.

    Please revert this change and add option to pick a second school for level 1-2 slas, alot of people used this for cheap hypno or web. What advantage of a archmage (1dc?) over self healing, a stong pet and being able to insta kill?
    Last edited by idle1; 07-13-2013 at 11:58 AM.

  2. #2
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Well, a archmage can pick the pet too. And if you are warforged, better as a PM focused toon (you don't need spend action points in useless forms)

    The archmage capstone is stronger than PM casptone, too. Now a wizard won't be archmage or PM, now a wizard must spread his points between the two trees. The general wizard enhacements are all in the archmage tree, for example.

    I want general class trees, but this iteration is waaaay better. Spending between the two trees warforges and fleshies are good.
    Last edited by Iriale; 07-14-2013 at 12:51 PM.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  3. #3
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    Want cheap hypno and web? can do that with scrolls and wands. If you want more cheap SLAs consider the Races instead of your class. Elves and Half-elves get some very nice SLAs like displacement, and now with the Free feat obtained from toughness you could take the dragonmark of a race for more.

    This last thing is going to be the hardest thing for people to swallow, Toughness is such a staple on current live I found it quite hard not to select it as my first feat while creating characters.
    1) "Quijenoth" Main Arcane Caster, 2life PM, 3life BrdTR, 4life FvS.
    2) "Vallaes" Melee Tank build, 2nd life Barbarian.
    3) "Elvraema" Experiments, 1-Mnk6/FvS14 Solo build. 2-"Dronker"

  4. #4

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    Scrolls and wands have a DC much much lower than the actual spell. They don't cut it for a cheap web where there is no effect on save.

  5. #5
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    True but then not having SLAs is hardly a reason to scream doom. They are nice to have but I wouldn't base the effectiveness of a build on how few a spell points web costs me - not having web vs having web however would definitely cause issues. Thankfully you can still memorise the spell and its now far cheaper to reduce the Metamagic costs in the new enhancement system reducing the overall cost of spells globally.
    1) "Quijenoth" Main Arcane Caster, 2life PM, 3life BrdTR, 4life FvS.
    2) "Vallaes" Melee Tank build, 2nd life Barbarian.
    3) "Elvraema" Experiments, 1-Mnk6/FvS14 Solo build. 2-"Dronker"

  6. #6
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    Well as I said in my first post, I don't want to have to be a palemaster or spec in necromancy, for roleplay reasons for one, I'd think they'd be rather rare in lore, there should be another stong prestige options for the good hero. I have a bard for enchantment focus. There needs to be new spells if they insist on 1 school only archmages.

    Weird, polymorph (insta kill for transmutation) (Some kind of banishment/teleport insta kill for abjuration) would be that easy to make schools a bit more viable, let necro have the aoe instant kills, and maybe make them slas, if you don't want wizards getting more general instant kills.

    Whats the point of being a pure archmage anymore, pm got no real nerfs and it was stronger pres already. God help if pm was nerfed in same way Arch mage has, forums would explode but because few people play am outside the shilardi spam, this issue will mostly be ignored. Wands and scrolls don't cut it, unless they ever fix the dc issue.

    I agree with second reply. Would have been nice if they had general class trees. Its not just about sp cost, its why did they remove it? At least a dev comment explaining why it was so overpowered? (lol) Many classes are getting lots of new slas, (yey caster arti) don't see wizard getting any.

    (Excuse my english hehe tried to fix a long post.)
    Last edited by idle1; 07-16-2013 at 06:06 AM.

  7. #7
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Lol. Seriously. Archmage is the best tree because it has ALL the general wizard enhancements. ALL wizards need to spend heavily in archmage. PM is a true prestige, very specialized, yes. But I repeat what I said I other post: we have to stop thinking about unique prestiges in the current system. I have asked, begged and pleaded on multiple occasions for general class trees. But designers have ignored these requests and we will not get that. So we have to think in terms of the new system.

    New wizards will not be archmages or pale masters. To spread between multiple class trees and use minimal racial enhancements is mandatory now. The “points spent in the tree” thing causes that to spend on the racial tree is suicidal. The class enhancements are spread by several trees, and this makes mandatory to use multiple trees. The prestiges are dead as specializations. We must use now multiple trees.

    PMs are not better because there are not PM toons now. Now there are warforged wizards and fleshies wizards. Former heals with repair spells, second with undead healing or cocoon. You can focus more in a tree or other, but you need BOTH. If you are warforged, you don’t want the shrouds but will want more spellpower. If you were before a PM fleshie for the undead healing, you need yet the shrouds, but you need too a lot of stuff from archmage.

    Wizards trees are special, because they have all general class enhancements in only tree… archmage tree (other classes have a lot of more spreading—the monk and rogue builds that I have done in lammania are a lot of more crazy in spreading). Archmage tree is the general wizard tree with some spell like and spell mastery. PM tree have a lot of very weak enhancements (shrouds useless, hit points overprized, spell like very very weak and costly) and a few good enhancements. But still we must stop thinking in archmages and pale masters. The prestiges are dead as specializations. Now we must look at how to build solid wizards from the new system, spending in several trees.

    This is a different system. We have to learn to live with him. (No time to redesign the system entirely- the release is in August) I love some new things. I hate others. But while ours toons are not gimped, ok. If you have all you want of the archmage tree, spend in pale master for a functional necrotic ray and more spellpower or in the racial tree. You don’t need pick undead forms if you don’t want them. If you have to pick enhancements you don’t want… it’s not different for a fleshie. Fleshies that need the shrouds have to pick several useless shrouds, this is more annoying. Ignore the name of the tree. Names are not representatives now. Prestiges are not prestiges now. As wizard you will be defined by the spells you use in the game, not by the name of the enhancement trees.

    You are not screwed for don’t have one spell-like. These spell like only saves a few spell points. Pick all metamagic reduction enhancements and you will gain cheaper spells. Now you gain more spell points. I have had several archmages without spell-likes in live and they were very good wizards. As archmage and as PM you cares about DC spell. This is the only more important thing for a wizard. A wizard need good spells and good DC, a spell-like more or less don’t destroy any build. Yes, you need spell point conservation, but one spell like don’t solve this.

    Although I think they could add a spell like sellector more in the last tier of archmage without to change the entire tree, but It's not terrible.
    Last edited by Iriale; 07-16-2013 at 09:59 AM.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  8. #8
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    Default Archmage

    I do like the Archmage tree. Even more now, that the element spells are all included in one of the selections and you are not hindered. But with that being said, it also limits you on what type of elemental damage you want to be able to do within the new system. Before you could spend the points on all enhancements related to cold or acid or what ever or have a mix with a few more points going to just one. That is something I do miss.

    Its nice to have the Core enhancements give you spells, but I really don't want them. My Mage has been an enchanter/evocation wiz. I have found that the enchantment spells are a little bit better, but at a cost of losing more Damage Per Cast (DPC) on the evocation spells.

    On the next round of testing I plan to create a new wiz, TR that wiz to compare how the corrent one is. This will be somewhat different build since the introduction of Spellcraft skill, but would like to see how it plays out.

    My initial though is that once these changes go live, it may be slightly better to TR my high lvl characters, before starting to farm for ED points and an ED destiny be taken with you on TR. (just a last thought)

  9. #9
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    it also limits you on what type of elemental damage you want to be able to do within the new system. Before you could spend the points on all enhancements related to cold or acid or what ever or have a mix with a few more points going to just one. That is something I do miss.
    Seriously? Now you gain spellpower in *all* elements, not in one or in few (well, sonic not, poor sonic spells). Have you built one toon in lammnia?

    I LOVE this change. Wizard is about flexibility of spells. If you only have strong spells of a few elements, these versatility is a joke (better then to be sorcerer, more damage as specialist) A generalist wizard is the best wizard.
    Last edited by Iriale; 07-16-2013 at 10:18 AM.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by quijenoth View Post
    Want cheap hypno and web? can do that with scrolls and wands.




    lolwat.. Really now. Since when where either of those viable in any elite quest? DCs will never be high enough, specially with the current scaling.


    I noticed this loss of SLA already.. it's terrible and I really hope it doesn't go live. Losing Web SLA is a death sentence for most viable Archmage builds.
    Zaphear(Completionist), Lugziurious, Lugzmeat Shield, Lugzii, Lugziii, Lugzsing Measong - De Profundis

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaphear View Post
    lolwat.. Really now. Since when where either of those viable in any elite quest? DCs will never be high enough, specially with the current scaling.


    I noticed this loss of SLA already.. it's terrible and I really hope it doesn't go live. Losing Web SLA is a death sentence for most viable Archmage builds.
    Yeah ok so I was being sarcastic with the scroll wand thing. but really how does not having web as an SLA a death sentence....

    Currently on live web costs 3 sp and your overall spell point pool is reduced by 100 (although you gain 100 from archmage pre) and costs you spell focus conjuration as a feat.

    Currently on lam you don't need the feat and it costs you 15 sp to cast

    Heightened to 9th it will cost you an extra 35 sps (50 total). with Efficient Heighten x2 that drops to 36 sp. with master of magic (AM) that's down to 19sp. Ive not tested it personally but I hear the efficient heighten from sorcerer stacks so you can possibly get heighten down to +0 sp cost.

    same applies to quicken

    so spellpoints might be an issue - or are they...

    currently on live wizards gain 110 spell points from energy of the scholar enhancements.

    on Lam a wizard can spend 75 AP in archmage tree getting +2 sp per point (+150) energy of the scholar grants an additional +90 for an extra 130sp over live.

    I could analyse this further and look at what an AM sacrifices to get a secondary SLA web compared to lam but people have already mentioned the changes to wizards and spell power.


    Now on the flip side I do personally feel they need to re-evaluate some of the spell choices for the SLAs. As a core ability some are pretty lame (looking at necromancy) and it would be nice if they got boosted to 1st 3rd 5th 7th then 8th or 9th level spells on some of the schools.

    Id like to see
    Abjuration: Shield, Protection from Energy, Dismissal, Banishment, Mordenkainen's Disjunction
    Conjuration: Mage Armor, Web, Stoneskin, Acid Fog, Greater Teleport, Summon Monster IX
    Enchantment: Hypnotism, Heroism, Hold Monster, Hold Person Mass, Dominate Monster
    Evocation: Magic Missle, Fireball, Cyclonic Blast, Prismatic Spray, Meteor Swarm
    Illusion: Hypnotic Pattern, Displacement, Phantasmal Killer, Shadow walk, Invisibility Mass (god they need more illusion spells in this game!)
    Necromancy: Cause Fear, Halt Undead, Waves of Fatigue, Finger of Death, Energy Drain
    Transmutation: Jump, Knock, Haste, Stone to Flesh, Flesh to Stone
    1) "Quijenoth" Main Arcane Caster, 2life PM, 3life BrdTR, 4life FvS.
    2) "Vallaes" Melee Tank build, 2nd life Barbarian.
    3) "Elvraema" Experiments, 1-Mnk6/FvS14 Solo build. 2-"Dronker"

  12. #12
    Community Member Dylvish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post

    I LOVE this change. Wizard is about flexibility of spells. If you only have strong spells of a few elements, these versatility is a joke (better then to be sorcerer, more damage as specialist) A generalist wizard is the best wizard.
    While it is nice that you like this change, why is it so hard for you to accept that not everyone does? While I, for example, like the fact that you can now make a decent viable generalist mage, I do not like the fact that you have next to NO CHOICE but to make the generalist mage. They kind of swung from one side to the other a bit too far, and that I am not a fan of.

    Many things will be better in the release, and I am looking forward to it, but there are some good things that are also being lost, which is a shame, as some of them I do not think needed to be. Try to keep in mind not everyone will be as excited as you are about this particular change, as an example, and they have every right to be, as it may be removing something they have been personally enjoying for a while.

    ~Dyvout

  13. #13
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Yes, I love can do a generalist wizard. I can’t do in live now and this is a shame. The arcane specialist is the sorcerer. In D&D the best wizards always have been the generalist wizards

    BUT I don’t love the new system.

    We lack of options because we only have one unique prestige now: pale master. I've been saying since alpha we need general class trees and several smaller, specialized prestiges. A player should not be forced to give up general class enhancements needed to run the class- their choices should reside in the prestige. And why we do not have choices now? Because we only have one prestige! We need almost all of the general class enhancements (which are all in the Archmage tree) yes or yes. In live we spend most of our points in general enhancements. On live, archmages and pale masters have almost the same general enhancents. If you think, the points that we spend on prestige are comparatively few. But are these the ones who really made the difference between wizards. But oh! in this new system we only have a prestige. That leaves little room for specialization, as well as that we have only one spell-like chain and a true prestige (many of whose enhancements are a waste, as we must take shrouds that we don’t want)

    I think Archmage tree should become the general wizard class tree. It’s almost perfect now, with their generalist enhancements. Devs should move the spell-likes and spell mastery to other tree, a true prestige tree (for specialist wizards—the spell-like linked to spell focus are thing of specialist, nor of a generalist archmage), and we could to gain more choices. The prestiges can be smaller than general tree. In live, the prestiges are smaller in points too.

    The problem is not in the generalist wizard enhancements, Dylvish. They are a big improvement. The problem is that there is only one prestige!!!! For this we can’t choose much.

    If designers cease to put everything into prestiges, and saw the need for general class trees, they would see how easy it would be to create a robust system without giving up the new ideas. Many of the changes are pretty good. The problem is that the organization of this new system is flawed.

    All in prestige and points spent in the tree are big, big, big mistakes.

    But I have said this many times in the forums. I have said this in the surveys. And yet the designers do not listen. They want to release the new system next month, so I have lost faith in getting them to change the organization of this new system. I hope they have to change it in the future, and while I wait they do not change the good they have created, such as the generalist wizard enhancements and some of the new enhancements. Forcing to choose spellpower lines was never a good idea, because it makes many useless spells and becomes in a joke the wizard’s ability to change spells. What we need is more true prestiges, for to give us differences between wizards.
    Last edited by Iriale; 07-22-2013 at 04:55 AM.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  14. #14
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    I'm also disappointed that we're still limited to one school's set of SLAs.

    I appreciate that Archmage is now awesome for Pale Masters to splash and I suspect that accounts for nearly all of the positive feedback about changes to this tree.

    Illusion AMs aren't viable now.

    Illusion spells don't affect enemy casters (will save too high), can do nothing to undead (unlike PMs who can undeath to death them with their necro DC), or a surprisingly large assortment of other enemies. We needed other things to do in those frequently occurring situations, like cheap Web and Hypno.

    10SP PK was great, but wasn't an AoE kill like Wail, or Circle of Death, which largely made up the SP differential.

    I'd cast 3 SP Web probably just as often as PK; similarly 1 SP Hypno, though I can deal without that since casting it isn't as taxing. It's just not viable now. Too often I would exhaust my blue bar a long way from a shrine.

    I truly hoped something would change in this tree since the alpha, but it's just for splashing now:
    -PM's likely will take it to the Enervation SLA, but not to T5 since T5 PM grants +2 Necro DC via lich form bonus and the direct boost.
    -Shiradi Evocation AMs could certainly do something more interesting in either PM or even in their racial tree than take it past MM and CM.
    -Mass Hold bots (specializing in Enchantment) might take it to T5, but that's a poor choice and the good ones will go T5 PM instead.

    -Illusion AMs (the only other kind that really existed I think) are gone. It's just not a viable spec anymore. If I did plan to run one again, being that it was literally my favourite spec of the many I have played, I would go T5 PM.

    Having said all of that, the tree is fixable. Put at least a second (and potentially third) SLA in tier 5, one going to T2 (for web) and one going to T1 (for hypno). <-- I appreciate that sounds restrictive, and it is, but it's nearly identical to the functional restraints on live for AMs - and obviously far less restrictive than the tree as it stands.

    The sole reason AM were enjoyable on live were SLAs. I just... I ... I don't know. I don't get it. I don't get why other people aren't up in arms.

    I can't imagine a single reason why people think it's not an issue apart from never having played an AM.
    "Use wands and/or scrolls!", "Heighten is still cheap at 19SP per web", "AMs do more damage through higher spellpower" are all fascinating tid-bits that don't detract from the annihilation of the spec.

    I think it's because 90%+ of end-game casters were PMs and they have been the vast majority interested enough to give feedback.

    Finally, yes, the new +5 Illusion DC gloves are nice (leading to a standing DC of 68 if you're a perfectly geared completionist drow and that's ignoring temp boosts like House D pots, Store Pots, Joy of the Queen and Spellsurge), but they could be +15DC and to spec as an Illusion AM would still be an idiotic decision.

    EDIT: And the Improved Heighten Enhancements are apparently now Tier 4 not Tier 5 of AM?! I take back what I said about even MassHoldbots going to T5 AM.

    Not One Wizard Who Is Playing Endgame Will Go To T5 AM.
    Last edited by Deathdefy; 08-08-2013 at 12:17 AM.
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  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    Not One Wizard Who Is Playing Endgame Will Go To T5 AM.
    Take a look at the Archmage Tier 5 ability "Arcane Supremacy".
    It's the bees' knees.

  16. #16
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    I just tried to remake my WF AM 18 wiz / 2 mnk and was largely happy with the results. Only real drawback seems to be a significant loss of Spell Points. Am I overlooking or will an AM have far less SP than before?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    Take a look at the Archmage Tier 5 ability "Arcane Supremacy".
    It's the bees' knees.
    Perhaps it is. However, the SLA choices leading up to it are not very useful, and players can only pick one school.

    I really wish would pick from a wider range of SLAs for that one school if we really have to be limited to one school or SLAs, or be able to pick one of any school from each spell level. This is one of the major weaknesses of Archmage on live, and likely one of the reasons Pale Master is so popular.

  18. #18
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    I really wish would pick from a wider range of SLAs for that one school if we really have to be limited to one school or SLAs, or be able to pick one of any school from each spell level. This is one of the major weaknesses of Archmage on live, and likely one of the reasons Pale Master is so popular.
    This is not true. Pale master in live is more popular because archmage is a prestige for only a race (warforged) and pale master is for all fleshies races. Warforged resistances + selfhealing or undead form (selfhealing) + fortification and incremented hps are a BIG difference in survival. Fleshies don't have alternatives to pale master. If you choose to be a fleshie archmage you will be a weak toon with less survival. And the EP don't change this. Fleshie wizards need the shrouds too.

    In live archmage should be named "Warforged specialist wizard" The prestige is not an archmage.

    But yeah, more flexibility choosing the spell-likes would be good.
    Last edited by Iriale; 08-09-2013 at 06:14 PM.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  19. #19
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    Take a look at the Archmage Tier 5 ability "Arcane Supremacy".
    It's the bees' knees.
    Arcane Supremacy:
    Your offensive spells gain a 10% chance to trigger arcane supremacy.

    Arcane supremacy: +25% Spell Critical Chance, +100% Spell Critical Damage. 12 Second Duration. This effect may trigger only once every 90 seconds.
    This is going to sound overly simplistic, but sorcs are for damage and wizards are for DCs.

    Shiradi Evocation Archmages are an exception, but apart from that it's accurate.

    This IS a drawcard for Shiradi Evokers, no doubt, and some will take Archmage to T5 on that basis. If I'm honest I can even see it being the slight tweakage EE soloers are looking for to take down fat red names; I can imagine the 2 max-emp DoTs under the effects of this doing significant damage.

    Having said that, T5 Archmage still is a poor choice for non-Shiradi Evokers.

    - It's still a problem for me that T5 PM gives flat out better DCs by a +1 across the board through +2 Int from augmented lich form, over the +1 to two specific schools that Archmage gives. Ignoring the fact that PMs get +2 to their primary school (Necro) making it flat out better if, like most mages, you are Necro specced.
    - Removing secondary and tertiary SLA lines makes Archmage much less fun to play even if, functionally, it's just fewer spell points to play around with (which does also make them practically less powerful).

    Without SLAs or DCs in tier 5 the tree isn't a good choice.

    I don't think the tree is unsalvageable, I think the 'fix' is what has been repeatedly submitted (though I'd also take out the wand heightening pre-req to scroll mastery as in Mechanic).

    To be honest, maybe I just don't understand the purpose of this tree as it stands since it appears to be like the 'wizard does damage' tree. The reason that idea doesn't work is spell points and casting times vs sorc. Yes, they only get 0.75 per point invested now, but the 33% more Spell Power of Archmage doesn't mean in EEs wizards are now viable primary damage dealers since we don't have the spell point pool or faster casting time to spam spells effective.

    Though if it specifically is targetting evokers going shiradi (via the lower cooldown SLAs in this version and this new enhancement) then I do understand it, and submit that it's too niche.

    I suppose you guys will have figures on number of people taking it to T5 and maybe I'll be proved wrong. If I'm not though, for the sake of posterity: Secondary/Tertiary SLAs + DC increases = Archmageapoolooza.

    I, who still dearly love Archmages, will not be able to bring myself to play one without something to place SLA/DCs over what I can get by splashing and going T5 Necro.
    Khyber: Aggrim (Completionist!)
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    This is not true. Pale master in live is more popular because archmage is a prestige for only a race (warforged) and pale master is for all fleshies races. Warforged resistances + selfhealing or undead form (selfhealing) + fortification and incremented hps are a BIG difference in survival. Fleshies don't have alternatives to pale master. If you choose to be a fleshie archmage you will be a weak toon with less survival. And the EP don't change this. Fleshie wizards need the shrouds too.
    EP does change this. You can now be an archmage/palemaseter.

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