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  1. #21
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    If the dc mechanic were reworked for the Bard class to work on enchantment dc's it would be a step in the right direction.

    Mass Hold Monster would be nearly equally useless in more difficult content, unless I missed something regarding dc potential with the class. Bards lack meaningful spell penetration and dc potential currently. I'd suppose in a team setting, crushing despair and wail would work quite nicely.
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
    And an army of gimp experiments!

  2. #22
    Community Member esoitl's Avatar
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    I disagree with most of what has been said in this topic.
    I also think it is silly that Bards are getting Wail of the Banshee as a spell... that doesn't make a lot of sense and maybe that's the only thing I have agreed with reading through this so far.

    Point 1) Neither Mass Hold Monster, nor Wail of the Banshee are on the 3.5 Bard spell list. Giving either spell just because it's possible is a bad idea. What should be done if the developers want Bards to have more spells is to look at the spell list and try to fit any functional spell into the game.

    Point 2) Not all casters need to, or should be, 'the same'. A Bard is far more than just a caster, which is evidenced by their spell progression, other abilities, and the capping of their spells at level 6. A Wizard is dedicated to magic, hence they should be better and a Bard, who is not dedicated to magic, should be less adept at it... they should not be equal so I don't get why people try to lobby them to be equal.

    Wail of the Banshee hardly even fits thematically into a Bard spell list, so this seems like a ridiculous idea. At least Bards have Hold Monster, so I can understand the argument towards including Mass Hold Monster, but there is no reason to increase other abilities just because their DCs are lower.
    In essence, that's how balance is created between classes. Bards may never be as good at casting Hold Monster, but they have many other abilities to use that make up for that deficiency.

  3. #23
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    I think Wail *could* have been a good add, if they'd carried through further. It has little to do with what is on the core bard list, more to do with mimicing bard PRCs (which can add **** tons of crazy other stuff).

    • *IF* Marigold crown totally switched your focus so that any and all things that boosted your DCs switched to a different set that would be neat - you could have a "Dirgesinger" theme like the various cleric and other tree grant light/dark thematic sets. It should totally be reflected in the Prodigy setting.
    • Heal + Wail, while nice, is really Heal + junk
    • *IF* the shift towards that kind of thematic caster added more than wail DCs and a few useless fear DCs ... more spells added over time ... Command Undead, Halt Undead, Create Undead, Circle of Death, Undeath to Death, Control Undead, Waves of Exhaustion ... add more and add w/ the Prodigy enhancements.
    • If we had a few thematic casting options, necromancy is one (classic Dirgesinger) I'd love to see Lyric Thaumathurge (adding Cyclonic Blast and other air spells - being the closest to DPS) and possibly a different option that added the Power Word set.


    Just wail and 1 DC from Marigold Crown is kinda weaksauce. They could have done more, and that would have been cool. Imagine ...

    Marigold Crown - Lyric Thaumaturge / Stormsinger
    - +1 Evocation - Adds Gust of Wind
    - Prodigy increases evocation DCs, not enchant
    - Prodigy adds Cyclonic Blast
    - Possibly adds Storm of Vengeance, Call Lightning

    Marigold Crown - Dirgesinger
    - +1 Necromancy - Adds halt undead
    - Prodigy line increases necromancy DCs, not enchant
    - Adds Waves of Exhaustion

    Marigold Crown - Core/Whatever
    - Increases enchantment DCs
    - Adds Mass hold monster
    - etc.


    Ah well.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chette View Post
    Since the other thread regarding this topic was deleted (or was it just moved? I can't find it) I'm starting another one.

    Wail on a bard is a useless spell. Bards have no enhancements to improve their necromancy DC. Unlike wizards they have no spare feats to use to increase their necromancy DC. They cast at max spell level 6 instead of 9 like wizards/sorcs, and they have no access to other necromancy spells for debuffing, like enervate, energy drain, circle of death and symbol of death.

    Wail of the banshee on a bard will be worthless in anything above epic casual. This is an exceptionally poor choice of spell for a caster bard to get, and we all know that bards are in dire need of additional spells.

    Please consider replacing this spell with "Mass Hold Monster". This is a spell that bards would actually be able to cast effectively, and may possibly make caster bards useful again (though lets not get ahead of ourselves here, they still can't damage anything!) Increasing the spell level to level 9 instead of 6 might also be necessary to make caster bards competitive, but even just giving them the spell would be a great start.
    Mass Hold Monster is an excellent call. I've always wondered about the lack of this spell ever since when I first played a bard a few years ago.

  5. #25
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    why replace wail? give use options make Spell singer last core ability add spell slots for level 7 and/or 8 and let us choose.


    Wail level drain is great a good way you use it is to plan with a wiz and your yours right before theirs.

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