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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Juggernaut was around about 3 weeks after artificer went live. It was only posted more recently, and before that there were forumites who wrongly posted melee artys weren't worth a slot in their group, until they saw the video of a group of them basically mocking EE quests..
    Not exactly sure how long a really good build takes to go from conception to crawling all over the servers. But if the jug has been around that long then it takes a while on argo apparently because I really didn't start seeing them til earlier this year. where as the moncher has been around for quite a while.

  2. #42
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aganthor View Post
    IIRC, when they made the changes to TWF, there was major uproar on the forums. People whine that it would destroy TWF build. Time passed on and people adapted. The same thing will happen with the enhancement pass. People will whine and some will rage quit. But in the end, the builders will find new flavors of the month and the game will go on.
    The TWFing changes killed Tempest rangers until EDs game out.

    Gutting spell power for sorcs does that same thing.

    That said we're getting LR+20 hearts so just convert to wizards!

  3. #43
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    To those taking issues with the use of the word "never" : just lol, this is 3rd grade? Really, for all of time, you NEVAR? The last time I heard that I was trying to get out of trouble with Mrs. H. Go troll somewhere else.

    The changes to spell critical multiplier and spell critical chance are clearly intentional. Are you now going to me that I'm clueless for stating this?
    Yes. It HAS been stated that there was no planned nerf to sorc DPS. Yet here we are.

  4. #44
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    As someone who enjoys Sorcs more than Wizards, I find it disconcerting that people are just throwing around the word "useless" and numbers like "50% nerf" around like it's confetti at a wedding.

    Can we have some actual numbers instead of the usual fits of "doom and gloom" that plague every forum, ever? I think one poster said he only suffered a 15 spell power nerf to his main element and 40 to another, in addition to the crit nerfs (what is it, an over all 25% nerf to crit damage?). That doesn't scream "useless" or a "50% nerf" to me, but I'd love to see some actual numbers supporting the "doom and gloom" crowds claims that the nerf is that huge.

    If such numbers even exist.

    The loss of Wand and Scroll Mastery should be addressed, but I don't see that contributing to a loss in DPS, but rather, a loss in self-healing and is a totally separate issue from all these claims of "useless".

  5. #45
    The Hatchery Hutoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    There's a point to be made here, but it's being made very poorly by dishonest advocates.
    +1 Such a good quote, I had to log in to rep it... sounds like Plato's Cave... or a description of the human condition... at least in the political classes... bravo!
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  6. #46
    Community Member Psiandron's Avatar
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    After LRing my air savant on Lammania he came out with a 30 pt drop in electrical spell power and somewhat of a drop in sonic, but in all other areas his spell power went up fairly substantially. He also gained 3 points in spell pen as he's an elf. It'll probably change his spell selection a bit, and the nerf to spell crits will definitely drop his damage off, but I doubt it's going to be that bad for him.

    Wizzies will see a pretty substantial boost in spell power. And that's fine I run one of those too. He'll still never have the mana to throw that the sorc does. Meh.

    The loss of wand and scroll mastery will kind of blow. Really though it's nothing more than a small plat sink for me. I'll just need to burn a few more scrolls. Worst thing that I can see is that means that sorc's won't be nearly as effective helping out with the healing. Throwing a 100 point hjeal on a 1000+ hp melee is going to be pretty meaningless. But then, that was never really in the job description anyways.
    Quote Originally Posted by MalkavianX View Post
    and then dropped it like a burning kitten

  7. #47
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    First some news about Critical Chance...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We've review some numbers for spell criticals. We'll be adjusting spell critical chance provided by items upwards quite a bit. Exact numbers to be determined, but likely higher than those numbers are on live right now. (We are aware they are lower on Lamannia right now. That's changing.)
    I've reviewed the numbers many times and I agree that for any element that a Sorcerer use to spend APs to get to the 100 Spell power will not be able to get that high through the current enhancements.

    Example:
    If someone spends the Minimum 41 APs in a Tree getting Capstone that will equal +26 Universal Spell Power, +30 To Primary Element and - 30 to Apposing Element.

    This would put AP Spell Power for primary element @ 56 Spell Power and All others will be at 26

    If one spends all of their Points including Capstone in a single tree that will equal +55 Universal Spell Power, +30 To Primary and -30 Apposing

    This puts a Sorcerer at -15 Spell power of what could be achieved on Live for Primary and +15 Spell Power over any other spell line where a single point was spent to get 40 Spell power and -45 Spell power to any element not the primary where AP was spent to reach 100.


    I agree sorcerers are getting weakened with spell power of elements they invest in and boosted for element they normally don't spend anything on.

    So my thought is why not change this up to be similar to the Pale Master Line that gains .75 Universal and .75 for Negative Energy per point spent in the Tree.

    This would put a Savant's primary spell element if all AP are spent in the Savant at 111 (or 11 better than live) which I think would be fair since Spellcraft is currently and Int based skill. This should allow Sorcerer's to stay King/Queen of their Element.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    I've reviewed the numbers many times and I agree that for any element that a Sorcerer use to spend APs to get to the 100 Spell power will not be able to get that high through the current enhancements.
    Did they change the Elemental Savant Points Spent in Tree down from .75? Because otherwise, I am not sure how you get your numbers.....

    Example:
    If someone spends the Minimum 41 APs in a Tree getting Capstone that will equal +26 Universal Spell Power, +30 To Primary Element and - 30 to Apposing Element.
    41 * .75 = 30 Universal Spell Power, not 26.

    If one spends all of their Points including Capstone in a single tree that will equal +55 Universal Spell Power, +30 To Primary and -30 Apposing
    80 * .75 = 60 Universal Spell Power, not 55.

    This puts a Sorcerer at -15 Spell power of what could be achieved on Live for Primary and +15 Spell Power over any other spell line where a single point was spent to get 40 Spell power and -45 Spell power to any element not the primary where AP was spent to reach 100.
    Adjusted, that would be -10 standing Spell Power for your primary school, with a self buff for +50 more. The only place where Spell Power really takes a hit is Repair and Force, which there is no option for Sorcerers to increase beyond Universal Spell Power. It goes from 120 (with capstone) to 60 + Spellcraft.


    So my thought is why not change this up to be similar to the Pale Master Line that gains .75 Universal and .75 for Negative Energy per point spent in the Tree.

    This would put a Savant's primary spell element if all AP are spent in the Savant at 111 (or 11 better than live) which I think would be fair since Spellcraft is currently and Int based skill. This should allow Sorcerer's to stay King/Queen of their Element.
    That would be 120, not 111. With the self buffed +50 more that you left out earlier as well. +Spellcraft.


    The problem with Sorcs in the enhancement trees wasn't ever changes in Spell Power. It was changes in relative spell power, when compared to Wizards, and the loss of a massive amount of critical damage. If the critical chance from items is buffed sufficiently (a 36.75% critical chance with 2x critical damage would be needed to break even with the 21% critical chance with 2.75x critical damage that we have on live) that it is able to stay close to what we currently have, without having to spend feats that Sorcerers don't have to spare on really lousy Spell Point and Crit Chance increasing feats, then that would alleviate one problem. But unless Sorcerers get something uniquely beneficial as well they will still be in the same boat of loosing their core advantages to relative increases to Wizards.


    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    Can we have some actual numbers instead of the usual fits of "doom and gloom" that plague every forum, ever? I think one poster said he only suffered a 15 spell power nerf to his main element and 40 to another, in addition to the crit nerfs (what is it, an over all 25% nerf to crit damage?). That doesn't scream "useless" or a "50% nerf" to me, but I'd love to see some actual numbers supporting the "doom and gloom" crowds claims that the nerf is that huge.
    That has been done already, to death, in the Lamannia forums. Repeating it over and over isn't going to change the results.
    Last edited by ForumAccess; 07-12-2013 at 04:29 PM.

  9. #49
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    That has been done already, to death, in the Lamannia forums. Repeating it over and over isn't going to change the results.
    Well I'm sorry, but I don't honestly feel people should be spouting off that a class is "useless" or will suffer a "50% nerf' without any citations to back it up.

    Not to mention that I couldn't access the Lamannia forums this morning either. Nor do I want to wade through a cesspool for whining about this supposed 50% nerf (that all too often doesn't account for the spell power from Electrocution-type buffs and Spellcraft. Yes, you're not an Int class, I get it. It's a terrible thing to have 3 Ability Scores instead of 2 to put points in to). If people are going to make claims, a citation would be a minor courtesy at best. Without it, everyone sounds like all those people who proclaimed 2012 would be the end of days.

  10. #50
    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    Blah Blah Blah. Sorcerer has been a pointless frickin class since Wizards of the Coast puked it out when they defiled a great PnP roleplaying game and released 3E.
    All that is wrong with DDO, life, taxes, poltics, religion, music, fast food, education, the criminal justice system, the weather, society, the universe, and previously-discontinued-but-now-on-their-way-back snack cakes, is all the fault of Wizards of the Coast. I know this because Fred told me so, and Mind Flayers are smart.

  11. #51
    Founder adamkatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    Also untrue.

    SOrcs get faster casting, faster cooldowns, double spellpoints from items, and more spellpoints in general.

    You don't seem like you really understand the sorc class, with that statement.

    Enjoy your serving of doom and gloom though.

    Hey, thanks for pointing out stuff sorcs have always had!!!!

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  12. #52
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    Did they change the Elemental Savant Points Spent in Tree down from .75? Because otherwise, I am not sure how you get your numbers.....


    41 * .75 = 30 Universal Spell Power, not 26.


    80 * .75 = 60 Universal Spell Power, not 55.


    Adjusted, that would be -10 standing Spell Power for your primary school, with a self buff for +50 more. The only place where Spell Power really takes a hit is Repair and Force, which there is no option for Sorcerers to increase beyond Universal Spell Power. It goes from 120 (with capstone) to 60 + Spellcraft.




    That would be 120, not 111. With the self buffed +50 more that you left out earlier as well. +Spellcraft.
    You don't get the 6 Points Spent in Core. So 41 - 6 Core is 35. Rest you can do the math. This is one of the parts of the math that took me so long to understand as I stripped characters and rebuilt them.

    I was only adding in the Enhancements as that is the crux of what everyone seems to be pointing towards. On Live Enhancements brings an Arcane to 100. On Lam. Enhancements spending in only the Savant tree at best brings them to 85.

    You are right Spellcraft does give wizards and Artificers an advantage as they would naturally have more invested in intelligence. Part of what many are having a hard time with is working out why they cannot have the same spell power for their primary Element as they have on live.

    Currently it is a reduction as far as enhancements go, but it is not the 50% that the doooomests are claiming.

  13. #53
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    You don't get the 6 Points Spent in Core. So 41 - 6 Core is 35. Rest you can do the math. This is one of the parts of the math that took me so long to understand as I stripped characters and rebuilt them.

    I was only adding in the Enhancements as that is the crux of what everyone seems to be pointing towards. On Live Enhancements brings an Arcane to 100. On Lam. Enhancements spending in only the Savant tree at best brings them to 85.

    You are right Spellcraft does give wizards and Artificers an advantage as they would naturally have more invested in intelligence. Part of what many are having a hard time with is working out why they cannot have the same spell power for their primary Element as they have on live.

    Currently it is a reduction as far as enhancements go, but it is not the 50% that the doooomests are claiming.
    Just curious, but was your math earlier including the "Electrocution" style temp buffs that each line has? Yeah they're a pain to keep up, and they have the stink of WoW about them in how they function, but if the PDFs are correct (can't get onto Lam to check ATM), you're looking at 50 spell power at 10 stacks, which brings the Sorc above live in terms of current spell power..... if you absolutely pigeonhole yourself and spam, anyways.

    In before I get flamed for this.

    But maybe the nerf to passive spell power was to account for the Electrocution line? I saw a dev post showing that they included Electrocution in their spell power calculations here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...e6#post5034037

    Maybe they're balancing around these short term debuffs (whether we like it or not)?

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    I was only adding in the Enhancements as that is the crux of what everyone seems to be pointing towards. On Live Enhancements brings an Arcane to 100. On Lam. Enhancements spending in only the Savant tree at best brings them to 85.
    Why not include Spellcraft? If your chocolate chip cookies get replaced with peanut butter cookies, you don't complain that all the cookies are gone. You can complain about the new cookies and lack of old cookies, of course (as seen throughout the forums), but having different cookies isn't the same as having no cookies. Not even close, in fact, especially when we're counting the number of cookies everybody has.

    Spellcraft can bring a Sorc's main element's spell power to be about the same as it is on live, depending on their build and how much they want to invest in it.

    I'll save any DOOOOOM for after the expansion is released. Until then things can change. They obviously know, as seen in a quote earlier in the thread, that there's an issue here and are working on fixing it. I don't think biting their heads off will make them know even more-ly that there's a problem.

  15. #55
    Community Member PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    I would love to see DC casting made viable so that arcane's had more viable options, but I don't see a need to nerf shiradi.
    DC casting is 100% viable if you're not a one-trick pony who goes ONLY for fortitude-based spells. If I can land UNHEIGHTENED Greater Command in EPIC ELITE GIANTHOLD with ZERO enchantment investment, why the heck aren't people secondary-speccing enchantment on their wizards and annihilating the place? Oh, I know why, because they just want to one-button insta-kill anything and everything instead of maybe actually thinking for 2 seconds together. Many Gianthold mobs have poor reflex saves as well.

    Heck, I've done endgame DC casting on a SORCERER back in the days when epics were REALLY REALLY epic and you were LUCKY if the very best CC in the game hit 50% of targets and held for 3 seconds. You just have to make good tactical use of Circle of Death, Symbol of Death, Mind Fog, etc.

    I have zero sympathy for this "if I can't finger it the second I see it, it's OP" bull puckey.
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  16. #56
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    I checked out one of my sorcs on Lam before the downtime. His main element was down 15 spell power, and secondary down 40 or so. This, combined with the spell critical changes, does result in a nerf. But 50%? Not even close to.

    Hopefully they'll help sorcs out some, since they're not really top of the pack anymore, and hasn't been for a good whiles. Not need to or point in nerfing them, IMO.
    I fail to see how this is limited to sorcs the stupid spellpower reduction affects everyone my pale master lost a bunch of cold spellpower and his neg energy took as nosedive despite almost taking every enhancement from the pm tree because heal is a bloody cross class skill

    You CAN get the same spellpower as you do on live you just need to invest in spellcraft and heal or repair (heal for pale masters repair for WF)

    Now of course this is assuming we can can magically make 2 skill points or more out of no where and regardless of class most builds have NO room for more skill points. This definitely kills my Battle Wiz who uses his skill points for intimidate, concentration and UMD....intim is required for my job, concen means I can actually cast whilst under fire as always, UMD makes me much more versatile but mainly it's so I can use harm scrolls.

    The changes to heal and repair should be reverted and spellcraft should be removed than have one of two things replace its function either concentration an ability almost all spell asters take or my personally fav option make a spell casters primary stat increase spellpower it only makes sense. You could even have some fun with it make it a autogrant feat given at level 1 to any blue bar....sorc gets dragon-blooded (cha to spellpower) wizard gets studious (int t spellpower) FvS/Paladins get Weapon of the gods (cha to spellpower) etc.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 07-13-2013 at 08:08 AM.
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    In what world are sorcs still the over-powered class (outside of Shiradi, which is largely unaffected by enhancement changes except for a minor dip in force damage)?
    I suspect most people are spending most of their time playing EH or less - on EH, there's a pretty solid argument that sorcs are top dog. On EE, ya, my shiradi is useful, but my draconic guy ... not so much

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    /sigh...

    I was answering a direct question as to why sorcs "can't use scrolls anymore." Specifically:
    As the change to (a lack of)W&SMastery in no way alters your odds of seeing "success" on the die roll, yes; sorcs can use them just fine. No, they don't receive as much benefit as they did, but they have not lost their ability to use them.

    Surely you realized this?

    Edit: Oh, and heal scrolls still don't give negatives like SF pots
    Sorcs are by far my favorite class since pretty much when I started playing in '07. Before savants, before EDs, before Shroud gear and all that noise. I never understood why arcane wand/scroll mastery should also pump divine scrolls. They are completely different schools/lore. I never bothered to take any of them for two things:

    1) I rather use the APs for human/helf healing amp (which also help with pots)
    2) If you are relying on scrolls for survival, you should be more conservative and stay a bit back from the front lines
    3) If you are a battle-oriented sorc, go WF for quickened repairs.

    As for damage nerf, by the time you add SLAs, Sharadi ED's and DoTs you will still out-DPS most of your group, specially against raid bosses and other high-fort mobs, it's just that the difference won't be as dramatic as we've seen in the last few months.

    Seems OP is sensationalizing and exaggerating the changes a bit.
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotMaarl View Post
    You sorc players make me laugh. smashing the same 4 buttons over and over again, pretending you're uber. spraying no-miss spells like otilukes, cone of cold, dragon breath and energy burst.

    One day you'll grown up and learn wizard.

    otilukes, cone of cold, dragon breath and energy burst all reflex saves that can be saved for half damage or evaded.

    Also I use a lot of spells on my Sorc: Lighting Bolt, Ball of Lightning, Electric Loop, Chain Lightning, Otilukes, Polar Ray, Sonic Blast, Greater Shout, Sunburst, PW:Kill, Web, Force Missiles, Chain Missiles, Dragon Breath, Energy Burst and a few others and they all can be evaded except Missiles and Polar Ray(which can miss if the target if it is moving fast).

    Not exactly 4 button smashing.
    Last edited by Hoiii; 07-13-2013 at 11:59 AM.

  20. #60
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GentlemanAndAScholar View Post
    Sorcs are by far my favorite class since pretty much when I started playing in '07. Before savants, before EDs, before Shroud gear and all that noise. I never understood why arcane wand/scroll mastery should also pump divine scrolls. They are completely different schools/lore. I never bothered to take any of them for two things:

    1) I rather use the APs for human/helf healing amp (which also help with pots)
    2) If you are relying on scrolls for survival, you should be more conservative and stay a bit back from the front lines
    3) If you are a battle-oriented sorc, go WF for quickened repairs.

    As for damage nerf, by the time you add SLAs, Sharadi ED's and DoTs you will still out-DPS most of your group, specially against raid bosses and other high-fort mobs, it's just that the difference won't be as dramatic as we've seen in the last few months.

    Seems OP is sensationalizing and exaggerating the changes a bit.
    Arcanes haven't had the best DPS for a very long time. You will not steal aggro from a decent monkcher or melee player in the right destiny.

    OP isn't sensationalizing anything, sorcs ARE getting nerfed hard. Were talking ~20% after spellpower and crit nerfs.

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