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  1. #21
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    +20 LR or Free Past life + get back to max level for every single one of your characters... that sounds reasonable. Make them bound to account please on top of that.

    Edit: After a bit of thinking, while the TR + stone still makes no sense to me, I'm starting to think that a complete revamp from scratch (LR) might be the way to go if faisible.

    It's just there are some little problems still: You have an old Bard that you don't play anymore, now you can swap in to a full Wiz and TR instantly to get the PL. Or just end up with any toons you want if you had a couple old characters. I think that's still less hurting then just screwing some people's build.

    The problem lies within the amount of free LR some people will be asking for. One per character is just... not needed AND too much.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 07-11-2013 at 12:23 PM.
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  2. #22
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    I hope Turbine is putting a lot of thought into how to help players transition into the new enhancement system as easily as possible without just giving too much away.

    I play one character mainly, so I have only one toon to "fix". If I have to, I can run him through a TR and be back in business in a few weeks if I'm casual about it. This is the best case scenario though. Although I enjoy playing just a single toon, there are plenty of players with 10 or more active toons. The thought of having to TR that many toons just to make them playable again is not something I'd want to be looking forward to.

    I think that instant TR + 20 levels is probably a bit much to be giving to every toon. I also think that a single free LR with no + value is probably too little. It will probably end up being one of those things that people will rage about because it will be impossible to please everyone.

    I really wish I could suggest something that would please a majority, but I'm at a loss. I hope Turbine can come up with something other than a free LR per toon.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    With the upcoming changes to enhancements we need an option to re-vamp our toons to adjust for these changes. The following 2 options have been suggested:

    1.) A +20 Lesser reincarnation, allowing us to changes and number of classes.

    2.) An exp stone that levels us to level 20, plus a True heart of the wood. This will allow us to TR instantly, and remake our characters as desired.

    We cannot accept less; it is not acceptable to punish us by breaking our builds and toons. A simple free LR will not suffice!
    Fully agree with this.

    I doubt they will do it; but I fully agree with this.

    Prove me wrong Turbine! Prove! me! Wrong!

    Stop punishing us for playing your game; this is a MUCH bigger change than MOTU - this changes the whole game, and every single character.

  4. #24
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    I would be very happy with a choice between a +3LR or a modified True Heart which allowed me to TR at the xp rate of a first lifer. This way I can remake my character, sure I have to play up to 20 again but not at a penalty. And for my trouble, I get an easy past life.

    However - I do not feel entitled to anything because Turbine is making changes. I look forward to the changes and all the fun they bring. I have had to reroll / remake my characters many times already ... what's one more.

  5. #25
    Community Member grausherra's Avatar
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    My apologies for making this thread when there was a similar topic already, I think we can safely rabble, rant, and rave in the following thread, which the devs apparently are looking at, so we might be more likely to be heard:

    Free respec for enhancement pass topic

    RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    Stop punishing us for playing your game; this is a MUCH bigger change than MOTU - this changes the whole game, and every single character.
    I seem to remember people saying the exact same thing when the chances for to-hit and AC were announced. Personally, i do not think that it should be free TR. To those who want a new race, just because another race now has the better abilities doesn't mean you should get it for free. If turbine had released a new race that finally had +wis, would all the divines be entitled to a free TR? no.

    Now, for classes, i agree they should give something more than a simple LR to help make a viable build, but I don't think they need to give free +20 LR or free TR. Instead, if it could be +7 LR(no min level restriction), i think MOST people would be able to make viable toons. You'll still have the minor cases (7/7/6) builds that might have more difficulties, but the majority of builds would be able to make viable toons. Maybe even go up to a +9 LR, but i wouldn't do any more than that.

  7. #27
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    Reading comprehension 4tw!

    A instant level to 20 and then TR, resetting the character back to level 1 so it can be built again.

    <OR>

    A +20 LR, which is a simple reincarnation that allows up to 20 class changes; a +20 heart DOES NOT mean change up to 20 different classes on a single toon, it means change 20 total levels worth of choice, IE rebuilding the character from the ground up.

    If you are going to be argumentative, at least read the post and know *** you are talking about.
    People can only read what you type not what you mean, next time try to be a bit more clear.

    I'm sure the DEVs will stop working on the Xpac to create a +20 LR and test it to be sure it will work.

    People would not appear argumentative if you far more clear in what unrealistic demand you want.

    Get ready to get your free LR/GR and no +20 LR, instant Level to 20 and TR.

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  8. #28
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    Logically, there's only two things you can really expect them to provide given the scope of the EP:

    1) A way to modify your current character to fit into the new system, without fundamentally changing your character into a new one

    2) A way to "trade in" your current, untenable character for a new, different one that fits the system.

    So option 1) would be the "LR" option, though I think a +6 LR is as much as you need...anything more begins to become a "total respec" rather than just tweaking your existing character. I don't think we can ask Turbine to let us turn our Sorcs into Barbarians, AND keep all our levels, just because we don't want to play a Sorc anymore. That's what TR is for.

    Option 2) would be the "TR" option, and that'd be the way to go if you don't want to adapt your current character, or if you don't want to keep your current race. You'd still keep all your stuff, you'd just have to start over leveling your new character in the new system, just like if you TRed any other time (and remember, the Heroic XP curve will be gentler in the EP so 1-20 wont be so bad). The 1-20 Stone would only be given to characters under, say, L18, so that they didn't have to grind up their old (gimp) chars before they could remake them.

  9. #29
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    I vote for a simple LR and none of the above drama.
    Aim low you'll never be disappointed? They are already promising an LR with no class changes... I have 14 alts, 12 of which have a class split that was determined by the live enhancement system, trading off with Class perks or spell levels available. 7 of them will want a +something LR, they wont be fixable without either that or a TR.

    I don't enjoy TR'ing. Especially on toons that are fun to play right now and really don't need TR perks. On principle alone I will not pay money for +class change LR's if Turbine unnecessarily breaks my toons. If they dropped the "points spent in tree" and put all the old regular class enhancements into a non PrE "core class" tree none of them would break. But for some reason they are adamant about breaking a bunch of current builds and multiclass splits. They have even publicly stated "We know we will be breaking your builds" this statement was made by Squeek on Lam in the first preview and later edited out of her post. I can only guess that they maybe thinking that can generate new activity in old players who rarely play due to boredom; by giving them a completely redone character building system. Or maybe they don't appreciate or realize that people leave games when their hundreds and thousands of hours of play are made completely pointless by arbitrary, careless, wreckless or stupid design choices. AP spent in tree is Arbitrary and poor design, restrict AP spending with pre-requisits not arbitrary investment cost tiers. Putting non PrE core class enhancements like Exalted Smiting, Sprint boosts, Wand and Scroll mastery, Heal amp, etc. into specific trees WITH an AP investment requirement is doubly arbitrary, careless and stupid design. PrE trees could (and should) be totally about the PrE... but because they have "AP spent in tree" requirements they are forcing themselves into "fleshing out" PrE trees with mismatched stuff that doesn't belong in a PrE, and fluff and badly designed and useless enhancements that no one will use unless they stuff it down our throats with an AP investment gate.

    I could live with all the needless changes, I could even live with the 30 some odd outright nerfs in the pass, but that AP spent in tree, with it's self enforcing need to stuff the PrE's with core class enhacements that don't belong, is a deal breaker right now. A one time 20 level LR for each character is the right thing to do from a customer support standpoint.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    I'm sure the DEVs will stop working on the Xpac to create a +20 LR and test it to be sure it will work.
    Gee what side of the argument is Hendrik on I wonder.

    Wonderfully ridiculous characterization that making a +20 LR would require the "DEVs" (whats with the capitalization?) to halt work on the expansion pack to accomplish the feat of changing a 7 digit integer in a database. The same number they tweaked for Vet 7 status and Bladeforged 15, Stone of XP... you know .

  11. #31
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    I want a choice of either, but I don't expect anything - besides from more bugs.
    Any of my toons that will be ruined (specifically, all) will be at 20+ with a true heart by tomorrow.
    But hey - if a LR+20 is too hard, 4x LR+5 will work. (Woe be onto those that need to change alignments!)

  12. #32
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    Free LR+3, 1/toon, bound to char
    extra free Heart of wood plus 1 otto box, 1/account, bound to account, max use 1/account

    seem fair..a little grind to re-cap your main but, with an extra past life granted

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Njohrd View Post
    Free LR+3, 1/toon, bound to char
    extra free Heart of wood plus 1 otto box, 1/account, bound to account, max use 1/account

    seem fair..a little grind to re-cap your main but, with an extra past life granted
    Some of us have 30 chars, and for many of them, a LR+3 just won't cut it.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  14. #34
    Community Member darthhento's Avatar
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    LR +20 with a race change token and nothing less.
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  15. #35
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    I think a +20 Heart is going a bit too far. Yes, there are going to be dramatic changes. But this would not be an ideal solution as it would be prone to abuse. However, I believe a +5 Heart is probably just about right. It should allow virtually any character, even those with a heavy splash, to re-arrange their class make-up to take optimal advantage of the new enhancement system. All prestige enhancement paths require no more than 5 levels in a single class to take that prestige's capstone. So at the very least you will be able to optimize for one capstone with this solution.

    A free True Heart is not a bad idea, but honestly it takes 2-3 hours to grind out 20 tokens. If you really just want to start over from scratch and do the TR route it isn't that difficult. On the other hand, if you have a character at cap that you'd like to just keep at cap and re-arrange a few things without having to spend the 40-80 hours (depending on your pace, for many it is probably less) it takes to level from 1-20, a free True Heart isn't going to do you much good. Plenty of players like to just stay at cap. I have 12 characters right now of which six are played regularly (and the other six are mules). I don't want to TR all six of them just to re-orient them to the new enhancement pass.

    Truthfully, I would be happy with a simple free LR, but that's just me. Most of my toons are not multiclassed, and those that are generally only have 2 rogue levels for trapping, 2 fighter levels for bonus feats, or 2 monk levels for Wisdom to AC and evasion, so I probably wouldn't want much out of the new enhancement trees for those classes anyway.

    Also bear in mind that the upcoming changes to reincarnation will also make all Lesser Reincarnations basically the same as a Greater Reincarnation. So if you've earned 32-point buy as opposed to buying it right off the bat (or ditching your first 28-point buy toon which you used to earn your first 1750 favor), any toons you created as Adventurer (28 PB) builds will be able to reincarnate up to Champion (32 PB). I don't know if this change will occur with U19 or when they introduce the new reincarnation system with U20, but that is still a consideration. For toons you have who are Adventurer build which you don't play often or are basically mules you can wait until U20 if you need to. Chances are, your main toons are already playing with Champion or better. Personally, I've TR'd most of my Adventurer builds so this doesn't matter to me much, but I am sure it will matter to some.

    Just some food for thought. I agree with the OP in spirit, but I think it's asking a little too much for a +20 heart.

  16. #36
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    Default Give the devs some time

    they are engaged and responsive.

    It's too early to suggest drastic reincarnation options.

  17. #37
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    I demand, DEMAND! a free TR and free stone of XP and a stack of superior mnemonic pots because of all the SP I'll waste getting used to the new system and a free month of VIP because of how long it will take to redo my character and $5,000 compensation for the time off work I'll have to take.




    Oh, and a pony too. I demand a pony.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    With the upcoming changes to enhancements we need an option to re-vamp our toons to adjust for these changes. The following 2 options have been suggested:

    1.) A +20 Lesser reincarnation, allowing us to changes and number of classes.

    2.) An exp stone that levels us to level 20, plus a True heart of the wood. This will allow us to TR instantly, and remake our characters as desired.

    We cannot accept less; it is not acceptable to punish us by breaking our builds and toons. A simple free LR will not suffice!
    This is assuming you know how to build you character after the enhancement pass. IMO there are going to be several revisions to each of our characters after we re-build them initially. As far as your demands go, a free past life feat is asking for more than you should get. I do not think a +20LR is out of the question, but it likely won't happen either. Its going to have to be a one-time use item and currently there are no +20 hearts in the store so likely we will get a +5 heart. Probably not going to get alignment or race changes either.

    For me I just chalk it up to TR'ing my toons so I can check out some new builds and see how they level. For me this is like a fresh change and I personally cannot wait until the EP hits...and Epic TRs later in the year. Good things IMHO, keeps the game fresh for those of us playing for years now.

  19. #39
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    A couple of my thoughts
    1) Turbine should introduce +X LR hearts to the token trade-in system (1,3,5?). I know its probably a non-starter since its a cash-cow so why give it up. But, by doing so you can avoid this type of drama that occurs every time an update, big or small, affects someone's character. There will be those that still pay for the character change, and those that grind out the tokens, but at least its something you can point to thats less intensive than TRing an entire character. I think giving players a choice like this in how to spend their time is benefiicial for retention in the long-run.

    2) My eyes glaze over every time someone uses a "vacant we remark" on forums or elsewhere. Its a simplistic tool to create the image of uniformity in a group where uniformity does not exist. There is an old article in sociology I like to read at times like this, but darned if I know how to insert links. Granted it deals with sociologists and their issues that few really care about or dont always truly relate, but it can be a general reply to "vacant we remarks" people like to make when trying to drum up drama in support of their viewpoint/solutions. http://burawoy.berkeley.edu/PS/Socia...es/Nielsen.pdf
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    i'll be putting a bug into our system.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD2play View Post
    Agree, although a +3 would be better. if you toon is still bust after that, TR will be your friend.
    This sounds reasonable on the face of it but in some cases won't be enough. If you made a toon a long time ago and can't quite remember the order in which you took various class levels an LR will use one of those plusses every time you make a mistake and take a class out of order.

    I'd need to have enough plusses on the lesser heart to make sure I didn't use them all up by making errors.

    Also, the combat pass that happened with the last expansion broke some builds in ways that weren't fixable by the free LR we were given, and the new enhancement pass will no doubt compound this, making very extensive changes necessary (eg monk splash of one or two levels may well have to go much deeper into monk).

    With 35 toons on one account on Khyber alone, I'll be spending a lot of time reworking borked toons this autumn I guess. That'll e a lot of time not getting XP or renown. Maybe a boost there would help too!
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