Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 43
  1. #1
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    1,242

    Default Defense against magic

    In other words; there is none.

    I was reading another thread and the thing that stuck out most, to me, was the lack of defenses against magic. Seriously. We have evasion and...moving. Spell resistance only goes so far, especially in end-game, and that does nothing against the vast majority of damaging spells, which, at the end of the game, can be devastating.

    When, in any D&D game, novel, or anything, has any wizard or sorcerer not gone without their spell mantle or actual shielding spells? It's hardly dignified for an archmage to dodge behind a rock, anyway. Defensive spells like nightshield and shield are near useless at the end of the game (except for absorbing magic missiles, which aren't widely used) because their resistance bonuses don't stack with anything. Protection against Energy is about as useful as shielding yourself from a nuclear attack by standing behind a wall; it'll work for a moment until it melts. And I'm not talking about blur, displacement, or stoneskin; those are defenses against physical attacks, not magical.

    I say we need to add lesser/greater spell mantles to the arcane spell list. Not powerful ones, just enough to shrug off a few spells so that arcanes don't get obliterated when they shouldn't have to. You could have it act like stoneskin, but stronger, and absorbs magic damage of any kind; to balance it out you could give it a lengthy cooldown to prevent complete immunity to spellcasters.

    And no, losing casting ability to take two levels of rogue or monk is not a solution, that's a workaround.

  2. #2
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,018

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    In other words; there is none.

    I was reading another thread and the thing that stuck out most, to me, was the lack of defenses against magic. Seriously. We have evasion and...moving. Spell resistance only goes so far, especially in end-game, and that does nothing against the vast majority of damaging spells, which, at the end of the game, can be devastating.

    When, in any D&D game, novel, or anything, has any wizard or sorcerer not gone without their spell mantle or actual shielding spells? It's hardly dignified for an archmage to dodge behind a rock, anyway. Defensive spells like nightshield and shield are near useless at the end of the game (except for absorbing magic missiles, which aren't widely used) because their resistance bonuses don't stack with anything. Protection against Energy is about as useful as shielding yourself from a nuclear attack by standing behind a wall; it'll work for a moment until it melts. And I'm not talking about blur, displacement, or stoneskin; those are defenses against physical attacks, not magical.

    I say we need to add lesser/greater spell mantles to the arcane spell list. Not powerful ones, just enough to shrug off a few spells so that arcanes don't get obliterated when they shouldn't have to. You could have it act like stoneskin, but stronger, and absorbs magic damage of any kind; to balance it out you could give it a lengthy cooldown to prevent complete immunity to spellcasters.

    And no, losing casting ability to take two levels of rogue or monk is not a solution, that's a workaround.
    The problem is that all the lower-tier options simply fail to scale up to Epic-level content. Its like they built a system that worked, but then forgot to update it as the game grew. There's a lot of different ways they could fix it:

    -Make Evasion a selectable (Epic) feat. Really, if so many people are splashing 2 MNK or 2 ROG just to get Evasion, there should be a better way to get it (other than Shadowdancer, which doesn't help Heroic characters).
    -Scale up Spell Resistance to Epic-useful levels and make it actually function as "AC for spells", ie damaging spells have a chance to miss as well as non-damaging spells. Or have it function as "PRR for magic", negating a percentage of damaging spells, before other resistances are calculated.
    -Scale up Resist Energy to +40/cl 16, +50/cl 20, +60/cl 23. Or add a T7 spell "Greater Resist Energy" to cover the +40-60 bracket. I don't know how 30 Resist is supposed to cut it in post-20 content, especially when you can just get 30 from a ship buff.

    Basically, there needs to be a practical way to avoid, ablate, or negate magic damage, and right now the only way that works in endgame is Evasion with high Reflex saves.

    That being said, there are items in the game with "absorb harmful spell" properties...they just aren't as convenient as having that in a castable spell format might be. Unless you want to just devote an entire row of hotkeys to suppressed Lavender Ioun Stones, and swap them as they burn out :P

  3. #3
    Community Member knightgf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    2,080

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post

    -Make Evasion a selectable (Epic) feat. Really, if so many people are splashing 2 MNK or 2 ROG just to get Evasion, there should be a better way to get it (other than Shadowdancer, which doesn't help Heroic characters).
    -Scale up Spell Resistance to Epic-useful levels and make it actually function as "AC for spells", ie damaging spells have a chance to miss as well as non-damaging spells. Or have it function as "PRR for magic", negating a percentage of damaging spells, before other resistances are calculated.
    -Scale up Resist Energy to +40/cl 16, +50/cl 20, +60/cl 23. Or add a T7 spell "Greater Resist Energy" to cover the +40-60 bracket. I don't know how 30 Resist is supposed to cut it in post-20 content, especially when you can just get 30 from a ship buff.
    Im not too fond of evasion as a epic feat, but I do support ways of better resistance. The Spell Resistance caster-ability is nice, but there has to be other sources. For starters, the spell resistance trait found on items could be upgraded to provide +3 stacking SR per tier of it, with a additional trait that grants spell resistance, as per the spell. While both of these traits can be found on a item, its pretty rare. Also, drow, monks and occult slayer barbarians could have the option of using action points to gain additional spell resistance that is considered a racial(Or Prestige, if a Occult slayer barbarian) bonus for the purposes of stacking. Such gains would cost 1 AP each and grant a +3 racial bonus to SR. Im not sure about the whole "PRR" idea though, I think that should apply to physical damage only...

    As for the resist energy idea, I think its worthwhile. The spell is AWESOME at heroic levels, but not so much at higher levels. While I think giving everyone a free caster cap upgrade to resist energy is a great idea, im also up for making it a tier 1 magister ability or something that can be improved by spending action points.
    Here's a riddle for you: What do you call people who play the game for only a day and apparently know everything?

  4. #4
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    3rd star from the left, and on til morning...
    Posts
    2,629

    Default

    My pally and hirelings decide to take a crack at an EH solo during the loot boost/

    Start of the quest: here come tons of Giants....

    Your protection from XXXX has been removed.
    Your protection from yyyyy has been remoded.

    And so forth...until death.

    So how do I protect against the removal of my protections?

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by My2Cents View Post
    My pally and hirelings decide to take a crack at an EH solo during the loot boost/

    Start of the quest: here come tons of Giants....

    Your protection from XXXX has been removed.
    Your protection from yyyyy has been remoded.

    And so forth...until death.

    So how do I protect against the removal of my protections?

    get insane Will saves lol

  6. #6
    Community Member fmalfeas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    891

    Default

    We need a spell from 2nd edition.

    Elminster's Eppullent Eppuration
    Abjuration 9

    It creates a spell-absorption effect that can absorb a number of spell levels equal to twice your caster level. It surrounds you with an equal number of little pink bubbles that pop as levels are used up.

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    In other words; there is none.

    I was reading another thread and the thing that stuck out most, to me, was the lack of defenses against magic. Seriously. We have evasion and...moving. Spell resistance only goes so far, especially in end-game, and that does nothing against the vast majority of damaging spells, which, at the end of the game, can be devastating.

    When, in any D&D game, novel, or anything, has any wizard or sorcerer not gone without their spell mantle or actual shielding spells? It's hardly dignified for an archmage to dodge behind a rock, anyway. Defensive spells like nightshield and shield are near useless at the end of the game (except for absorbing magic missiles, which aren't widely used) because their resistance bonuses don't stack with anything. Protection against Energy is about as useful as shielding yourself from a nuclear attack by standing behind a wall; it'll work for a moment until it melts. And I'm not talking about blur, displacement, or stoneskin; those are defenses against physical attacks, not magical.

    I say we need to add lesser/greater spell mantles to the arcane spell list. Not powerful ones, just enough to shrug off a few spells so that arcanes don't get obliterated when they shouldn't have to. You could have it act like stoneskin, but stronger, and absorbs magic damage of any kind; to balance it out you could give it a lengthy cooldown to prevent complete immunity to spellcasters.

    And no, losing casting ability to take two levels of rogue or monk is not a solution, that's a workaround.
    Actually, I find non-damage spells to be the threat, not damage spells. Most damage spells are elemental, and there is a lot of available elemental absorption gear that gives a % reduction in damage. Plus, you can grab fireshield / coldshield and twist energy sheath for electric.

    But for holds and the like, you can't get SR high enough to help, and spell absorption items are limited.

  8. #8
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    4,561

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    In other words; there is none.
    Deathblock & Deathward vs. instakills & other effects, castable/clickable protection/resist/fireshield, %based neg.energy & elemental damage mitigation, plus a host of spell absorption items from rechargeable (Mantal, Ione Stone, Jewled Cloak) to expendable (Scarabs of protection & spell absorption). Globes of invulnerability...

    Yah, we're really short on non-evasion based options for dealing with incoming spell & effect damage... Seriously?

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not in the "Epic Elite" is too easy camp, but I do firmly believe that failure needs to be a very real possibility, especially in high-end at-level content. IMO, if I can have a gear checklist that assures me of survivability vs. anything but a lengthy lag-spike, something's wrong. If an epic Wizard is brining his wrath to bare on me, I should not be able to stand in the blast, give it the finger and taunt "Is the best you've got?!" They should be feared, or at least a source of concern; not something that can be scoffed at because I have my (X) equipped, or my (Y) defense is in place so they're not a threat.

    I'm sorry op, I guess with all the options available, I just don't see where you're coming from...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  9. #9
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    9,989

    Default

    those are items and spells to absorb the spells. they are not items or spells to resist against them. get the difference?

    the only thing that doesn't absorb is DW/DB. the only time ive seen anyone actually use a Globe is Hound. you cant pick up the globe and run around with it.

    spells like SR need to some how be useful beyond say level 15. to be honest, I have spent AP on boosting spell saves and never noticed a difference. energy absorption can be gone in just a couple hits on a melee in upper levels and into epics, so depending on how nimble the caster is, maybe a few more hits before its gone? certain spells in general do need to scale up. SR 30 for heroics is fine, but not for epics. nightshield only gives +3 resistance by level 9. if not scale up, than a new epic spell list of options. it could have some of the same spells, but at level 20 you can switch out for epic spells that scale better for epics. it would be OP for heroics though.

  10. #10
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    4,561

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    those are items and spells to absorb the spells. they are not items or spells to resist against them. get the difference?

    the only thing that doesn't absorb is DW/DB. the only time ive seen anyone actually use a Globe is Hound. you cant pick up the globe and run around with it.

    spells like SR need to some how be useful beyond say level 15. to be honest, I have spent AP on boosting spell saves and never noticed a difference. energy absorption can be gone in just a couple hits on a melee in upper levels and into epics, so depending on how nimble the caster is, maybe a few more hits before its gone? certain spells in general do need to scale up. SR 30 for heroics is fine, but not for epics. nightshield only gives +3 resistance by level 9. if not scale up, than a new epic spell list of options. it could have some of the same spells, but at level 20 you can switch out for epic spells that scale better for epics. it would be OP for heroics though.
    Yes, I get the difference between absorption and resistance; and I agree some more effective SR in epic content would be nice. I've often thought it was too bad that SR items/spells didn't stack with Drow racial or Monk class based SR (or for that matter that Drow & Monk don't stack).

    I do wonder, however, what the sought-after "benchmark" would be? 50%? 80? Or would it become the AC/DC "holy grail" search for that no-fail immunity point? Granted, not all spells are subject to SR, but enough are that between evasion, deathblock/ward and whatever would be deemed "effective" or "worth-while" spell resistance, I easily see enemy casters getting trivialized.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  11. #11
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    5,345

    Default

    Enemy casters are the least deadly things in ee imo, they tend to be easier to stun or trip. That said here are some defenses

    evasion -- already touched on
    good saves -- makes it half damage
    primal armor -- 10% absorption of all elemental damage
    pale lavender ioun stone -- spell absorption
    jeweled cloak -- spell absorption
    mantle of the worldshaper -- spell absorption
    fire shield hot -- 50% cold absorption
    fire shield cold -- 50% fire absorption
    energy sheath -- 50% chosen elemental absorption usually electric
    globe of invulnerability
    twitch skills
    hp and self healing
    scarab of protection

    these are not mutually exclusive either so you can layer your defenses and get very high to almost magic immunity for elemental damage
    Last edited by Charononus; 07-11-2013 at 12:35 AM.

  12. #12
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Hidden in a secret hold
    Posts
    995

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    In other words; there is none.

    I was reading another thread and the thing that stuck out most, to me, was the lack of defenses against magic. Seriously. We have evasion and...moving. Spell resistance only goes so far, especially in end-game, and that does nothing against the vast majority of damaging spells, which, at the end of the game, can be devastating.

    When, in any D&D game, novel, or anything, has any wizard or sorcerer not gone without their spell mantle or actual shielding spells? It's hardly dignified for an archmage to dodge behind a rock, anyway. Defensive spells like nightshield and shield are near useless at the end of the game (except for absorbing magic missiles, which aren't widely used) because their resistance bonuses don't stack with anything. Protection against Energy is about as useful as shielding yourself from a nuclear attack by standing behind a wall; it'll work for a moment until it melts. And I'm not talking about blur, displacement, or stoneskin; those are defenses against physical attacks, not magical.

    I say we need to add lesser/greater spell mantles to the arcane spell list. Not powerful ones, just enough to shrug off a few spells so that arcanes don't get obliterated when they shouldn't have to. You could have it act like stoneskin, but stronger, and absorbs magic damage of any kind; to balance it out you could give it a lengthy cooldown to prevent complete immunity to spellcasters.

    And no, losing casting ability to take two levels of rogue or monk is not a solution, that's a workaround.
    ok, give casters that spells that you want

    also give enemy casters the same spell

    ddo is way too easy for casters right now (have done all blue bars x 3 lives and only once had evasion, a wiz life with 2 rogue lvls) if player casters get a new general spell, give it to enemies too

    btw if you consider splashing 2 lvls like "losing casting ability" then u're doing it wrong
    psykopeta - hoarding pl, for the sake of hoarding, the day i become ubercompletionist will be because there isn't anything to delay it more - thelanis, where the gimps claim to be pros and noobs claim to be pros, no newbies allowed(unless they claim to be pros), we have enough drama w/o them. PS i'm not a pro, maybe if i reincarnate in RL...

  13. #13
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    2,302

    Default

    They should make an epic feat which would uncap some of the defensive buffs and/or make them AoE

    Uncap
    * Resist Energy: 40 at CL 21, 50 at CL25, 60 at CL29, .. or so
    * Protection from Energy spells: 10 per level, no cap
    * Aid, Aid Mass
    * Shield of Faith/Mass
    * Quench (somehow)

    Uncap, make them AoE
    * Ablative Armor
    * False Life
    * Reinforce Construct
    * Barkskin? Spiderskin?

    Make them AoE
    * Stone to Flesh / Shadowwalk / Shield / Nightshield
    * Elemental Weapons, Deadly Weapons, Adamantine/Silver/etc
    * Thundering Armor, Lucky Cape
    * Panacea?, Raise Dead?, Reincarnate?
    * Focusing Chant, Expeditious Retreat, See Invis
    * Neutralize Poison, Remove Disease, Remove Paralysis, Remove Curse, Remove blindness, Lionheart
    * Zeal?, Ram's Might?, Pass without trace, Wild Instinct
    * Tumble, Jump?, Magic Fang, Align Fang
    * Enveloping Swarm

  14. #14
    The Hatchery
    2014 DDO Players Council
    Dandonk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    5,276

    Default

    I lik the idea of spell mantles, but I think there would have to be some limits to their usefulness or they'd just make magic a non-issue. Maybe a fairly long CD (20-30 secs, perhaps, or longer - not sure what the numbers should be).
    It's definitely an N-word.

  15. #15
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    916

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cru121 View Post
    They should make an epic feat which would uncap some of the defensive buffs and/or make them AoE


    Make them AoE
    * Stone to Flesh / Shadowwalk / Shield / Nightshield
    * Elemental Weapons, Deadly Weapons, Adamantine/Silver/etc
    * Thundering Armor, Lucky Cape
    * Panacea?, Raise Dead?, Reincarnate?
    * Focusing Chant, Expeditious Retreat, See Invis
    * Neutralize Poison, Remove Disease, Remove Paralysis, Remove Curse, Remove blindness, Lionheart
    * Zeal?, Ram's Might?, Pass without trace, Wild Instinct
    * Tumble, Jump?, Magic Fang, Align Fang
    * Enveloping Swarm
    Ok, right now I'm going to say that if you could make Zeal and Ram's Might an AOE this would have 2 effects. If you can cast either one, it's going to be just like the casters. If you don't have that feat you're going to be kicked from the party, end of story. That's how ridiculous people will become with that kind of stuff.

    And two, Zeal as an AOE buff? Holy dear God I want that so bad.

  16. #16
    Community Member Noctus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    In the green heart of GERMANY - where wilderness means the next village is 3 klicks away.
    Posts
    4,543

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    In other words; there is none.

    Whut?!?!!

    Are you actualy playing the game? There are tons of effects that help against magical attacks. Just to name a few:
    * Spell Absorption items
    * Energy Absorption items
    * Deathward
    * Deathblock
    * 4 gazillion different and stacking ways to boost your Saves
    * Fireshield/Coldshield
    * and more stuff


    This thread smells to me like a Crybaby-thread by someone who got trounced in a too-hard-for-him quest.
    Erzskalde (Warchanter) / Erzmarschall (melee FvS) / Erzsoldat (waiting for TR-time) / Erzschmied (ranged Artificer)

    AOK - From Argonnessen

  17. #17
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    2,302

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    Ok, right now I'm going to say that if you could make Zeal and Ram's Might an AOE this would have 2 effects. If you can cast either one, it's going to be just like the casters. If you don't have that feat you're going to be kicked from the party, end of story. That's how ridiculous people will become with that kind of stuff.

    And two, Zeal as an AOE buff? Holy dear God I want that so bad.
    Yeah, well, as an epic feat, it should have epic requirements. Perhaps 21 Int or Wis or Cha? And Paladins are feat starved. So.. yeah. Mass Zeal is powerful, no doubt about that. It's melee only though. And everyone's soloing anyway. Ram's Might is 2-4 damage, that's almost negligible - but nice. More likely coming from caster Druids than Rangers though.

    This would be even nicer as an epic destiny twist.

  18. #18
    Community Member CheeseMilk's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Canadia
    Posts
    1,840

    Default

    Call Lockhart; although he might not remember to show up.

    But seriously, the only thing that needs to be changed as far as buffing goes is the ridiculous gap between the mobs' ability to dispel and the players'.

  19. #19
    Community Member darthhento's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    854

    Default

    During my travels I have found that best defence against is to kill the enemy caster outright. They have a really hard time casting when they're dead.
    =$==$==$==$==$==$==$==ORIEN==$==$==$==$==$==$==$=
    Darthwolf **(?_?) Zendarth m(?_?m) Darthnoheals \(?_?)
    =$==$==$==$==$==$==House Do'Urden==$==$==$==$==$==$=

  20. #20
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    3rd star from the left, and on til morning...
    Posts
    2,629

    Default Three little words : "Anti Magic Shell"

    A very long time ago in a land far far away there lived a Paladin, and he adventured for a very very long time throguh a whole variety of trials and triumphs.

    Just before he retired he was graced with a most wonderful weapon, a Holy Sword with Anti-Magic Shell.

    That was very cool.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload