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  1. #1
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    Default Healing Bard: Secondary Feat Advice

    I'm looking for some feat advice on playing a 'Pure' Spellsinger bard that can provide some decent healing.
    I'm rejoining the game after a long hiatus and used a stone of experience to catch up to some friends that are at level 15 now.

    They are... I guess you could call it 'softcore' -- not looking for efficiency or even elite quests mostly, and there will be many deaths I'm sure but they are having fun, so thats all the matters. So far they've been doing everything without grouping with others -- a Ranger, Paladin, Artificer and Wizard -- with healing hirelings for backup. I'd like to replace one of those hirelings.

    My Original plan was to dump all stats but cha, acquire some metamagic(maximize, extend, quicken) feats and get greater spell focus enchantment so I can provide some Spell CC along with Songs. Recently, however I got some +3 tomes, and some Charisma weapons (at first the moonhowl axe, now a pair of dynastic falcatas) -- I also have a bunch of melee gear. I know speccing around specific weapons is gimping me a long run but I'm willing to have to use specific weapons; Is a cha-based TWF Spellsinger a thing that people do? If I switched from CC to Melee as my secondary focus -- it would allow me to save Spellpoints for Healing/buffs and not have CC compete for that. I would keep spellsinger so I could have more SP/SP regen and therefore more longevity on healing. The major problem I see is Lack of feats:

    My take on important feats:

    For any Bard:
    Toughness
    Extend (?)

    For Healing, Ideally you'd want (in my opinion in descending order)
    Maximize
    Quicken
    Empower Healing
    Magical Training

    For Melee (would be able to swap out the khopesh feat/slashing to piercing if I ever got the epic cha weapons)
    Two Weapon Fighting
    Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    Greater Weapon Fighting
    Improved Critical (slashing for now)
    Power Attack
    Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


    A human Pure bard is 4 feats short -- so what do I cut?
    Magical Training, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting and Power attack are on the chopping block right now -- but I'm not sure what else to cut..


    Would I be better off with the original plan and just stacking DC for CC instead of these melee feats? I could still use a charisma weapon to whack things that don't need to be CCed along with a healing shield (I have wall of wood)

    Also, I have no idea what a good resource would be to find level 15 gear; I have some money and A 17 Artificer as resources, and I don't mind doing some quests, I'm just not sure where/how to look.

    I still have a heart of wood; and I have +3 tomes str/dex/cha;
    Last edited by Narninian; 07-09-2013 at 07:06 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member Alektronic's Avatar
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    Have you looked at Anthios's build and philosophy post (The Classic Rocker)?

    Code:
    For a TWF version in the spirit of Anthios's build, I'd make 3 tweaks: 1] drop 2 points of str (to 16) and 2-4 points of char (to 10 or 12) to boost dex for TWF feat chain requirements, 2] cleave feats -> TWF feat chain, 3] stick to racial weapons.  That bonus tohit/dmg on racial weapons will make quite an impact leveling and at cap.
    
    When the enhancement pass hits > switch maximize for empower healing (much more powerful healing feat, especially with ED twists), and also switch out Toughness for Extend.
    There is a good bit there about the benefits of full char (few if any) vs. full str (many). In a nutshell, full charisma build is primarily useful for spell DC casting, and adds little to your healing potential. At the moment, the charisma-based weapons are a leaps and bounds behind traditional weapon types in terms of dps. It's no fun meleeing if you hit like a wet noodle =P.

    That being said, what advantages are you trying to get out of a max charisma build? Is it just bc you are short on gear, and want to use what you have laying around? If that's the case, I would suggest building smth like Classic Rocker, crafting some greater bane weapons (temporary use), then head over to Vale of Twilight (do you have that pack yet?), and cranking out some greensteel (litII or triple pos are both excellent choices for a first). It's a little bit of work, but you will have much more fun with your toon in the long run, short run, all runs. If you are lucky enough to have BTA crafting blanks, you can even reuse those crafted weapons on any future toons you plan on building! (if you have a shared bank).

    Bard DC casters by design are a bit short on sp. That will change a bit with the enhancement pass, but I definitely would suggest trying a full melee/heal bard out and comparing for yourself to see what matches your build concept better.

    WB and happy hunting.
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  3. #3
    Community Member ZeebaNeighba's Avatar
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    At epic levels, Inspire Excellence. Can you say, "whole party gets completionist"?

    +2 charisma means, of course, +1 DC. So if you have to drop something, it is straight up better than a spell focus feat.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alektronic View Post
    Have you looked at Anthios's build and philosophy post (The Classic Rocker)?

    Code:
    For a TWF version in the spirit of Anthios's build, I'd make 3 tweaks: 1] drop 2 points of str (to 16) and 2-4 points of char (to 10 or 12) to boost dex for TWF feat chain requirements, 2] cleave feats -> TWF feat chain, 3] stick to racial weapons.  That bonus tohit/dmg on racial weapons will make quite an impact leveling and at cap.
    
    When the enhancement pass hits > switch maximize for empower healing (much more powerful healing feat, especially with ED twists), and also switch out Toughness for Extend.
    There is a good bit there about the benefits of full char (few if any) vs. full str (many). In a nutshell, full charisma build is primarily useful for spell DC casting, and adds little to your healing potential. At the moment, the charisma-based weapons are a leaps and bounds behind traditional weapon types in terms of dps. It's no fun meleeing if you hit like a wet noodle =P.

    That being said, what advantages are you trying to get out of a max charisma build? Is it just bc you are short on gear, and want to use what you have laying around? If that's the case, I would suggest building smth like Classic Rocker, crafting some greater bane weapons (temporary use), then head over to Vale of Twilight (do you have that pack yet?), and cranking out some greensteel (litII or triple pos are both excellent choices for a first). It's a little bit of work, but you will have much more fun with your toon in the long run, short run, all runs. If you are lucky enough to have BTA crafting blanks, you can even reuse those crafted weapons on any future toons you plan on building! (if you have a shared bank).

    Bard DC casters by design are a bit short on sp. That will change a bit with the enhancement pass, but I definitely would suggest trying a full melee/heal bard out and comparing for yourself to see what matches your build concept better.

    WB and happy hunting.
    My primary concern is being able to heal --- and not being a cleric/favored soul/etc.. I realize that I won't do it as well and I need to be able to provide some other function, which from my understanding is Melee or CC; I thought MAX Cha would be nice, because it would possible if I did want to swap out feats (From fred) to Do CC; I would have the right stats.
    I hadn't considered green steel --- to the best of my understanding this requires raiding and level 16 stuff? My group won't even be doing elites, and I havn't had the best luck pugging (I can't lead the groups, and there is never one running exactly what I need).

    Adventure packs are not an issue I'll buy what I need and I already have Vale of twilight --- the raiding part is probably a major concern though, as is finding a group to do what I need at level 15, that doesn't assume I know everything and in a 1-2 time window. .

    I also havn't seen a lot of recent builds that have lined up what what I'm looking for --- and I really am looking at this from a leveling perspective rather than a maximized level 20 / epic level build.

    I suppose, though, without Spell focus feats --- there really is no point in Charisma, and I could just pump str to unlimit my weapon selection....... Assuming I use my Heart of wood to swap to strength, how does this save me feats? Spellsinger still provides a significant benefit to healing (spell cost reduction, spell point return, bigger spell pool, UMD bonus, etc..) so Maximize, quicken, empower healing, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Improved critical, OTWF, Power Attack, Extend, Toughness --- not sure what to drop....
    Last edited by Narninian; 07-10-2013 at 01:20 AM.

  5. #5
    2015 DDO Players Council Dodoroq's Avatar
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    To get decent healing out, you do not need all the feats you have mentioned. Definitely not - I have tried that and it works. What I would recommend to you with enhancement pass in mind would be:

    Go Human. 8 feats + 2 epic ones.

    Go pure. Bonus to Charisma and DC's, bonus spells with the enhancement pass (Wail of the Banshee and HEAL).

    Go full charisma specced if caster (see below) or strength specced if melee as secondary aim. Caster Specced: 14/8/14/8/8/18, all level ups charisma, if you have more than 28 points, deliver them to Con. Melee Specced: 16/8/16/8/8/15, all level ups to strength, if you have more than 28 points, feel free to rearange for Str 18.

    Go Spellsinger. Even if you will have full charisma, you will still need more SP, and those 200 from Spellsinger are handy in that (not mentioning the vigor song). Spellsinger also can work with a feat you want to have anyways - Maximize. Alternatively, go Virtuoso for nicer crowd control not based on spells (no feat investment). They will merge after enhancement pass anyways.

    Feats: For healing build, you really need just Quicken and Maximize. With gear, your mass spells will hit for around 36 base HP a target. Count in the enhancements (just 60 from class, 15 implement and 120 item = 195) and Maximize and you are looking on 265 HP a target if they have no healing amplification. You can go even higher with Empower Healing spell and better enhancements and better gear (up to cca 370 a cast), but that might be a bit overkill because people will have healing amplification and you can cast really quick. So for that you just need two feats, rest are going to be free to use. On top of that, Heal skill will add to your healing power after enhancement pass and you can have a high one. Toughness is definitely not a must.

    Spend rest of the feats for times when you will not be healing. Extend is definitely nice to have, Inspire Excellence is a must in epic ones. Other than that, I would say, pick either casting way (raise DC's and mainly Spell Penetration, but I wouldn't recommend this without Wizzy past lives) or melee way (Power Attack, Cleave, Greater Cleave, Improved Critical:chosen weapon type and Overwhelming Critical as Epic one).

    If I went first-life 32 points bard now specced for healing, I would select:

    Human, pure, 18/8/16/8/8/14, feats (level when taken): Maximize (1), Magical Training (1, Human Bonus), Power Attack (3), Cleave (6), Extend (9), Improved Critical:Slash (12), Greater Cleave (15), Quicken (18), Inspire Excellence (21), Overwhelming Critical (24).

    You would be able to heal well and fight well too - grab a greataxe, cast Master's touch, and rock!

    PS: I did similar build on my bard first life and was able to solo heal Hard Shroud, Normal ToD or function as second healer anywhere. I went the caster way unfortunately, and on a first-life bard, that really was not optimal as in EE's and partly in EH's too, my spells were not able to go through Spell penetration.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Wanesa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narninian View Post
    My take on important feats:

    For any Bard:
    Toughness
    Extend (?)
    Toughness becomes not worth for feat slot very soon (after enhancement update)
    Actually I did not take Extend yet. At lvl 10 as support toon i am able to watch duration of each buff and rebuff other members anytime during battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Narninian View Post
    For Healing, Ideally you'd want (in my opinion in descending order)
    Maximize
    Quicken
    Empower Healing
    Magical Training
    Magical Training worth for feat slot and i took it at lvl 1. You will never loose ability to cure some wounds. I plan to take Maximize or Empower Healing, i didn't decide yet. But I don't recomend to take both, two feat slots is high price.

    Magical Training feat will part of Spellsinger PrE after Enhancement Update so you will receive a free feat slot

    Quote Originally Posted by Narninian View Post
    For Melee (would be able to swap out the khopesh feat/slashing to piercing if I ever got the epic cha weapons)
    Two Weapon Fighting
    Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    Greater Weapon Fighting
    Improved Critical (slashing for now)
    Power Attack
    Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
    You can really cross out OTWF. There is a lot of powerful light weapons which you can you hold in your other hand. I am playing halfling - dextery based Bard having to pay one slot for Weapon Finesse. If you planning to focus on procs, you should keep ImpCrit and GWF, and cross out Power Attack.

    There is my feat list (including planned) - DEX based halfling Bard
    1. Magical Training
    3. TWF
    6. Weapon Finesse
    9. ITWF
    12. EmPH / Max - Probably MAX
    15. Improved Critical
    18. Toughness
    21. InspExc

    After enhancement update
    1. TWF
    3. Weapon Finesse
    6. ITWF
    9. EmPH / Max - Probably EmPH for Spellsinger's Heal
    12. Improved Critical
    15. GWF
    18. <Free slot> - spell focus / spell pen?
    21. InspExc
    Last edited by Wanesa; 07-10-2013 at 03:33 AM.

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  7. #7
    Community Member Alektronic's Avatar
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    Just to clarify my suggested build, since you didn't see it the first time ^_^.

    TWF human pure 20 bard (per your request)

    Stats: str > 16, dex > 14-16, char > 10-12
    level ups all in str

    Feat list:
    1 toughness (or extend after the update)
    1 power attack
    3 maximize (empower healing after the update)
    6 quicken
    9 twf
    12 improved critical
    15 improved twf: slashing
    18 greater twf
    21 inspire excellence
    23 epic toughness, extend, or khopesh proficiency

    To heal, you really only need quicken + either maximize OR empower healing, and honestly that's for the mass cures only. Heal scrolls will be the mainstay for single target heals (make sure you max UMD!). If you decide to play epics more, twist rejuvenation cocoon.

    I, personally, think THF build (Classic Rocker) gels better with human, but if you want TWF, and you're stuck with human, go for it by all means. You'll still rock it ^_^.

    As for as shroud flagging.... yes, it's raid gear. You can definitely start Shroud flagging at lvl 15 (the Twilight pack first came out when 15 was level cap), and it shouldn't be difficult to get into a raid group for it, but you'll have to accept an xp penalty, bc most groups run at lvl cap 25. If you need help running through the quests, feel free to PM any of the toons in my sig on Thelanis weekends. There is also a "mentor program" on the forums, and you can put your name on their list and quickly get someone to help you on your server.
    Alternatively, House Cannith challenges have a slew of weapons that are close to greensteel caliber, but have the benefit of being farmable in 1 day. I still would suggest thinking about Shroud flagging though, bc you can craft clothing/jewelry that give stacking hp and sp with any gear available in heroic content.

    Hope that was helpful. o/
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alektronic View Post
    Just to clarify my suggested build, since you didn't see it the first time ^_^.

    TWF human pure 20 bard (per your request)

    Stats: str > 16, dex > 14-16, char > 10-12
    level ups all in str

    Feat list:
    1 toughness (or extend after the update)
    1 power attack
    3 maximize (empower healing after the update)
    6 quicken
    9 twf
    12 improved critical
    15 improved twf: slashing
    18 greater twf
    21 inspire excellence
    23 epic toughness, extend, or khopesh proficiency

    To heal, you really only need quicken + either maximize OR empower healing, and honestly that's for the mass cures only. Heal scrolls will be the mainstay for single target heals (make sure you max UMD!). If you decide to play epics more, twist rejuvenation cocoon.

    I, personally, think THF build (Classic Rocker) gels better with human, but if you want TWF, and you're stuck with human, go for it by all means. You'll still rock it ^_^.

    As for as shroud flagging.... yes, it's raid gear. You can definitely start Shroud flagging at lvl 15 (the Twilight pack first came out when 15 was level cap), and it shouldn't be difficult to get into a raid group for it, but you'll have to accept an xp penalty, bc most groups run at lvl cap 25. If you need help running through the quests, feel free to PM any of the toons in my sig on Thelanis weekends. There is also a "mentor program" on the forums, and you can put your name on their list and quickly get someone to help you on your server.
    Alternatively, House Cannith challenges have a slew of weapons that are close to greensteel caliber, but have the benefit of being farmable in 1 day. I still would suggest thinking about Shroud flagging though, bc you can craft clothing/jewelry that give stacking hp and sp with any gear available in heroic content.

    Hope that was helpful. o/
    It was... I kind of ignored the Classic rocker because the thread was a few years old, and was a warchanter build - but I didn't realize there was more recent edit, and it qualifies for spelllsinger so the enhancements could easily be changed.

    For the level 15 feat you put Improved TWF: Slashing --- the sounds like an awesome hybrid feat that gives improved critical and extra critical chance for slashing weapons while dual weilding I'm sure you meant to put ITWF, but I would think improved critical would be a bigger boost than GTWF.

    Anyway... If I swap to ThF as you're suggesting -- I would be taking weapon focus and Power attack? Actually sounds like a good tradeoff - I'd be getting a higher attack chance. I'd thinking magical training over the mental toughness suggested in the classical rocker, though.

  9. #9

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    Dont take following:
    magical training(sp songs r enough), extend(just dont), maximize(use only emp heal).
    Wasnt reading carefuly, but it appears u want everything... dont do that.

    Im looking for end game point of view. CHA based wpns arent worth the effort.
    For healing emp heal s best. low sp cost plus it works with twists: cacoon and reneval(this one is rly cool).


    hope i helped a little with feat selection


    Quote Originally Posted by Narninian View Post
    It was... I kind of ignored the Classic rocker because the thread was a few years old, and was a warchanter build - but I didn't realize there was more recent edit, and it qualifies for spelllsinger so the enhancements could easily be changed.

    For the level 15 feat you put Improved TWF: Slashing --- the sounds like an awesome hybrid feat that gives improved critical and extra critical chance for slashing weapons while dual weilding I'm sure you meant to put ITWF, but I would think improved critical would be a bigger boost than GTWF.

    Anyway... If I swap to ThF as you're suggesting -- I would be taking weapon focus and Power attack? Actually sounds like a good tradeoff - I'd be getting a higher attack chance. I'd thinking magical training over the mental toughness suggested in the classical rocker, though.
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  10. #10
    Community Member Alektronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narninian View Post
    For the level 15 feat you put Improved TWF: Slashing --- the sounds like an awesome hybrid feat that gives improved critical and extra critical chance for slashing weapons while dual weilding I'm sure you meant to put ITWF, but I would think improved critical would be a bigger boost than GTWF.

    Doh, typo, glad you caught it . the weapon focus on Classic Rocker is actually to qualify for WC only. For THF SS build, I would go with what others suggested in the thread.


    Stats: play around with strength, I like 16 for a higher dex/reflx score but most ppl go whole hog (18).


    Feat progression: PA and toughness > cleave > maximize > great cleave > improved crit slash or bludgeon > quicken > extend... Epic feats overwhelming crit and epic toughness or inspire excellence. When update hits, you can decide what you want to do with toughness. Again maximize would switch out to empower healing.
    For THF, slashing is prolly better for leveling, but imo bludgeoning is by far stronger choice in end game play.


    cleaving is useful leveling up, and opens up LD laywaste/momentum swing for epic levels. Ironically, this build originally (before EDs) did level ups in charisma and had some utility DC casting ability. You can still do that (drop cleaves and extend for greater spell pen, spell focus ench, heighten optional). Unlike TWF DC caster, this build is viable esp with stellar twists, past lives, and gear, but from my experience, less fun than the melee bard, just bc of the overlap between fascinate and DC casting on bards. Classic Rocker's current posted SS build still puts lvl ups in str iirc, and is really a healbot build, not caster IMO D:


    As said before in other posts, magical training not helpful on bards. If you are just looking for extra sp, I'd suggest using more scrolls (heal, gh), getting sp gear, considering epic mental toughness(3 feats total), or rerolling as a fvs ~.^
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  11. #11

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    Power attack
    Cleave
    Great cleave
    Quicken spell
    Empower healing
    Improve crit slashing
    Inspire excellence
    Overwhelming critical

    STR and CON build using spellsinger PrE. This is pretty straight forward cleave spammer and you have a couple of feats to play with as well as less worry about DEX in your point buy with room for more feats to taste. Ideally completionist and pally past life would be the fillers on it, and maximize for the AoE mass cure bursts.
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  12. #12
    Community Member NovaNZ's Avatar
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    Default as often I agree with the XP of ohers

    Hail all.
    Aashrym essentially has it covered (as one comes to expect)

    Zongen has Max only (a current req option for SS presently) and drops quicken for Imp crit blunt (uses sireth with Fathesinger for sonic vulnerability).

    Anyways Bards can still make a meaningful ( and noteworthy) contribution to healing role as secondary fiddle (sometimes primadona when group and Q diff allow).

    Keep Barding all !!
    Last edited by NovaNZ; 07-15-2013 at 06:30 AM.
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  13. #13
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    Maybe this is something you'd like:

    17 bard, 2 fighter, 1 wizard (human) STR-based

    Toughness
    Epic Tougness (E)
    Inspire Excellence (E)
    Extend

    Power Attack
    TWF
    iTWF
    gTWF
    Prof: Khopesh
    Improve crit: slashing

    Quicken
    Empower Healing
    Maximize
    Magical Training (free from wizard)

    -----

    Or the more common variant.
    With rogue for evasion, instead of wizard for magical training + extend:

    16 bard, 2 fighter, 2 rogue (human) STR-based

    Toughness
    Epic Tougness (E)
    Inspire Excellence (E)

    Power Attack
    TWF
    iTWF
    gTWF
    Prof: Khopesh
    Improve crit: slashing

    Quicken
    Empower Healing
    Maximize

    -----

    However, if you want to stay pure:

    20 bard (human)

    Toughness
    Inspire Excellence (E)

    Power Attack
    Cleave
    Great cleave
    Improve crit: slashing
    Overwhelming critical (E)

    Quicken
    Empower healing
    Maximize
    Last edited by Rull; 07-19-2013 at 04:38 AM.

  14. #14
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    I have a Support Bard in Cannith, this is my build, mybe it can help.

    Human
    STATS:


    STR 16 +3 tome +lvlup
    DEX 14 +4tome
    CHA 16 +4tome
    COS 16 +4tome +1 lvlup
    HP ~800
    SP ~2100


    FEATS:

    1 Toughness
    1U Extended [Haste, Displacement]
    3 Empower Healing [work on heal]
    6 Mental Toughness
    9 TWF
    12 Quicken
    15 Power Attack
    18 I TWF
    21 Inspire Excellence
    24 Epic Toughness
    26ED Lasting Inspiration
    27 GTWF
    28ED Perfect TWF

    I use 2 Keen III Rapier so i save IC slot.

    ITEMSET ( endgame ):

    White Dragon Helm [I Cos 3, Green:Vitality, Yelloweathblock]
    White Dragon Hide [HF, Green:SFL]
    Stolen Necklace [Cha 10, Wiz IX, yellow: I Con +1]
    Prismatic Cloak [Elemental Absorpion 30%, Res 10, Green: ]
    ToD Ring [E Cha 1, HA 20%]
    Ring of Deceit [Cha 8, Improved Deception, Perform, Diplo, Bluff, Haggle 20]
    Gauntlet of Immortality [Devotion 120, S Healing Lore, Heal 20]
    Threads of Falling Shadow [Dex 8 i Dex 3, Striding 30%]
    GS Bracer [150 sp, Wisdom 6, Concordant Opposition]
    GS Googles [45 HP, Radiance Guard]
    Skullduggery Kit [Dodge 10%, Yellow: Strength 8]
    Planar Focus of Prowdess[I Str 3]

    WEAPONS
    Balizarde
    Celestia
    Deadly Wepons of Riposte

    ENCH:
    Spellsinger T5 and capstone for Heal spell.
    Wharchanter T4 Core for BAB 20.


    Heal
    Heal Spell
    Cocoon
    Renew
    Mass Moderate
    Mass Light


    CC: only by song
    Irresistible Otto
    Fascinate [+2 damage with sharp note]
    Entrallment
    Capering
    Sirens


    I easly solo (with the shiradi hire for huge boss) most EE Quest with the new Enanchment Revamp, we can now mesmerize undead, construct, ooze and spider (ed).
    With normal monster 50% miss u, so use riposte VII item, for add damage between 2 hit. Trigger Diplomacy in group for use the Boast (+1W = Deadly) and Shadowdancer Stance (1d6 sneak, 2 damage).
    Turn the Tide work great, but my max duration was 1 min and the cooldown its impossibile. I hope te devs fix it.
    Last edited by Pantanaccio; 08-22-2013 at 02:14 AM.

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