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  1. #81
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    Can someone explain to me what the purpose of Dungeon scaling is besides discouraging groups? How can the issue of lack of LFM's be addressed when the game is designed to encourage soloing?

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by DakDeFrosted View Post
    Can someone explain to me what the purpose of Dungeon scaling is besides discouraging groups? How can the issue of lack of LFM's be addressed when the game is designed to encourage soloing?
    The stated purpose was to enable people to solo because Turbine said their exit survey showed people were quitting because it was too hard to play unless you wanted to group.

  3. #83
    Community Member pHo3nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DakDeFrosted View Post
    Can someone explain to me what the purpose of Dungeon scaling is besides discouraging groups? How can the issue of lack of LFM's be addressed when the game is designed to encourage soloing?
    Dungeon scaling does not discourage groups; it discourage grouping with people that aren't worth the added scaling. Grouping with other 5 good players is usually faster/better than soloing. How many times do you get 5 other good players in a PuG though?

    Azarddoze is right: there's basically a lack of respect towards others. I would never join a group for a quest if i'm not sure i can contribute enough.
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  4. #84
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    Grouping with other 5 good players is usually faster/better than soloing.
    I found this out on Saturday. In a full group (2 guildies and 3 puggers) I think we ran 6 quests in the time it would have taken me to solo 2 of them.

  5. #85
    Community Member darthhento's Avatar
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    1. Disable death penalty to effect an entire group (as well as reentry)

    2. Give better xp for higher level quests

    3. Remove BB while providing more xp for first time bonuses

    4. Give the ability to "pull" a player into the quest as it takes way too long to explain to a new player where the quest is situated.
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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by darthhento View Post
    1. Disable death penalty to effect an entire group (as well as reentry)

    2. Give better xp for higher level quests

    3. Remove BB while providing more xp for first time bonuses

    4. Give the ability to "pull" a player into the quest as it takes way too long to explain to a new player where the quest is situated.
    1. I think it's fair to say that trying to aim for not dying is a good thing and I don't see how removing this could help. Would most likely add some lazyness / random zerg because people "wouldn't care" anymore. "Why should I wait for this noob... Even if he dies..."

    2. While I agree the XP should be rebalanced, this has nothing to do with helping groups.

    3. BB is a good thing, feeling like it is a MUST is another. But I understand that when you're on your 3rd life+ you have to get that xp somewhere and it won't happen with running stuff on normal. But the more XP you give on the hardest difficulty, the more people without skills/gears will have an even better incentive to jump in.

    4. Not a bad idea but could be limited by Turbine's technology. I don't see how it would help grouping in general though. Maybe avoid some frustration (waiting) but that's about it. I don't see this preventing someone from joining a LFM he wants to join.

    It's a good thing to look for solutions but spotting the problem first kinds of help.

    Edit: Thinking about it, removing re-entry for all the group would just open the door for exploits. And I can also see some "suicide" move going on without the group death penalty as well.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 07-11-2013 at 07:54 AM.
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  7. #87
    Community Member darthhento's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    ~snip~
    Regarding:
    1. It's not like anyone cares now anyway. New player gets into zerg group, gets left behind, dies and gets immediatly booted with profanities about him dying. Dying isn't necessarily a bad thing. That's how I learned where all the traps in quests are.

    2. It does since average TR zerger will farm good xp/min quests 6 or more times while an average PUG will give up after two runs. More xp per quest will give incentive to keep the original group going.

    3. No, it's not a good thing. If you see a group doing hard or normal you will not join them since it will break your streak. Now if first time bonuses were higher you would get the same xp but wouldn't matter if you ran norm, hard or elite first. You would still run elite once for favor.

    Regarding re-entry, I think you misunderstood me. You currently have a 10% Persistence bonus which affects the party if nobody re-enters the quest. And you have 10% Flawless Victory if nobody dies. There are griefers that will kill themselves, and re-enter just to mess with your xp. This way it would only affect them and not the entire group. This way if YOU haven't died or re-enter YOU would still get YOUR 10% Flawless Victory and YOUR 10% Persistance.
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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by darthhento View Post
    Regarding re-entry, I think you misunderstood me. You currently have a 10% Persistence bonus which affects the party if nobody re-enters the quest. And you have 10% Flawless Victory if nobody dies. There are griefers that will kill themselves, and re-enter just to mess with your xp. This way it would only affect them and not the entire group. This way if YOU haven't died or re-enter YOU would still get YOUR 10% Flawless Victory and YOUR 10% Persistance.
    I understand what you said but never had to deal with a griefer re-entering. On the other end let's say you're failing at the end of a quest and are out of shrines... I don't think it's fair that someone takes a penalty but then can come back and change the whole outcome for the whole group.

    For the rest, I guess we'll have to agree that we see it differently heh. Except maybe for BB where I still am not 100% certain of the impact it has on everyone. As for me: I don't run Elite just for the BB but for more exp/fun in general. I don't find the act of facerolling content enjoyable.

    BB or not, the way I see it is the difficulty setting should be a way in itself to filter the playerbase... but it is not the case most of the time. So now people are scared to post their LFM for the reasons we've read so far in this thread or others.
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  9. #89
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    I'd like to chime in and toss my hat into the ring.

    From personal experience, I will list why I won't (don't) group more than I do for Turbine reps to consider or ignore.


    - Bravery Bonus. This is the biggest factor by far. I, like many others will not break my streak when I know I have good content coming up. I don't want to loose the bonus. If it was removed, I would likely join the group running chain XYZ on hard rather than wait for a group running on elite, but since I have not hit it this life, I will wait.

    - 12 year olds. I have no desire to run with children. I am an adult player looking to enjoy my experience with other adults. I realize this is hard to control, which is one reason why I stay away from random people on the LFM.

    - I zerg. I play fast and hard and have a very hard time slowing down while flower sniffers check around that corner. More people means more mobs, and inflated HPS (thanks to scaling). More often than not randoms are less likely to be able to handle themselves. I don NOT like to wait 20 minutes between quests. This keeps me grouping with my guild, or my friends list more often than the LFM panel

    - Guilds. Why look outside the guild when you can complete quests with like minded people in 1/2 the time of a PUG, with no XP loss.

    - Please Share. /facepalm

  10. #90
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DakDeFrosted View Post
    Can someone explain to me what the purpose of Dungeon scaling is besides discouraging groups? How can the issue of lack of LFM's be addressed when the game is designed to encourage soloing?
    In PnP, a benevolent DM would adjust the difficulty of an adventure to match the party going through a quest, at least that's what I did and every DM I came across. So this is the same idea as dungeon scaling. Having said that, I do think (as we all do) that something should be adjusted / tweaked to encourage more grouping.

    I do not think removing of all scaling is a good idea. I remember the days before we had scaling. Everyone was incentivized to only run in completely full groups of 6 people, because every person you added made the quest go smoother / faster. There was plenty of waiting around for that 6th spot to fill, and I would not want to go back to those days. Also, when I was a newer player this was discouraging because invariably you would get into groups with zergers, when you wanted to take your time exploring the quest.

    The system needs to support letting people play how they want. At this point, the system is just a little too solo / non-PUG friendly.
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  11. #91
    Hatchery Hero Inthuul's Avatar
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    Eliminate Bound to Character on Acquire. This item type discourages being able to be flexible about what character/class you bring to the group. (Besides it being an incredibly frustrating loot mechanic for a player and therefore likely not a good design.)

  12. #92
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmeth View Post
    In PnP, a benevolent DM would adjust the difficulty of an adventure to match the party going through a quest, at least that's what I did and every DM I came across. So this is the same idea as dungeon scaling. Having said that, I do think (as we all do) that something should be adjusted / tweaked to encourage more grouping.

    I do not think removing of all scaling is a good idea. I remember the days before we had scaling. Everyone was incentivized to only run in completely full groups of 6 people, because every person you added made the quest go smoother / faster. There was plenty of waiting around for that 6th spot to fill, and I would not want to go back to those days. Also, when I was a newer player this was discouraging because invariably you would get into groups with zergers, when you wanted to take your time exploring the quest.

    The system needs to support letting people play how they want. At this point, the system is just a little too solo / non-PUG friendly.
    I think the biggest problem is the WAY they scale.

    As a DM I would generally change the numbers and perhaps composition of an encounter based on the party (though there were times when I certainly didn't). What I didn't change is the actual stats.

    For example if I am playing with Goblins and Orcs. Then I might have more of one than the other or include a Warg rider here or there but one Goblin was as tough as the next.

    With DDO not only to they scale the encounter size they scale the monster difficulty. They should jsut do one or the other IMHO. By doing both they are making it infinitely easier to solo because not only do I get fewer mobs to smash through they are individually weaker.

    I think that they should let the difficulty determine the CR and the number in the party determine the encounter size. And scaling should only happen on solo, norm and to a limited degree Hard. Let Elite stand on it's own the quest is as tough as it's going to be if you have 1 or 3 or 6 players.

    same goes for the epic scales.

    I honestly thought that was how it was supposed to work originally anyway.


  13. #93
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inthuul View Post
    Eliminate Bound to Character on Acquire. This item type discourages being able to be flexible about what character/class you bring to the group. (Besides it being an incredibly frustrating loot mechanic for a player and therefore likely not a good design.)
    Not btcoa leads to situations like neverwinter where people ninja loot to sell everything and then buy their gear, no thank you.

  14. #94
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fejjj View Post
    I'd like to chime in and toss my hat into the ring.

    From personal experience, I will list why I won't (don't) group more than I do for Turbine reps to consider or ignore.


    - Bravery Bonus. This is the biggest factor by far. I, like many others will not break my streak when I know I have good content coming up. I don't want to loose the bonus. If it was removed, I would likely join the group running chain XYZ on hard rather than wait for a group running on elite, but since I have not hit it this life, I will wait.

    - 12 year olds. I have no desire to run with children. I am an adult player looking to enjoy my experience with other adults. I realize this is hard to control, which is one reason why I stay away from random people on the LFM.

    - I zerg. I play fast and hard and have a very hard time slowing down while flower sniffers check around that corner. More people means more mobs, and inflated HPS (thanks to scaling). More often than not randoms are less likely to be able to handle themselves. I don NOT like to wait 20 minutes between quests. This keeps me grouping with my guild, or my friends list more often than the LFM panel

    - Guilds. Why look outside the guild when you can complete quests with like minded people in 1/2 the time of a PUG, with no XP loss.

    - Please Share. /facepalm
    I was fine with everything you said until "please share". you talk about moving fast and don't like to wait around between quests, but you don't like sharing a quest to someone so they don't have to run to the quest giver, grab the quest and than run to the quest?

  15. #95
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inthuul View Post
    Eliminate Bound to Character on Acquire. This item type discourages being able to be flexible about what character/class you bring to the group. (Besides it being an incredibly frustrating loot mechanic for a player and therefore likely not a good design.)
    I would rather see BTCoE go away. its fine in high level loot because if I equip it to my character than he will probably use it for a long time and I specifically look for certain items for specific characters. when I see it on low level loot when I might be level 6 one day and level 7 a few hours later, its not worth binding it to him when I share my gear with all my characters. ive seen some decent items I would have worn on my lowbies, but ill just sell it to someone else instead.

  16. #96
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    I was fine with everything you said until "please share". you talk about moving fast and don't like to wait around between quests, but you don't like sharing a quest to someone so they don't have to run to the quest giver, grab the quest and than run to the quest?
    Both of you have points, some quests this makes sense for like relic of a soveriegn past or whatever it's called, however I've lost track of the absurd number of times I've had a pug up for vale quests looking for company and gotten asked for a share.

  17. #97
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Both of you have points, some quests this makes sense for like relic of a soveriegn past or whatever it's called, however I've lost track of the absurd number of times I've had a pug up for vale quests looking for company and gotten asked for a share.
    yeah, ive been in groups before when that has happened. its no big deal to me. im one of those helper types. but, I know where every quest is in Eberron and where the quest givers are. don't ask me how to get through Demonweb or Sschindylryn though. ive been playing for almost 4 years and a very experienced player that has run those quests a bunch of times. I just don't know how to get there.

  18. #98
    Hatchery Hero Inthuul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Not btcoa leads to situations like neverwinter where people ninja loot to sell everything and then buy their gear, no thank you.
    What is the down side? Do you really feel it's better to rely on charity or random rolls to get the items you want?
    Actually, I think the loot system may deserve it's own thread.

    Not to take DDO back to PnP, because it's pretty far deviated from that, but when you get an item in PnP you don't want, you trade or give it to a party member, which bind on equip still allows, or you sell it, which bind on equip allows. Though unfortunately now you will likely need to use the shard auction house as plat appears to be almost useless.

  19. #99
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inthuul View Post
    What is the down side? Do you really feel it's better to rely on charity or random rolls to get the items you want?
    Actually, I think the loot system may deserve it's own thread.

    Not to take DDO back to PnP, because it's pretty far deviated from that, but when you get an item in PnP you don't want, you trade or give it to a party member, which bind on equip still allows, or you sell it, which bind on equip allows. Though unfortunately now you will likely need to use the shard auction house as plat appears to be almost useless.
    That works for pnp grouping but mmo's are different and require different things. Low level average gear I have no problem with btcoe, high level btcoe should be extremely extremely rare and not the standard.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inthuul View Post
    What is the down side? Do you really feel it's better to rely on charity or random rolls to get the items you want?
    It does seem like people should have to actually quest for the things that they want. Having a large number of people running the quests for more than a week or two after the content out is a very good thing for the game. As was seen with the current model, quite a few people came back for Update 17. They ran the epic Gianthold stuff for 3-5 weeks, and then promptly vanished from DDO again. Anything that they did not pull they were able to trade whatever items the had pulled for very easily, leaving them no reason to stick around with so much of the game (Cap increase, Enhancement Trees, TRing, etc) being up in the air.

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