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  1. #41
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inthuul View Post
    Would a complete revamp of xp/min equalization across all quests increase grouping?
    I highly doubt it would have much of an effect because of this…

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    THere's many factors that keep me from joining pugs with unknown people, and a potential loss of ten percent isn't one of them. They include, will this person be a jerk? Will this person want to do all the optionals and break everything, dropping xp/min to a horrible rate? Will this person run this dungeon in a suboptimal manner? I usually end up just deciding things will go better if I don't join the group. In order for me to start grouping with random people, I need something that answers these questions for me. The only thing I can think of would be an elaborate and accurate rating system that rates each toon.
    I fall into the same category as this. Not tooting the horn, but if I can solo a quest, why bother bringing someone else that may do one of the above? I know that people will come out and call it antisocial and all that, but running into any of the above is not fun for me. If I am not having fun, why play?

    You will always have zergers that join a learning LFM and you will have flower sniffers join the zerg LFM’s. Until you stop this, you will always have the problem. People just don’t want to take the chance and end up in a group with “that type” that ruins their fun. Some may like the box of choclates with pugs, but I am definitely not one of them.
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  2. #42
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inthuul View Post
    Would a complete revamp of xp/min equalization across all quests increase grouping?
    I don't see why it would. Besides, xp/min is entirely too subjective as people run quests at different paces. A heavy armored pally going as fast as they can will get less xp/min than a barb-splashed sorc. There simply is no way to "fix" that.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    I don't see why it would. Besides, xp/min is entirely too subjective as people run quests at different paces. A heavy armored pally going as fast as they can will get less xp/min than a barb-splashed sorc. There simply is no way to "fix" that.
    Just multiply completion time by some amount to directly award XP/min.
    [Okay, with a flat completion bonus too.]

  4. #44
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    Default Creating more incentives to group is a worthy goal

    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    The majority of people who have posted to this thread should not be grouping with anybody IMO.

    The Devs should not listen to any of the ideas presented here so far ...

    While I see all of these things as problems with people and not the game.... one cannot ignore that the problems still exist.. and are hurting the game........
    LOL. I agree, there is a problem, and it impacts new player experiences a great deal. I believe something needs to be done and the hinted at "Harbor revamp" by MajorMal indicates, to me, that they know its a problem.

    There are a couple of things that are low hanging fruit, imo:

    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    The +10% xp "bonus" for no one dying is.... kinda a fail for lack of better words. (sad.. but hard to dispute)
    1) I could not agree more. While the idea of not dying should be rewarded, a worthy intent, actual game pay shows it to be a divider among the player base and harsh on new players. This xp reward should be re-designed, re-named, something. For example, if you complete all optionals, award an extra 10%.

    2) Remove the penalty for joining a group in progress. While there may be some who could try to abuse this, given the game and where it is at, I think its time for removal has come.

    3)
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Remove scaling on elite.
    I agree. Aside from running significantly above level, even twinked uber players should be challenged to solo elite at level, even low and mid-levels.

    4)
    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    Bravery Bonus streaks are also viewed as essential. (which causes people to want/preasure others... to do elite, whether or not the party is ready for it or will find it an enjoyable experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    If you want to encourage grouping then you need to remove BB honestly. Since the mechanic was introduced the PUG and group scene has dropped dramatically.
    Yes, and yes.

    5)
    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    I may have xp pots running. Pots that I paid money for that dictate that I "should" be running as fast as I can to maximize my xp/$ spent. If I'm slowed down in any way, I'm losing money. Give me a way to stop that pot timer or mitigate my loss by helping out other groups or new players and that's the key to getting me to group up more.
    Fair point. I wonder if they couldn't offer an xp pot with a 'pause' feature - for extra TP, of course. Although it would be a nerf now, I always thought they should have made the pots good for a # of quests rather than timed. Timers encourage solo and zerg play. Removing the timer would at least remove the barrier to this discouragement.

    6)
    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Significantly increase the drop rates for named/extremely rare items and augments for every additional player in the party, with an additional bonus for full parties comprised of six separate players.

    It's susceptible to multi-boxers, but that's got to be such a small population I don't think it would be a bigger deal than it is now.
    I also like this idea and agree; loot is a big motivator. How many vets joined the proverbial Bloodstone runs? As long as explorers and quests both count, this is a big thumbs up. We are Monty Haul already, having some trickle down to the masses won't hurt.
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  5. #45
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    LOL. I agree, there is a problem, and it impacts new player experiences a great deal. I believe something needs to be done and the hinted at "Harbor revamp" by MajorMal indicates, to me, that they know its a problem.

    There are a couple of things that are low hanging fruit, imo:



    1) I could not agree more. While the idea of not dying should be rewarded, a worthy intent, actual game pay shows it to be a divider among the player base and harsh on new players. This xp reward should be re-designed, re-named, something. For example, if you complete all optionals, award an extra 10%.

    2) Remove the penalty for joining a group in progress. While there may be some who could try to abuse this, given the game and where it is at, I think its time for removal has come.

    3) I agree. Aside from running significantly above level, even twinked uber players should be challenged to solo elite at level, even low and mid-levels.

    4)



    Yes, and yes.

    5)

    Fair point. I wonder if they couldn't offer an xp pot with a 'pause' feature - for extra TP, of course. Although it would be a nerf now, I always thought they should have made the pots good for a # of quests rather than timed. Timers encourage solo and zerg play. Removing the timer would at least remove the barrier to this discouragement.

    6)

    I also like this idea and agree; loot is a big motivator. How many vets joined the proverbial Bloodstone runs? As long as explorers and quests both count, this is a big thumbs up. We are Monty Haul already, having some trickle down to the masses won't hurt.
    1. I would be fine with additional xp for completing all optionals. some quests already do this like Tear. but, some quests only have 1 optional.

    2. IP groups with no late entry deduction would be highly abused. real easy to do. join. if you know a quest well enough, you can wait until people chat or talk about the quest. you can get a good idea how much longer before completion. you could ask. there would be drama for sure if a group is just starting and the leader says to hurry and jump in, we are almost done.

    3. I agree with. elite is supposed to be the hardest difficulty. most heroic quests aren't very challenging for a decently skilled player.

    4. BB is also an issue because theres no incentive to re-run a quest on elite after completing it, other than challenge for some and loot. I don't think it needs to go away, but redesigned. some groups usually stick together and hard farm or like in Vale, hit all the quests with the same group. I think more people are learning not to leave after every quest and instead, if the group is at least decent, continue questing together until the group breaks.

    5. I don't really see a big deal with stopping the timer on xp pots. when I jump into a poor xp quest, I could pause it until I run a better xp quest. if im in a group that is painful and theres a chance of not completing, I could just pause the timer so not to waste more minutes. if Turbine was to do this, I think you should have to pause it before entering the quest and cant turn it back on until before you enter the next quest.

    6. I don't think it would be fair to increase drop rates just because there are more people in the group. certain old rare drop rates do need to be bumped up, but it shouldn't be easier to pull rare items than the guy who wants to solo farm for the same thing. we already have enough loot drama in the game.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrande View Post
    Or DDO could put in a new grouping system like Neverwinter's. Go to the quest journal, click on a button Queue for <quest> with <difficulty>, a new dialogue opened informed you of an ETA. DDO will automatically picked random people from the queue and formed the party and automatically picked a party leader. Of course this system would have automatically assigned a party healer if none of the divine classes are available in the queue after a timeout period.

    This is really going to be in the spirit of you don't know what you're going to get.
    The problem with this is, even in Neverwinter no one uses this for the difficult dungeons. The only difference is that the dungeons don't start to get difficult until you are in the later Tier 2 epics. DDO is more difficult than Neverwinter by a massive range from level 14 on, which is the entire reason why no one uses the LFM panel. They don't want to group with people that are going to slow them down.

    "The Problem with Grouping" isn't a problem with grouping at all. It is a problem with public grouping via the LFM panel. Namely, most or the people who know what they are doing have stopped using it. The only way that this is going to change is with a cultural shift in DDO's player base, not some ridiculous arbitrary rules to push people into grouping.
    Last edited by ForumAccess; 07-09-2013 at 10:48 PM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    "The Problem with Grouping" isn't a problem with grouping at all. It is a problem with public grouping via the LFM panel. Namely, most or the people who know what they are doing have stopped using it. The only way that this is going to change is with a cultural shift in DDO's player base, not some ridiculous arbitrary rules to push people into grouping.
    This is the truth. I was pugging a lot, I still do LFM sometimes, but mostly I run with guildies / friends in game now. I would say 70-80% of the players are doing quests in static groups / guild groups. Many quests / raids are forming by inviting friends / or using user channels, so those one won't pop up in public grouping. Some plays only with family or real life friends. You can't force people to do public groupings, just because 10-20% of the players are still on the level of "public grouping or not playing at all". If you are in that 10-20%, you should consider first, are you in the right guild? Or are you on the right server? Don't force us (the majority), to do everything through public grouping, just because you can't find 2-3 people to share your playtime!!

  8. #48

    Default I concur.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I highly doubt it would have much of an effect because of this…



    I fall into the same category as this. Not tooting the horn, but if I can solo a quest, why bother bringing someone else that may do one of the above? I know that people will come out and call it antisocial and all that, but running into any of the above is not fun for me. If I am not having fun, why play?

    You will always have zergers that join a learning LFM and you will have flower sniffers join the zerg LFM’s. Until you stop this, you will always have the problem. People just don’t want to take the chance and end up in a group with “that type” that ruins their fun. Some may like the box of choclates with pugs, but I am definitely not one of them.
    I am in in the exact opposite category as you two. I like to "smell the roses". I'm not into zerging or achieving the highest xp per minute. However, like yourselves, I think our end goals are the same; we play for the enjoyment (however that's defined).

    I don't like the idea of "rating" a character, but there should be a way to make it extremely clear as to ones intentions and playing style. I think that might go a long way towards alleviating some of the anxiety with joining or creating an LFM.
    Last edited by SlightlySycophantic; 07-10-2013 at 04:16 AM.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yalinaa View Post
    This is the truth. I was pugging a lot, I still do LFM sometimes, but mostly I run with guildies / friends in game now. I would say 70-80% of the players are doing quests in static groups / guild groups. Many quests / raids are forming by inviting friends / or using user channels, so those one won't pop up in public grouping. Some plays only with family or real life friends. You can't force people to do public groupings, just because 10-20% of the players are still on the level of "public grouping or not playing at all". If you are in that 10-20%, you should consider first, are you in the right guild? Or are you on the right server? Don't force us (the majority), to do everything through public grouping, just because you can't find 2-3 people to share your playtime!!

    Well, about half the pop is usually solo or in open lfm´s, the other half is shared by people which are in dungeons with hires, people in non lfm pug´s and people that grouped by other means. No one really uses anon.
    From my experience, seeing who steps out of dungeons etc. most of those grouped would be solo with hires.


    Pugs work very well in the first couple of levels which are more populated due to all the favor farmers and there being enough f2p quests that everyone can enter, can have a group going over several hours if you want to as they refill quickly if someone leaves, you level very fast so almost everyone of your level pretty much has done the same quests, no one is really equipment farming.
    After that there are fewer players and those will be split by available quests, quests already done solo due to lack of grouping options, the need for specific equipment, flagging and so on, so that is when the lfm system becomes defunct.
    Groups take to long to fill, to many people leave after just one quest for it to be even worth it to put up an lfm in the first place if you can somehow solo it. Doubt that many new players stay after encountering that part of the game.
    The only way to fix it would be to broaden the player base for it.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    THere's many factors that keep me from joining pugs with unknown people, and a potential loss of ten percent isn't one of them. They include, will this person be a jerk? Will this person want to do all the optionals and break everything, dropping xp/min to a horrible rate? Will this person run this dungeon in a suboptimal manner? I usually end up just deciding things will go better if I don't join the group. In order for me to start grouping with random people, I need something that answers these questions for me. The only thing I can think of would be an elaborate and accurate rating system that rates each toon.
    "Suboptimal" is relative. How about "Will this person want to zerg through the quest at a majillion miles an hour, bypassing all the optionals (which give you more XP) and ignoring the breakables (which give you more XP) while whining about 'xp/min'? Will they be the kind of player that treats DDO as a job,, where they have to maximize production vs time? Or will they simply see DDO for what it is (a GAME....something to be ENJOYED?"

    For some...the players that worry about things like xp/min are the ones that create "suboptimal" gaming experiences.
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  11. #51
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    Default It's not the game

    It's not the game it's the players. I play this game to have fun. I play 99% of the time with guildies because I enjoy playing with them and I know what I'm gonna get. Don't get me wrong I like meeting and helping new players. The problem I have with the lfm is the know it all your toon sucks and the run thru the quest as fast as you can types.

    Example just the other day I joined a group doing an epic elite quest. Soon as I joined I hear thru chat one member telling the other that he can run thru this quest with his uber toon and the reason they died is he did not buff him properly. Then he starting spouting off about the high lvl guilds he quit cause he was to uber even for them. What the other guy should do with his toon and on and on. I'm thinking great but I stuck it out. A couple more people joined. Started the quest and a few of us died because we sucked, of course the guy with the uber toon only died because he was lagin and the game sucks. A few minutes later I hear the comment directed at me "It would be nice if we had a real Druid". I should have left the group right there on the spot but I didn't. We finished the quest but I guess that wasn't good enough.

    People like this is why the lfm is dying. I can group with friends and guild mates and not have to listen to this ****.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grahson View Post
    It's not the game it's the players ... People like this is why the lfm is dying. I can group with friends and guild mates and not have to listen to this ****.
    Well, players like that have been around since Day 1. Anyone who thinks differently is fooling themselves. Seems to me that people focus on negatives, like your example. But how did you find other people and friends? For most, it was through lfm pugging.

    Guilds and static groups are no guarantee of avoiding situations like yours. I have seen and read through the years of guilds imploding and friendships ending over loot drama or game drama of some type. Players change guilds everyday over the very issues like you raise.

    I believe the devs should tweak the incentives to encourage more lfms. Yes, you will meet some jerks. You will also meet and make new friends. Isolationism in a game is no better than in life, imo.
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  13. #53

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    Some of the ideas in this thread are good, but some are horrible. First, if you mess with dungeon scaling, you will basically eliminate the solo option. Like it or not, many solo because it's the only way they can play the game. I'm a single father with a household to run. I need to be able to park my toon in a corner, or near a shrine and attend to other responsibilities. When I run in a group, I need to give that group my undivided attention. There are already significant penalties designed into this game for people who solo.

    Hurt the solo option, player base goes down by x%. x% less money for Turbine - everyone is hurt.

    Second, at level Heroic Elite is already extremely challenging to 90% of players. In fact, when I solo, I rarely run at level elite, as the xp/min suffers. I don't have good gear (because this is the biggest penalty for playing solo), but I build my toons well.

    Turbine has already made several expensive changes to the system to encourage grouping, while making the game solo friendly. Personally, I think they've done a very nice job steering this boat. The core problem is low server populations. Allowing LFMs to cross servers is a high probability solution, but would be significant programming. Server merges are cheaper.

    The one and only incentive to group should be for social reasons. Fix the LFM problems by increasing player base. Increase player base by releasing more content (and a graphics face-lift would help too), and make all content solo friendly.

  14. #54
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    ...
    I believe the devs should tweak the incentives to encourage more lfms. Yes, you will meet some jerks. You will also meet and make new friends. Isolationism in a game is no better than in life, imo.
    I love running with my guild mates, I enjoy running quests with Channels I'm a member of. But I still join PuGs and form PuGs. To me in all the time I've been playing this game I've only met 2 Squelch worthy people and only one was an issue that required reporting - I don't take kindly to party abuse/abusive language.

    I like PuGing myself for two reasons.
    1. Learn new perspectives. Even as a long time player sometimes you can pick up some nifty tricks/short cuts from other players
    2. Teaching new players tactics that can help them both in the current quest as well as quests to follow.
    3. Meeting more players some of which you want to meet up with again.

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    The problem with this is, even in Neverwinter no one uses this for the difficult dungeons. The only difference is that the dungeons don't start to get difficult until you are in the later Tier 2 epics. DDO is more difficult than Neverwinter by a massive range from level 14 on, which is the entire reason why no one uses the LFM panel. They don't want to group with people that are going to slow them down.
    If people don't want to use the grouping tool, they do not get the say, +20% random grouping bonus. It can be entirely optional.

    "The Problem with Grouping" isn't a problem with grouping at all. It is a problem with public grouping via the LFM panel. Namely, most or the people who know what they are doing have stopped using it. The only way that this is going to change is with a cultural shift in DDO's player base, not some ridiculous arbitrary rules to push people into grouping.
    Yes, most of the people with 20+ TR past lives with uber equipment and lots of time and knows what they're doing (since they have done it a lot of times)

    That's why the system needs to be modified for the people with less past lives and less available time so that they can be rewarded with more XP when grouping since they completed dungeons slower (or prefer to run slowly) and needs a group due to the lack of equipment and/or lack of skills.

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  16. #56
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    I agree with getting rid of the 5% and 10% penalties. We should get nothing for Turbine's bad AI deaths and keeping the 10% to the dead person is good for grouping.

    Other than than, only eliminating dungeon scaling (which they won't do since the created that to make all dungeons solo friendly) would be of any use. Right now it is usually easier to solo (especially on norm/hard) than it is to group, so most choose not to group. Soloing (especially on elite) using to be for the real pros only.

    Little grouping bonuses for the group leader will probably only make things worse as the "leader" wants to wait for that last person or two to get his 2% that no one else gets and the rest of the group will just bail and join another group or solo. It would also make the "I won't join until the group is almost filled" problem worse as people will know its more likely they will wait around forever.

  17. #57
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    It looks in game like most people are soloing or perhaps running with a hire. I check the who list fairly frequently and there are plenty of people on most of the time. Dungeon scaling & making the game solo friendly seems to be working as intended. People have a tendancy not to want to do things with strangers.

    I suspect those who do are the fringe feaky type people. Think about most things in life. You don't see people going out to dinner and sitting down with strangers at their table. You generally don't go to a bar and drink with people you don't know. Who shows up at a church with sign saying "looking for wife"? Haha, just kidding about that one.

    The point is though, some people seem to have the idea that because it's a video game, social dynamics change. Yes, to a certain extent that is true. I just doubt all that many people really care about pick up games. Even in basket ball, pick up games are usually the same people who frequent a court & not so much random strangers. Once people find their guild, static group, etc. they probably don't give much of a hoot about this stuff.

    Turbine is spot on about making the game short-person/ solo friendly. It's nice to have the grouping options but I highly doubt many paople really care to group with strangers much.

    TL;DR Tubine should not do anything whatsoever to encourage grouping. People who want to get on, make friends & group are quite welcome to AS-IS. Maybe try being nice & fun to play with/quit crying that someone got better treasure than you.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blood View Post
    Like it or not, many solo because it's the only way they can play the game. I'm a single father with a household to run. I need to be able to park my toon in a corner, or near a shrine and attend to other responsibilities. When I run in a group, I need to give that group my undivided attention.

    Second, at level Heroic Elite is already extremely challenging to 90% of players. In fact, when I solo, I rarely run at level elite, as the xp/min suffers. I don't have good gear (because this is the biggest penalty for playing solo), but I build my toons well.
    I´m the same kind of player... you don´t happen to play on G-land, do you?

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blood View Post
    First, if you mess with dungeon scaling, you will basically eliminate the solo option ... There are already significant penalties designed into this game for people who solo ...
    and make all content solo friendly.
    The only real penalty to solo are the handful of quests that require 2 real bodies to complete.

    The suggestion to remove scaling on Heroic Elite, is a good one, imo. It originally was that way as I recall and it was supposed to stay that way. Wasn't it a bug that there was elite scaling and just left that way? I can't recall right now. If you are good enough to solo Elite content bravo; otherwise, that should be an extreme challenge to do solo, except for the very best players. Elite should mean you pause before clicking it - that deep breath before the plunge.

    I don't believe making all content (i.e., raids) soloable is a good idea, at all. It would only be another element of devolvement of this game into a single person, non-mmo. MMOs, imo, are meant for parties and should not cater to soloists.


    Quote Originally Posted by Blood View Post
    The core problem is low server populations ... Fix the LFM problems by increasing player base. Increase player base by releasing more content (and a graphics face-lift would help too)
    I am certain they are trying what they think will work to increase the player base. It may not be working, but I am sure this is a goal of theirs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrande View Post
    I supposed this can be checked. If all those boxes that has multiple logins coming from the same base router, disable those grouping bonuses.
    Na, not enough ppl multiboxing to risk dissing family groups, college kids, etc.

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