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  1. #21
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Just get a US player you know in guild or vent to submit it on your behalf and if you win you can get the computer at least just pay for the shipping from your U.S. buddy. Might even be able to register the free account for lifetime access but I doubt it.

    Not a total loss, international friends.

  2. #22
    Community Member PpalP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night....


    Contest law varies even more between different countries. If you were to open up a contest to people all over the world, you would have to research the law in every single country on earth, to avoid getting yourself in legal trouble. For a typical promotional contest, this is just too much work. The legal fees for the required research would be much more than the payoff of the promotion. Additionally, there are some problematic legal questions inherent in any international contest. For example, if something were to go wrong, -- say, the prize was lost in shipping -- what court would the contest winner go to? It would be a very tough legal question just figuring out who had jurisdiction.

    What it comes down to is that it's just too much work for a company to find out how to cover themselves, legally, in multiple countries and in all states. After all, the typical rules and regulations of a contest running only in the United States take up 20 or so paragraphs. Just think how small a company would have to make the print to cover itself internationally!

    So, is it worth it for Turbine to research the law on every country on Earth?

    No.

    Sucks for our International players for sure. But that is the way the world works. Now if Turbine had the financial resources of Google as per your example, then it might not be. Not to mention, the prize in your example is for a school district and NOT for an individual.

    Turbine is just doing what is in their best interest, legally.
    Hey men, I just said that isn't illegal to make an international contest, as you stated; so please, revise your post if you want, but there is no necessary to change international laws to make an international contest.

  3. #23
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PpalP View Post
    Hey men, I just said that isn't illegal to make an international contest, as you stated; so please, revise your post if you want, but there is no necessary to change international laws to make an international contest.
    No, he was stating that in order for Turbine to make the contest international, there would have to be a global set of laws and there isn't. Turbine is not going to invest in the amount of lawyer time it would take to make it global like google already has. Yes he wasn't clear, but that was the intention in typical forum short tongue speak.

    Being owned by WB does NOT make it WB (a faliacy I keep seeing repeated on these forums.) As a brand (which is what is as well) Turbine makes it or dies on their own. So long as they are profitable WB will probably keep them. Once they become to much of a drag, like any parent company they will either be sold off or ended.

  4. #24
    Community Member Urjak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night....


    Contest law varies even more between different countries. If you were to open up a contest to people all over the world, you would have to research the law in every single country on earth, to avoid getting yourself in legal trouble. For a typical promotional contest, this is just too much work. The legal fees for the required research would be much more than the payoff of the promotion. Additionally, there are some problematic legal questions inherent in any international contest. For example, if something were to go wrong, -- say, the prize was lost in shipping -- what court would the contest winner go to? It would be a very tough legal question just figuring out who had jurisdiction.

    What it comes down to is that it's just too much work for a company to find out how to cover themselves, legally, in multiple countries and in all states. After all, the typical rules and regulations of a contest running only in the United States take up 20 or so paragraphs. Just think how small a company would have to make the print to cover itself internationally!

    So, is it worth it for Turbine to research the law on every country on Earth?

    No.

    Sucks for our International players for sure. But that is the way the world works. Now if Turbine had the financial resources of Google as per your example, then it might not be. Not to mention, the prize in your example is for a school district and NOT for an individual.

    Turbine is just doing what is in their best interest, legally.
    As your example shows, the majority of problems arises once you have a competition with a monetary reward. That's why I suggested a second competition without such a monetary reward. So the only prize one would get would be the prestige of a forum title plus knowing that one of the tattoos was your design. AFAIK such competitions are a lot less complicated and definitely within Turbine's capabilities (while ones with a monetary prize may not - idk). Just take "Daily Dice" rolls. Yes that's lottery and not competitions, but afaik, legally they are very similar ... and o - m - g all players around the world can partake ... why? my guess is because there are no monetary fees to partake and no monetary prizes to get.

    Discriminating might have been a bit exaggerated, but if I exclude people from an awesome activity, because they have the wrong parents / are born at the wrong place - this, in my eyes, is discrimination ... (if laws would actually prevent us, non-US citizens from partaking in any way at all I would understand it ... but from past occasions I remember that Turbine - I think it was Thoon - but not sure anymore - too long ago - stated themselves, that the main reason for people from outside the US to be excluded from contests / lotteries were the legal problems with monetary rewards => but no monetary reward would then in my logic mean "no" problems ... not taking this opportunity then means that the choice to exclude non-US citizens is not because of laws that can't be circumvented, but because some people at Turbine / Warner Bros decided that they don't care. Which leads us back to discrimination (though admittedly it's a little exaggerated - but what do you expect from game forums? ;P)
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  5. #25
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    Just get a US player you know in guild or vent to submit it on your behalf and if you win you can get the computer at least just pay for the shipping from your U.S. buddy. Might even be able to register the free account for lifetime access but I doubt it.

    Not a total loss, international friends.

    Just make damn sure that friend is a real good one and would not walk off with that 4k PC.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
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  6. #26
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urjak View Post
    As your example shows, the majority of problems arises once you have a competition with a monetary reward. That's why I suggested a second competition without such a monetary reward. So the only prize one would get would be the prestige of a forum title plus knowing that one of the tattoos was your design. AFAIK such competitions are a lot less complicated and definitely within Turbine's capabilities (while ones with a monetary prize may not - idk). Just take "Daily Dice" rolls. Yes that's lottery and not competitions, but afaik, legally they are very similar ... and o - m - g all players around the world can partake ... why? my guess is because there are no monetary fees to partake and no monetary prizes to get.

    Discriminating might have been a bit exaggerated, but if I exclude people from an awesome activity, because they have the wrong parents / are born at the wrong place - this, in my eyes, is discrimination ... (if laws would actually prevent us, non-US citizens from partaking in any way at all I would understand it ... but from past occasions I remember that Turbine - I think it was Thoon - but not sure anymore - too long ago - stated themselves, that the main reason for people from outside the US to be excluded from contests / lotteries were the legal problems with monetary rewards => but no monetary reward would then in my logic mean "no" problems ... not taking this opportunity then means that the choice to exclude non-US citizens is not because of laws that can't be circumvented, but because some people at Turbine / Warner Bros decided that they don't care. Which leads us back to discrimination (though admittedly it's a little exaggerated - but what do you expect from game forums? ;P)
    My example says nothing of a monetary reward, short of the payoff from the promotion, just a prize from a contest. And that definition changes from county to country!

    Go and look up International Law in relation to contests from Turkey, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, Japan, Korea, UK, Soviet Republic, and any other Country and you will see how daunting a task this is that people are asking Turbine to do. This is the only realistic option available to them, besides not doing the contest.

    While it sucks, and I do sympathize, it is far easier and legally sound to provide it to US only.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  7. #27
    Founder THAC0's Avatar
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    Interesting idea.

  8. #28
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    I know it's not Turbine's fault that this is a US only contest. It's not supposed to be discriminatory, but it sure feels like it. Whether it's the fault of Turbine or not, there is a discriminatory element to it. Saying it's not discrimination because of a legal technicality doesn't make it any less annoying and left out of the loop for being a non-US citizen in this case.

    Just like every time I try to google a video clip and end with a Hulu (or other clip site) which states that I'm not able to see the clip simply because I don't live on the proper side of an invisible line somewhere. Yes, at the end of the day, it's a legal issue why I can't do some things, but I want to hope that some day we won't need rules like this to further push a divide between people that we learn in school are supposed to be equal and all treated with the same respect, regardless of ethnic background or country of residence.

    So no, I don't blame Turbine, but it is still discrimination, even if it's someone else telling Turbine they have to discriminate.
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  9. #29
    Community Member XiaNYdE's Avatar
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    US Only!...... Really, Really? Feeling a little discriminated against here!
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  10. #30
    Founder Perceval's Avatar
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    Default I Want That Skin

    BAH... Turbine is not discriminating, your country's laws all suck. Looking at the rig, there is a definite possibility that the FTC would prohibit its shipment internationally even if you won.

    What I really want to know is are you going to be selling that Skin ... I WANT... I WANT... I WANT

    The System is cool, but looking at the equipment in it, it is worth about $ 2100.00, and honestly I build better for my spare computers.... but that skin...I WANT ... I WANT... I WANT..

    To Paraphrase the Blues Brothers.... Your Skin...Your Skin.... How Much for Your Skin.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phesic View Post
    I think a good term is "Nuber": A Newb who thinks he's uber.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    I know it's not Turbine's fault that this is a US only contest. It's not supposed to be discriminatory, but it sure feels like it. Whether it's the fault of Turbine or not, there is a discriminatory element to it. Saying it's not discrimination because of a legal technicality doesn't make it any less annoying and left out of the loop for being a non-US citizen in this case.

    Just like every time I try to google a video clip and end with a Hulu (or other clip site) which states that I'm not able to see the clip simply because I don't live on the proper side of an invisible line somewhere. Yes, at the end of the day, it's a legal issue why I can't do some things, but I want to hope that some day we won't need rules like this to further push a divide between people that we learn in school are supposed to be equal and all treated with the same respect, regardless of ethnic background or country of residence.

    So no, I don't blame Turbine, but it is still discrimination, even if it's someone else telling Turbine they have to discriminate.
    The complainers shouldn't worry, last time Turbine held a "Win this computer contest" back around 2008 or so. They never announced or bothered to say anything about anybody actually winning.

    Maybe someone will win, then again maybe not. Hard to say

    Hey, maybe they could give a non-U.S. person U$4,300.00 in TP's.

  12. #32
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    so, the votes, do they mean anything? you said the judges were DDO staff and such so its not just going to be whoever gets the most votes right?

  13. #33
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Why not allow people from, I don't know, the rest of the world (just a little minority group) to send in designs to possibly be used - with the understanding we have no hope of any such prizes?

    I can see people wanting to enter and have their designs chosen, regardless of any reward. To see an Iconic with your tattoo would be a good feeling. I mean, c'mon guys. I don't care for the PC, mine is fine. Just want to contribute to the game (and possibly mock people for using my tattoo!).

  14. #34
    The Hatchery samthedagger's Avatar
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    I won't be entering because my artistic skills are terrible. But this is an awesome move for Turbine to get the community involved and the prizes aren't too shabby either. Kudos Turbine!

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perceval View Post
    BAH... Turbine is not discriminating, your country's laws all suck. Looking at the rig, there is a definite possibility that the FTC would prohibit its shipment internationally even if you won.

    What I really want to know is are you going to be selling that Skin ... I WANT... I WANT... I WANT

    The System is cool, but looking at the equipment in it, it is worth about $ 2100.00, and honestly I build better for my spare computers.... but that skin...I WANT ... I WANT... I WANT..

    To Paraphrase the Blues Brothers.... Your Skin...Your Skin.... How Much for Your Skin.
    Ehm, Correct me if you can prove I am wrong here, but living in an EU country, I highly suspect the reason why its more easy in the US is not because our laws suck, but more the opposite - they give consumers far more rights that cannot be waived, even if we agree with that on contest entry - and that is why its far easier to limit the contest to US only.

  16. #36
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Completely agree. The issue is certainly one of different rules but I wouldn't say it's because "Our 'merican rules win and the rest of the world sucks" (a fairly typical and myopic view in the US) but more of a "we know what our rules are and what we can get away with down here" type of situation.

    The reality is that many American laws governing contests are fairly loose and designed to protect the company far more than the consumer.

    As for the FTC restricting shipping that is frankly a silly statement. First it's your Department of Commerce that is most likely to be the ones restricting trade / sale to other countries and second all they would need to do is include the standard disclaimer that it's "void where prohibited" and tag to the end of it "by state, federal or international statue"

    It's sad to me they couldn't include at least countries that have known similar rules. At a minimum it would have been nice to open it up to citizens from nations with free trade agreements with the US. That would have likely covered a majority of the player base.

    Ahh well my designs shall remain my own! Mwahahahaha


  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascoe View Post
    Ehm, Correct me if you can prove I am wrong here, but living in an EU country, I highly suspect the reason why its more easy in the US is not because our laws suck, but more the opposite - they give consumers far more rights that cannot be waived, even if we agree with that on contest entry - and that is why its far easier to limit the contest to US only.
    Partly this. Mostly this, even.

    This has nothing - nothing - to do with contest laws or intellectual property. It's the nature of the prize that's the problem; they're shipping a physical piece of hardware, which is fraught with difficulty. In some countries they're unable to limit their liability for loss or damage occasioned by sending something that, for instance, explodes and burns your house down. In some countries it's illegal to import certain computer hardware without a licence. In some countries, the recipient of a "gift" above a certain value incurs import taxes, and so on. If you think excluding international participation is a bad move, imagine the PR consequences of somebody getting an unexpected $1,000 customs duty bill.

    So yes, it's Turbine's "fault", inasmuch as they've chosen a prize which means they pretty much have to limit the eligiblity to US citizens only. If the prize was 50,000 Turbine points or a lifetime's supply of cosmetic armor or somesuch, there'd be no problem.

  18. #38
    Community Member PpalP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    No, he was stating that in order for Turbine to make the contest international, there would have to be a global set of laws and there isn't. Turbine is not going to invest in the amount of lawyer time it would take to make it global like google already has. Yes he wasn't clear, but that was the intention in typical forum short tongue speak.

    Being owned by WB does NOT make it WB (a faliacy I keep seeing repeated on these forums.) As a brand (which is what is as well) Turbine makes it or dies on their own. So long as they are profitable WB will probably keep them. Once they become to much of a drag, like any parent company they will either be sold off or ended.
    Sorry again but I think you didn't read the original post, I put it just below for you to read:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Then get International laws changed so you can participate.

    Until then even Turbine has to follow them.

    And by the way, Turbine is NOT discriminating - they are just following the laws put down. Go take your discrimination BS to the people that wrote such laws, not the ones that have to follow them.
    I wasn't arguing about Turbine efforts, I just said that there's no need to change any laws to make an international competence, nothing more.

  19. #39
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    It is interesting how companies in other countries seem to find ways to purchase the rights to artwork from developers in other countries

    I know, I know - you can't.

    Just saying - others can, and do. It's kind sad - so many of us wanted a way to help to develop our favorite game. And your legal department has decided that no no, can't do that. Americans only; they must think there is no legal way to purchase intellectual property from any one other than americans.
    They don't know they can buy it, because mostly they can just steal it without any consequences.

  20. #40
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    Doesn't yours standard terms of service already provide for this under the clause on user content?

    User Content. "User Content" means any communications, images, sounds, and all the material and information that you or anyone using the Account contributes through the Game or any Turbine-affiliated website (e.g., Turbine.com, DDO.com, LOTRO.com), including without limitation feedback about the Game. You hereby grant Turbine a perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, paid-up, non-exclusive, license, including the right to sublicense to third parties, and right to reproduce, fix, adapt, modify, translate, reformat, create derivative works from, manufacture, introduce into circulation, publish, distribute, sell, license, sublicense, transfer, rent, lease, transmit, publicly display, publicly perform, or provide access to electronically, broadcast, communicate to the public by telecommunication, display, perform, enter into computer memory, and use and practice such User Content as well as all modified and derivative works thereof. You hereby represent and warrant that you have, and have the documentation to establish, all necessary rights to grant the license referenced in the preceding sentence. To the extent permitted by applicable laws, you hereby waive any moral rights you may have in any User Content.
    This would seem to apply worldwide, so wouldn't restrict the competition only to US citizens?

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