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  1. #41
    Community Member LeadHeros's Avatar
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    Default Why isn't Turbine providing this???

    Nice and thanks very much.

    Want to confirm because I haven't seen it on the document but the character gets 4 AP per level to work with?

    Looking at Rogue Execute [2 AP] (ML 4, 20 AP) means it costs 2 AP, can be taken at level 4 and have to have spent 20 AP. Correct? If you get 4 AP per level, at level 4 you could only have spent 16; 20 at level 5 so this really isn't available to level 6.

    I imagine the week this rolls out there will be HUGE crowds around the trainers
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  2. #42
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    Default Enhancement reference

    Thanks! That must have been a huge undertaking...+1

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeadHeros View Post
    Nice and thanks very much.

    Want to confirm because I haven't seen it on the document but the character gets 4 AP per level to work with?

    Looking at Rogue Execute [2 AP] (ML 4, 20 AP) means it costs 2 AP, can be taken at level 4 and have to have spent 20 AP. Correct? If you get 4 AP per level, at level 4 you could only have spent 16; 20 at level 5 so this really isn't available to level 6.

    I imagine the week this rolls out there will be HUGE crowds around the trainers
    Its listed that way for multiclassing, for that ability you need atleast 4 levels of rogue to get that, and you need to have spent 20AP in that tree alone. so while it isnt possible to get it AT lvl 4, the lower requirement helps with mutliclass builds

  4. #44
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    Waiting to find out if it's a breach of the NDA if I update the enhancement document with the latest from the closed beta.

    Would like to think that so long as I stick to the enhancements and with the big disclaimer these are, as always, subject to change, that I can get the nod to try and keep things up-to-date as far as the enhancement pass is concerned. No interest in any other spoilers for quests But I do think that some of the changes that we will see in the enhancements are bigger than the new content we're getting with the expansion.

  5. #45
    Community Member mezzorco's Avatar
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    EDIT
    Anyway, I don't think they would allow any information to be discolsed.
    Last edited by mezzorco; 07-13-2013 at 04:39 AM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Waiting to find out if it's a breach of the NDA if I update the enhancement document with the latest from the closed beta.

    Would like to think that so long as I stick to the enhancements and with the big disclaimer these are, as always, subject to change, that I can get the nod to try and keep things up-to-date as far as the enhancement pass is concerned. No interest in any other spoilers for quests But I do think that some of the changes that we will see in the enhancements are bigger than the new content we're getting with the expansion.
    I guess that to post things based on the beta, you would have to post it on the lamannia forums Deathlock, after all everyone who looks/reads/posts there has to confirm they agree with the confidentiality of a beta test.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascoe View Post
    I guess that to post things based on the beta, you would have to post it on the lamannia forums Deathlock, after all everyone who looks/reads/posts there has to confirm they agree with the confidentiality of a beta test.
    Yip, spoke to Cordovan on Friday and just means not uploading the latest corrections and the new Shadar-kai, Purple Dragon Knight and Morninglord trees.

    Might get permission next week and I'll make it public at the earliest.

  8. #48
    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeadHeros View Post
    Nice and thanks very much.

    Want to confirm because I haven't seen it on the document but the character gets 4 AP per level to work with?

    Looking at Rogue Execute [2 AP] (ML 4, 20 AP) means it costs 2 AP, can be taken at level 4 and have to have spent 20 AP. Correct? If you get 4 AP per level, at level 4 you could only have spent 16; 20 at level 5 so this really isn't available to level 6.

    I imagine the week this rolls out there will be HUGE crowds around the trainers
    Yeah, I noticed that too, and it doesn't make much sense.

    Was looking at some of the Elven racial enhamncements, and quite a few of them share this....issue. For example, the Enhancement "Grace" (allows use of Dex for damage mod) says it's ML 1, but the AP prereq is 15.

    Uh...what?

    How's it ML 1 when I only get 4 AP per level, and I have to spend 15 AP before I even qualify for it, and then save 2 AP to get it, for a total of 17 AP, which I wont have till I'm into level 5?

    ....wow. and the new enhancement system was designed to be easier to understand, they say?
    All that is wrong with DDO, life, taxes, poltics, religion, music, fast food, education, the criminal justice system, the weather, society, the universe, and previously-discontinued-but-now-on-their-way-back snack cakes, is all the fault of Wizards of the Coast. I know this because Fred told me so, and Mind Flayers are smart.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    Yeah, I noticed that too, and it doesn't make much sense.

    Was looking at some of the Elven racial enhamncements, and quite a few of them share this....issue. For example, the Enhancement "Grace" (allows use of Dex for damage mod) says it's ML 1, but the AP prereq is 15.

    Uh...what?

    How's it ML 1 when I only get 4 AP per level, and I have to spend 15 AP before I even qualify for it, and then save 2 AP to get it, for a total of 17 AP, which I wont have till I'm into level 5?

    ....wow. and the new enhancement system was designed to be easier to understand, they say?
    If you think about it, if something is ML 1 then it means that you can take it at any level once you meet the AP and any other requirements, that's really all this is saying. The AP values have changed a few times since the alpha version, and it's easier to just change an AP requirement than having to reset the ML requirement at the same time. So think on it that with racial enhancements you can take them at any point in time if you have the AP to spend and you've spent enough in your tree. Although for me, racial enhancements should definitely be based on total AP spent instead of points in the tree. No, let me correct that, I think every tree should be based on total AP spent and not just points in an individual tree, but with racial enhancements there is less of an argument that you have "specialised" in your race ... congratulations you have become more of an elf than you were previously? You've studied how to gaze enigmatically into the distance and adopt an air of aloofness? Em ... okay ....

    This allows future flexibility to add a 5th AP when you take a level, so instead of just working through that last dot on your XP bar to get level, maybe one day you would get an extra AP at the same time? Or maybe they'll introduce an Action Tome to the store where you can buy extra action points?

    The thing you need to remember is that it is points spent in the tree, so a Tier 4 Class enhancement has a 20 AP prereq which means that you won't be able to take that until character level 6 with at least 4 levels in that tree's class.

    There are other "funnies" in there, like Mad Munitions in the Frenzied Berserker tree is ML 3 with a 10 AP prereq .... but also has the Greater Two Handed Fighting feat as a prereq ... and that feat is ML 11

    So maybe we need to think on some of these enhancements having an Absolute Minimum Level (AML)?

    What I do think would help is if they tightened up the red boxing within the trees. At the moment, only the first enhancement in a chain will be red boxed if you don't meet the pre-requisites, but then it looks as if the other enhancements in that chain could be available. I've bug reported it but don't know if it's considered a bug or just non-intuititve. I would expect every enhancement in a tree to be red boxed until I take that first core enhancement to unlock it and then only the first Tier would be available, everything else remains red boxed until all of the prereq's are met.

    In Turbine's defence though, it is less confusing when you are spending AP as you level up normally - if you're just going to the dojo and fast levelling to 20 and then trying to work out what to do with 80 AP the whole thing can seem very confusing, but if you're spending AP as you earn them then it is easier to follow.

    It's maybe worth noting that these things are all still in beta and that a further reduction in AP cost either before the go-live or after isn't impossible. I would definitely like to see the red boxing fixed and racial enhancements moved to total AP spend before it goes live.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Although for me, racial enhancements should definitely be based on total AP spent instead of points in the tree. No, let me correct that, I think every tree should be based on total AP spent and not just points in an individual tree, but with racial enhancements there is less of an argument that you have "specialised" in your race ...
    This. The 'in-tree' spending requirements will hit multiclasses especially hard. As well, a lot of things that are currently available at lvls 6/12/18 will be very hard or impossible to get at those levels in future if you spend even a single point in, say, your racial tree, or another tree within your class to get an important enhancement (say, toughness for heal-focused FVS).

    But that's a bit off-topic from the original post. Thanks for doing this--very neat, and a lot of work. Already bookmarked!
    One constructive suggestion I'd make is to label across the top which column of boxes are core abilities, and then label the tiers. For someone completely new to this, it's unclear what's tier 5 (i.e., the tier you can only take from 1 class tree). A brief explanation of this in the legend at the beginning would be helpful too.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluenoser View Post
    This. The 'in-tree' spending requirements will hit multiclasses especially hard. As well, a lot of things that are currently available at lvls 6/12/18 will be very hard or impossible to get at those levels in future if you spend even a single point in, say, your racial tree, or another tree within your class to get an important enhancement (say, toughness for heal-focused FVS).

    But that's a bit off-topic from the original post. Thanks for doing this--very neat, and a lot of work. Already bookmarked!
    One constructive suggestion I'd make is to label across the top which column of boxes are core abilities, and then label the tiers. For someone completely new to this, it's unclear what's tier 5 (i.e., the tier you can only take from 1 class tree). A brief explanation of this in the legend at the beginning would be helpful too.
    Thanks for the suggestion.

    Might be able to add it to the legend, but no room in some of the trees to add in column or row headings I'm afraid. The first row in every tree is the Core Enhancements, then after that it's the rest of the tree arranged as best they can fit - with anything that won't fit shown surrounded by a dotted box at the far right.

  12. #52
    Community Member GlassJaw's Avatar
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    Great doc!

    Have you gotten the green light to update it with info from Beta yet?

  13. #53
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    thanks for the doc!

    sorry to derail but i have a question about minimum levels. Spellsong vigor of Bard is min lvl 5 and requires 30 AP. So if this is 30 AP spent on the tree then it will still be spendable with just five levels, correct? Since almost everything else is min lvl 5. The only problem would be that that's almost half of your total points. But, you could still pull it off.

    So if this is correct, then what im thinking is you can get alot of big enhancements with just 5 levels. Just alot of sacrifice, but having 5 levels in a certain class would be 'enough' in a lot of cases, In this case, for spellsong Vigor

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by supott View Post
    thanks for the doc!

    sorry to derail but i have a question about minimum levels. Spellsong vigor of Bard is min lvl 5 and requires 30 AP. So if this is 30 AP spent on the tree then it will still be spendable with just five levels, correct? Since almost everything else is min lvl 5. The only problem would be that that's almost half of your total points. But, you could still pull it off.

    So if this is correct, then what im thinking is you can get alot of big enhancements with just 5 levels. Just alot of sacrifice, but having 5 levels in a certain class would be 'enough' in a lot of cases, In this case, for spellsong Vigor
    Pretty much. 5 class levels, character level 12 and 30 AP spent in that tree are the current minimum requirements to take a Tier 5 ability. It does create some interesting build options.

    And to another poster, no word on beta yet. Document is updated with the new iconics and a bundle of corrections and some very nice additions, but it's still under wraps while the NDA applies. Whether we agree or disagree with it, still need to respect it I'm give the go-ahead to update it.

    Lamannia is due back up tomorrow, so will be interesting to see if there are any more adjustments or corrections.

  15. #55
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by THAC0 View Post
    Nice job! Thanks for sharing!
    Yes indeed - excellent. Just getting back to life at home ... this kind of stuff is super handy.
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  16. #56
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Thanks for this Deadlock it's made it possible for people who have been cut off of the Lama Forums and Server to actual talk about the enhancement system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  17. #57
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    Default Bump -- Deadlock/Cord Is the NDA lifted now? Good 2 go?

    Bump -- Deadlock/Cord Is the NDA lifted now? Good 2 go? Pitter patter let's get at her? :P! ! Cheers!
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by whereispowderedsilve View Post
    Bump -- Deadlock/Cord Is the NDA lifted now? Good 2 go? Pitter patter let's get at her? :P! ! Cheers!
    I expected it to be dropped last Friday or maybe Monday to give two clear weeks of open beta for everyone to have a chance to transfer their characters over to Lamannia to see for themselves what they consider to be positive and negative about the coming changes.

    But no such luck. Lamannia's down at the moment for the "final" build before the go-live, so I'm guessing it'll be up on Friday.

    I'll post the "current" version as soon as the NDA is down and then update it with any changes over the weekend.

  19. #59
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    Lama forums are now public and the warning at the top is gone. I'm assuming the NDA is over.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
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  20. #60
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    Default Cordovan/Tolero/ProducerRowan/ProducerGlin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maelodic View Post
    Lama forums are now public and the warning at the top is gone. I'm assuming the NDA is over.
    We shouldn't make assumptions! :P! !

    Again paging anyone from the powers that be, that could please give Deadlock the go ahead! Or PM him at least! Please & thanks in advance! :P! !

    Cheers! It would be super greatly appreciated!
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