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  1. #1
    Community Member tman's Avatar
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    Default Time to Blend Heroic with EPIC

    Devs,

    Back when you first introduced EPIC content, there was a clear reason to let only level 20 characters run it. However, today, as we are getting ready to introduce level 28 content, the line between level 19 and level 20 needs to be addressed.

    Please consider eliminating the forced discrimination against Heroic content and EPIC content. If my level 18 character wants to run EPIC content with my friends who are level 20, please allow it. Enforce the normal rules about power leveling and allow the difficulty of the quest dictate the makeup of the characters running it. I have found my level 19 getting stuck as all my friends whom I have diligently been running with graduate to EPIC content at level 20.

    Please put this suggestion on your list for consideration.

    Thanks,
    David Thomas aka Tomoman (G-Land)

  2. #2
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tman View Post
    Please consider eliminating the forced discrimination against Heroic content and EPIC content. If my level 18 character wants to run EPIC content with my friends who are level 20, please allow it.
    /Signed x1000

    I wholeheartedly approve of this suggestion.
    <-Curelite Bottling Company->

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  3. #3
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tman View Post
    Devs,

    Please consider eliminating the forced discrimination against Heroic content and EPIC content. If my level 18 character wants to run EPIC content with my friends who are level 20, please allow it. Enforce the normal rules about power leveling and allow the difficulty of the quest dictate the makeup of the characters running it.
    they allow it, just check the description of the epic tomes of learning, it states clearly than a non epic player can step in an epic quest(but won't receive the bonus as being epic player)
    psykopeta - hoarding pl, for the sake of hoarding, the day i become ubercompletionist will be because there isn't anything to delay it more - thelanis, where the gimps claim to be pros and noobs claim to be pros, no newbies allowed(unless they claim to be pros), we have enough drama w/o them. PS i'm not a pro, maybe if i reincarnate in RL...

  4. #4
    Community Member tman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psykopeta View Post
    they allow it, just check the description of the epic tomes of learning, it states clearly than a non epic player can step in an epic quest(but won't receive the bonus as being epic player)
    I hear you, but try to run an EPIC quest with a level 19. The game will not allow you in the quest.

    This is a simple fix to the level 18-19.999 doldrums of leveling.

  5. #5
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    This would be terrific for the 18-20 leveling gap, and get some of those old world quests run that I always skip now since I can hit 25 without them. But... Epic quest xp is basically broken if you apply it to a heroic character. Make this change and you could get 18-20 in less than two hours. To even make it viable you'd have to AT LEAST half the xp on a sub 20 player. Maybe just auto-apply a power-level penalty?

  6. #6
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantor View Post
    Epic quest xp is basically broken if you apply it to a heroic character.
    On a TR? I disagree.
    <-Curelite Bottling Company->

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  7. #7
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Amrath and Cannith Manufactory already barely get run any more!

    If Lvl 18s and 19s can suddenly get into Epics then the Devs may as well just remove those quests from the game entirely!

    PLUS: Reaver's Refuge of course - As This won't be needed any more either!


    The issue with Epics and Heroics for me is completely the opposite of what you're asking for...

    As soon as I hit 20 {and more and more of my characters are closing in on that mark now + TR1s getting back up too} It suddenly becomes pointless running any more Heroic quests - I still don't have a SINGLE Character ToD Flagged and aren't likely to any time soon as no-one'll run G-Point!

    Before MotU I had 4 Lvl 20 Characters - My Cleric {Jelina} had been there the longest and had run multiple Shrouds {around 25 when MotU came out I believe}.
    None of my other Lvl 20s had run more than 5 Shrouds!
    - Getting ZERO XP when you're already capped isn't an issue BUT getting ZERO XP when there's 5 MORE Levels to go certainly IS!
    - Epic Destinies make this 10 times worse!

    Since MotU came out I've got Jelina {and my Monk - Lieuk} up to 25 - I TRd Jelina {she's now Lvl 11 on her second life} and left Lieuk at 25.
    I've TRd 3 other Characters since MotU - ALL 3 were TRd the INSTANT they hit 20 {one is now 22 on his 2nd life, one is 16-2nd Life and the other is 11-2nd life}.

    The remaining character I had already capped is my Rogue/Arti - Sylveria - Who has gained exactly ONE level since MotU came out - Much of this being because a friend who'd just come back to the game after a long absence had a very similar character who he needed help levelling {so I ran other characters instead}.

    And I've brought other characters up to 20+ since too {incl my crafter - a 4th INSTANT TR! - Now back at Lvl 16-2nd Life}.



    The problem as I see it is with the All or Nothing Epic Destinies!
    You hit 20 you'd better get straight over to that FateSinger and get your Destiny!
    Now you can forget running Heroics - Epics or nothing baby!

    ALL Lvl 18 and 19 Quests + Dreaming Dark and Lvl 17 Raids SERIOUSLY NEED to be Modified Heavily XP Wise!

    We don't need Lvl 18s and 19s being allowed into Epic Quests - We need Lvl 20/21/22s to actually have a reason to run Lvl 18-19 Quests!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    As soon as I hit 20 {and more and more of my characters are closing in on that mark now + TR1s getting back up too} It suddenly becomes pointless running any more Heroic quests
    Pointless?

    1) Fun
    2) Favor
    3) Flagging
    4) Fun

    Sure, the XP/minute is lower, but that's never been my primary concern. I admit I wouldn't mind if Amrath and Cannith quests were boosted to have XP more in line with other quests, but they're far from pointless.

  9. #9
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    /signed

    Trying to "trap" people into running the 18-19 content because they have too rather than because it is good enough content that they want to is doomed to fail. People simply hold the levels then spring past it. The fact that almost everyone does that makes it rough on any who want to do those levels.

    Allowing the cross over content would smooth out the player level ranges and show what content wasn't run because it needs help, and what isn't run because there were not players.

  10. #10
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Pointless?

    1) Fun
    2) Favor
    3) Flagging
    4) Fun

    Sure, the XP/minute is lower, but that's never been my primary concern. I admit I wouldn't mind if Amrath and Cannith quests were boosted to have XP more in line with other quests, but they're far from pointless.
    OK - I'm Lvl 20/21 and want to run Manufactory/Shavarath for BB and Flag.

    You're Lvl 25 and MIGHT join for the Favour {if you haven't already done Elite that is}, the Flagging {Ditto} and FUN - Are you saying that you'd happily run Elite Amrath with 5 Newbies/First Lifers?



    Again - I'm Lvl 20/21 - Getting a group {even if I open it to 25s - seperate issue} is hard for these two zones - Soloing is out of the question!

    Flagging for ToD/LoB/MA isn't easy in the first place.
    The Super Low XP for flagging quests in Cannith Manufactory makes this even worse.
    Then we get Lvl 25s and suddenly no-one's running Amrath at level either.


    My worry is that ToD {let's forget LoB/MA for the moment} is going to become another Abbot!
    Flag at Lvl or NEVER Flag cos no-one'll join you.
    With Orchard the issue is the opposite - The XP is very good indeed and TRs run it into the ground at level! - I prefer Once and Done gameplay {though I do have to get Sigils of course} so find it hard to get a group {too many times I've had to drop after the group's decided to go straight back in on Hard - A couple of days ago; LFM said Mentau & Ghosts Elite BB and Group went straight back in to Fleshmakers on Hard!


    I've finally got characters flagged for Abbot - ToD is next on my list BUT Amrath barely gets run these days {I do see the Raid up in Cannithtrade often BUT where's the Flagging Groups?


    Then we get to the Lvl 20 Cutoff and Epic Destinies:
    I think I missed out the BIG issue in my last post on this subject...
    EVERY OTHER LEVEL IN THE GAME YOU CAN STAY AT THE PREVIOUS LEVEL - NO NEED TO LEVEL UP!
    Lvl 17-19, 18-20, You CAN'T Stay at Lvl 19 till 21!
    I hit Lvl 19 with less than 5k to go - run over to Vale, Amrath and grab said XP and IMMEDIATELY take 20!

    Even on 2nd Life - I don't need to TOUCH Lvl 17+ Quests to Hit 20!
    As soon as I hit 20 I've gotta get over to Eveningstar and Farm Tokens for Gear {P.S. I'm trying desperately NOT to do this!}.
    No-one is running Eberron Epics and Lvl 17-20 quests {Except IQ/DD} anymore!

    I'm not capable of Soloing {hireling or no} Amrath Flags or Reaver's Refuge on Elite!
    Manufactory is a bit easier yes.

    So I'm stuck!


    The issue is with the Lvl 20 Cutoff Point {Epic Destiny XP cannot be earned at Lvl 19 so MUST take 20 Instantly!}.
    Lvl 17-19 Quests then get left behind by necessity - Yes Favour is a reason to run them but that can wait till I'm capped, FLAGGING is a different story!
    FUN?
    I have Fun playing this game BUT my fun comes from Exploring, Running all quests, Slayers etc. on different characters - It does NOT come from repeating the same quest over and over again!
    I run Shadow Crypt and VoN III Once and Done
    I run Wiz King because I have to - No way am I running it Twice per life {never mind 10 times}.
    Obviously I have to run Orchard quests more than once - Sigils aren't that common in the Slayer BUT it's done because it HAS TO BE not because I want to.


    Then I'm trying to get a group together for G-Point, Sins etc. {or I've joined a group of 1 or 2} and NO-ONE Knows the quests {G-Point the big issue here - and no Wiki's not brilliant on this quest}.
    It's open to 25s so we can forget about the XP - We just want it done - TOO FEW People KNOW these quests well enough to Guide though and Groups simply don't FILL!
    I've run G-Point 4 or 5 times now and I still have only a vague idea of what to do! - It will take a few more runs before I get it off pat!


    Let's take this into the Future:

    I'm Lvl 25 and Still haven't completed G-Point
    You're Lvl 20 {Having TRd again} and put up an Elite BB/XP Group - You don't have a TR Group this time round so you're actually looking to Pug {But I can't join!}

    P.S. I know Lvl 20s routinely ran Amrath Flags {and ToD} before MotU BUT:
    The consensus seemed to be that Elite Amrath was harder than most EPICS!
    IT WAS END-GAME!
    A Fresh Lvl 20 with NO Epic Gear was lucky to get into that raid!

    Someone like myself who was barely Shroud flagged {one character had got her 20th Shroud done} and was concentrating on IQ never got the chance to Learn Amrath with a good group!
    So I'm in the same boat as fresh 20s even on 2nd Life toons {2 now at Lvl 17+} - Waiting for a Guide!

    Why wait for a Guide for a pack no-one runs when I can run other things?

    Allow Epic Destiny XP to be Earned as soon as the Heroic Cap is hit {whether or NOT the player takes 20} and Lvl 17-19 Quests will gain a new lease of life!
    NO NEED BTW to allow people to level/use their destinies - Just allow them to accrue the XP!

    OR

    Severely upgrade the XP for Reaver's Refuge, Cannith Manufactory and Amrath so Epic Players have a reason to run them.

    OR

    Do what you did with Cabal for One and Change the Base Level of said Packs to 19 {Reaver's}, 21 {Manufactory} and 22 {Amrath}!

    This last might hurt Legends BUT you are considering fixing Legend XP Requirements already anyway!

  11. #11
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    You said a lot, so I might have missed your point on some of this, but here's a few responses.

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    You're Lvl 25 and MIGHT join for the Favour {if you haven't already done Elite that is}, the Flagging {Ditto} and FUN - Are you saying that you'd happily run Elite Amrath with 5 Newbies/First Lifers?
    Sure, why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    My worry is that ToD {let's forget LoB/MA for the moment} is going to become another Abbot!
    You mean a raid where the loot is obsolete, but people still run it on a semi-regular basis (but not religiously every 3 days) because it's fun? That already happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    I'm not capable of Soloing {hireling or no} Amrath Flags or Reaver's Refuge on Elite!
    If you want to flag, but are not well-geared enough to solo Elite, and can't find a group, why can't you solo it on Hard? Or Normal or Casual, if need be?

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    FUN?
    I have Fun playing this game BUT my fun comes from Exploring, Running all quests, Slayers etc. on different characters - It does NOT come from repeating the same quest over and over again!
    Perfect! So instead of grinding the fastest XP/minute, you can go explore these flagging quests. What was the problem again?

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Severely upgrade the XP for Reaver's Refuge, Cannith Manufactory and Amrath so Epic Players have a reason to run them.
    Upgrade XP for House C and Amrath severely, for sure.

    But Reaver's Refuge is already good XP. Multi-TRs routinely farm the heck out of those quests.

  12. #12
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    You said a lot, so I might have missed your point on some of this, but here's a few responses.

    Sure, why not?
    Glad to hear it.
    Hope you practice what you preach for the 1st lifers on your server.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    You mean a raid where the loot is obsolete, but people still run it on a semi-regular basis (but not religiously every 3 days) because it's fun? That already happened.
    Are you talking about Abbot here or ToD - Maybe Both?

    If Abbot - Gets run a lot on Cannith - LFM usually fills up from Cannithtrade {and poss other channels} rather than from LFM Panel.

    If ToD - Yes I mentioned that the Raid itself still gets run - It's the Flagging that's the issue!

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    If you want to flag, but are not well-geared enough to solo Elite, and can't find a group, why can't you solo it on Hard? Or Normal or Casual, if need be?
    Puzzle quests are just as hard on Casual as on Elite - Maybe I could take the time to run Casual BUT KNOWING THAT I'VE STILL GOTTA RUN ELITE FOR THE MANDATORY YUGO FAVOUR kills this option!

    I've already mentioned that I'm not into repeating quests - Running G-Point TWICE in one life on one character is my idea of Hell!

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Perfect! So instead of grinding the fastest XP/minute, you can go explore these flagging quests. What was the problem again?
    The problem is that I'm talking about quests that require specific knowledge - Puzzle knowledge - and the wiki is very little help.

    G-Point pretty much requires a minimum of TWO Players does it not?

    I can't be Upstairs and Downstairs at the same time!

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Upgrade XP for House C and Amrath severely, for sure.

    But Reaver's Refuge is already good XP. Multi-TRs routinely farm the heck out of those quests.
    As I've pointed out...I can cap a 2nd Life Character {and have done so} without touching Lvl 17+ quests!
    I hit 20 round about the time I finish Vale Flagging {the first Shroud} and Beyond the Rift!

    OH AND THIS IS WITHOUT MULTIPLE REPETITIONS - THIS IS ELITE ONCE AND DONE {Except Orchard of course - Gotta get that Sigil Frame filled Aaaaargh}

    For Legends - Reaver's may still come in handy...BUT I see a lot more people/Groups on LFM in IQ/DD than in Reaver's Refuge!
    AND
    The Devs have stated that they're looking at reducing the XP Requirements for Legends on top of this!

    With a reduction of the XP Requirement for Legends I feel that RR definitely needs upgrading so as to remain viable {would also help if the Devs used the opportunity to Upgrade Dragontouched Armour!}.

  13. #13
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    a character is considered epic after 20 levels. that is when you gain epic abilities and you can go on epic adventures. you cant do that as a level 18 because you are still trying to prove to be a hero.

    given the increased difficulty between heroic and epic, I wouldn't like the idea of a pre-epic character in my groups running epic content. I will say though, when I leveled on my barb from 20-25, I ran all EH quests solo with hire all the way up to High Road. it felt like I was running HE content and it was my first time through most of them, but I also was wearing epic gear and attaining epic power through EDs. nevertheless, it would be quite the challenge for a group and the heroic player to run epic quests on EH or higher.

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