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  1. #121
    Community Member DogMania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    /sigh While I can understand all of this... My first post in this thread, in fact the first "negative" post in this thread which the person you quoted was referring to didn't bring any of this into the thread.

    I stated how I thought paying to not play the game was absurd, yes, but this has nothing to do with cheating, P2W, or any of that. It's just something I simply do not understand. To me it's the equivalent of paying 60$ for a really good RPG game, and skipping straight to the end boss. I think that is strange is all.

    The rest of my post was to point out what most of the people in this thread have been trying to point out. You got what you payed for, and it does what it stated it would. You have no case, and no basis for being upset except you didn't get your cake and eat it too.

    IE. I disagreed with the very premiss of this "issue" as you call it, and you told me to leave your thread because of this.
    I see from your signature that you have a 2nd life toon and intend doing 25 lives, well when u get to about life 10 on that toon and life 2 on all your others you may change your mind

  2. #122
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    Swindling is actually a crime, and this was not.

    Caveat Emptor is a long held principle and is for nearly all commercial transactions in the U.S, the law of the land since the 1800s. Turbine doesn't have to defend any actions in this case. If you doubt this, go find a lawyer who would take this claim without laughing at you.

    Turbine can simply choose to ignore the minority of new product consumers who had these imagined expectations beyond the stated outcome. Those consumers can try to prove in the court of public opinion, because that's the only court available to them, that Turbine acted in bad faith and took some measure of unfair advantage of their foolishness, which while being neither fraud nor deceit sometimes is enough of a PR headache for a company to relent. That said, generally speaking, public opinion in the U.S. tends to fall more closely to the belief that "a fool and his money are soon parted" for a reason, than the belief that all transactions are required to be fair to all parties. Capitalism is inherently about taking advantage, fwiw...
    Yes, they can still develope long term expectations based on a similar item, sell you a new item which does not adhere to those long term undescribed expectations, and still be legal eagle the entire time doing so. It doesnt make it ethically right however. Public opinion is the thing that matters most in this equation actually, because that public funds their company, by purchasing the very products we are speaking of.

    Its a good thing then, that they also removed the burden of having to decide if no longer paying into the system was the right thing to do. You see, one can now play all content in this game free of charge, and those smart users who have seen the writing on the wall for years now let their points pile up to the point where they could play the game for as long as the lights are on, and never have to pay another dime. No longer is it a decision of not being able to log in and run with friends if players vote with their wallet.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    My sympathy is reserved for those that deserve it.

    They DID tell customers. You may not like it that they did or ignore that they did, but they did.

    QmX posted about the new boxes on 7/3 @ 10.45 am.

    Cordovan confirmed the communities questions about them on 7/3 @ 1.45 pm.

    Sorry that your need for instant gratification was not satisfied in that three hour window but we were told.


    Now have yourself a wonderful morning full of happy thoughts, sunshine and rainbows.
    I don't think you know who deserves what, if you did you wouldn't keep opening your mouth.

    They told us what exactly? That they didn't stack w xp bonus? Because that they didnt. They didnt say a single word on that.

    Sorry youre confused and in the wrong thread again.

    Now have yourself a nice life full of rainbow skittles raining on your magical christmas land where QMX and Cordo told consumers that their new stone was not going to stack like their old stones did.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubbinns View Post
    I don't think you know who deserves what, if you did you wouldn't keep opening your mouth.

    They told us what exactly? That they didn't stack w xp bonus? Because that they didnt. They didnt say a single word on that.

    Sorry youre confused and in the wrong thread again.

    Now have yourself a nice life full of rainbow skittles raining on your magical christmas land where QMX and Cordo told consumers that their new stone was not going to stack like their old stones did.
    Cordovan did say that a few hours after the product was released, but it should have been clearly stated in the product description . They could still do that.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubbinns View Post
    I don't think you know who deserves what, if you did you wouldn't keep opening your mouth.

    They told us what exactly? That they didn't stack w xp bonus? Because that they didnt. They didnt say a single word on that.

    Sorry youre confused and in the wrong thread again.

    Now have yourself a nice life full of rainbow skittles raining on your magical christmas land where QMX and Cordo told consumers that their new stone was not going to stack like their old stones did.
    Not only this but it wouldn't matter if Cordovan and QuartermasterX DID specify on the forums that the new stone did not stack. As Turbine itself has stated, only about 5% of the player base uses the forums. How does that constitute informing the entire player base? No, information on the actual item in the DDO Store is the only way to make certain that everyone at least has the opportunity to see it.

  6. #126
    Community Member DogMania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Not only this but it wouldn't matter if Cordovan and QuartermasterX DID specify on the forums that the new stone did not stack. As Turbine itself has stated, only about 5% of the player base uses the forums. How does that constitute informing the entire player base? No, information on the actual item in the DDO Store is the only way to make certain that everyone at least has the opportunity to see it.
    Ah a sensible post, nice one for drawing this to the attention of the muppets, now where are Pixie and Dixie these days lol

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by unacceptable View Post
    Cordovan did say that a few hours after the product was released, but it should have been clearly stated in the product description . They could still do that.
    Some time Before the release would have been nice.
    Last edited by Rubbinns; 07-09-2013 at 05:01 PM.

  8. #128
    Community Member Beethoven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Now I know what the rules lawyers will say - that it does exactly what the description says, but this is not the expectation after a year of the other stone behaving completely differently.
    It's not about rules lawyering. It's about not being a hypocrite.

    It comes to what Turbine can expect from me we are sticking to the letter of the contract where it says they get 100 bucks annually for access to the game.
    I would not tolerate them interpreting it as 100 bucks or more, or interpret it to take as much money out of my account as they feel entitled too.
    I would not even tolerate it if they interpret me paying fifteen bucks a month in 2008 as permission to continue withdraw five extra bucks now because of the past precedence.
    It comes to what I get in return we don't rules lawyer and use my personal interpretation over the letter of the contract? I would not be very forgiving if they do it to me, so why should I feel entitled to doing it to them?

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    This is the entirety of the issue - right here. As for "more" up front, I am looking at the description of the Bigby's box (https://www.ddo.com/en/news/limited-...%99s-handy-box) and in-game and there is not even an obscure hint that the XP Stones don't work the same as Otto's. If I was going to buy it, how/why would I have even a remote idea?
    So? There is not even the most obscure hint in the description of the Otto's Box that it can be used to level you /beyond/ 16 to begin with.

    The description of Otto's Box advertised it to instantly level you to 16, not 16 or higher. You being able to use it to level above 18 was something you got above and beyond the advertised value of the product.

    Only because somewhat gave you a little extra does not mean you now are entitled to always get more. Sort of like only because your neighbor helped you mow your lawn once does not mean you now have a reasonable expectation for him continue take care of your backyard until the end of days.

    Simply put, Turbine does not need to justify why they stop give you extra candy as little as the guy at the ice-cream saloon does not need to explain why he stopped giving you three scoops of ice-cream when you only paid for two. The fact he gave you an extra scoop last week in no way means he has to continue do so. It also doesn't matter if he meant to gave you an extra scoop or did so by accident.

    Seriously, the thread reminds me of my son when he was two and thought getting a haircut entitles him to a free lolly and threw a tantrum if the stylist forgot give him one. I suppose the difference is me and my wife actually spend the time and effort to raise him into a functional member of society. Now, at three and a half, he already understand he is in no way entitled to get free lollies all the time, no longer needs to throw a tantrum if he does not get one after a haircut and knows to be grateful if he does get one.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    If I was going to buy it, how/why would I have even a remote idea?
    You are purchasing a box that states "instantly levels you to level 15!" You now asking how you could even have a /remote/ idea that it will only level you to 15? The fact that is says 15 and not 15 or higher should give you at least a "remote idea" that this could happen.
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  9. #129
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DogMania View Post
    I see from your signature that you have a 2nd life toon and intend doing 25 lives, well when u get to about life 10 on that toon and life 2 on all your others you may change your mind
    Yes, I would like to do 25 lives on my main. I'm not certain I will anymore with the ETR debacle going on, but regardless of ETR and it's impact on my future in this game my opinion on these stones won't change.

    For your info

    My monk is on her 3rd life
    My wizard is on her 2nd life
    My sorc is on her 2 life, soon to be on her 3rd
    My Ranger(main) is on her 2nd, and also soon to be 3rd life
    I have also leveled a 5th life toon to cap on a different account. (fight club stuff)

    The reason I want to do so many past lives is to test various builds at all stages of the game, not just end game. I don't consider endgame to be the only thing that matters, and I want to get the absolute most out of my toons from level 1 to level 25. This means actually playing those levels, not skipping half of them and saying "Meh, I'm sure I would have been fine anyways."

    I want to be sure that if I make and design a build and publish it to the forums, or hand it to my guildies it will be able to handle content through it's entire life. Like being able to get traps at every level if it's a trapper, or keeping it's AC up if that's part of the build. I don't want to tell them, "Well, I skipped mid levels so idk how it will work there."
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  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Yes, they can still develope long term expectations based on a similar item, sell you a new item which does not adhere to those long term undescribed expectations, and still be legal eagle the entire time doing so. It doesnt make it ethically right however. Public opinion is the thing that matters most in this equation actually, because that public funds their company, by purchasing the very products we are speaking of.

    Its a good thing then, that they also removed the burden of having to decide if no longer paying into the system was the right thing to do. You see, one can now play all content in this game free of charge, and those smart users who have seen the writing on the wall for years now let their points pile up to the point where they could play the game for as long as the lights are on, and never have to pay another dime. No longer is it a decision of not being able to log in and run with friends if players vote with their wallet.
    Public opinion is hardly monolithic, and in this case, I'd say public opinion is decidedly not building into some crescending wave with the OP, about to swamp Turbine's shores like a Japanese Tsunami. Claiming ethics in these scenarios really only matters to the extent you can invoke them to convince people to grab their pitchforks. Looks to me however, that most are collectively shrugging and staying home, rather than die on Mt. Bigby.

    I'd also point out that retailing history is one where popular products are often followed by lesser incarnations of similar products with higher margins, from the same company, capitalizing on the initial product's success. What's unfortunate is that most spend so much time consuming, they spend no time bothering to understand how consumption actually works.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beethoven View Post
    Extra candy and ice cream scoops.
    So It's extra on the side because I like you when you walk into my shop? Or the vending machine was bugged so they fixed it? Which one is it? How do YOU know? And pause it with that poo poo about the guy manually serving you food.

    Telling people who used hard earned money before hand that the product no longer works that way is honest. Addressing that it was a gift from staff and would remain on the Otto's remaining. Maybe would be on future limited release Otto's again. But we have a new one for those that wanted a reduced price and liked that it pairs newer player with Iconics is better for the direction of the game.

    But hey you can all say it's fine that we got:
    (After buying released product anticipated to work like the other online dispensed stone would)
    "Oh, that thing you were getting every time you pumped money into the vending machine. Heh, yeah, about that. Well it no longer works. We hope you enjoy our new one."

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    /sigh While I can understand all of this... My first post in this thread, in fact the first "negative" post in this thread which the person you quoted was referring to didn't bring any of this into the thread.

    I stated how I thought paying to not play the game was absurd, yes, but this has nothing to do with cheating, P2W, or any of that. It's just something I simply do not understand. To me it's the equivalent of paying 60$ for a really good RPG game, and skipping straight to the end boss. I think that is strange is all.

    The rest of my post was to point out what most of the people in this thread have been trying to point out. You got what you payed for, and it does what it stated it would. You have no case, and no basis for being upset except you didn't get your cake and eat it too.

    IE. I disagreed with the very premiss of this "issue" as you call it, and you told me to leave your thread because of this.

    Actually Ara, I look at it more like this. I was a hoboskid who could play for hours on end before. Now I have a job and don't have time to keep up with my guildie and Tr partner. I work set hours from 7:30am to 3:30...sometimes 4:30 sometimes 5:30 depending if there is a concrete pour the next day. The work has to be done, no questions asked before we get to go home. My guildie works 4 days on two days off, his times vary 2 morning shifts 2 evening shifts.

    We don't get to see each other to often (and being a two man guild that kinda blows), but we enjoy playing DDO together when we can. My Tr partner shares the puter with her roomie, so her hours are sporadic also. If it is his day off of work shes gets very few hours to play until he is done.

    Now, what should I do, I got a 5th life toon I would love to get completionest on (just 13 lives for now, ill worry about stacking them later) but with my work hours I can't keep up with them? Do I just say well sorry ddo, its been a fun run and cancel my VIP and delete my toons? Or when I get paid do I buy a stack of TP and get some otto's boxes lvl up to 19 farm litany with the 50% pot going then wait for them to catch up? Maybe I feel like I need another GS item, so I run Shrouds and buy bypass timers for 20 runs.

    That is just my point of view on things. When I was a hoboskid I just ground and ground, now that I am a skid with a job, I will grind on my days off, and pay to keep up with those I enjoy playing with. I am not saying you don't have work, or that you have endless hours to play DDO. I am just saying how I see it from my point of view. I am paying to play with the people I enjoy playing DDO with. Of course I could just pug my way to 20, but after the last disaster my wiz-king farm was ( byoh, solo a tower, for the love of god please know it, guess who applied 'ofc I know it and can solo a towe-ding-... don't worry ill save them-ding-, where are the towers? I don't know this map that well I just fell through a floor and -ding-) ill just give turbine money and pay to play with my friends.

  13. #133
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Soulless1 View Post
    Actually Ara, I look at it more like this. -stuff-
    Don't get me wrong, I know why people do it. I don't have a problem with them doing it. If you, or anyone else wants to stone, by all means go ahead. I'm not judging anyone here. Sure, I think it's ridiculous, but as I stated it has more to do with how I play, my mindset playing the game, and less of some sort of "OHMYGOD!!!! THIS IS P2W GARBAGE!" line of thought.

    I mean I have used a stone twice myself, once when MOTU came out, and again soon after, for much the same reasons you stated yourself. Time constraints are a pain in the ***, and even now my play times are sporadic at best. So I can understand the logic behind their use. I just personally don't like using them.

    Now, all that being said, I still stand by my point towards the OP that this is a non issue. The difference of XP granted is marginal at best when you're skipping at least 8 levels of your TR either way. I really can't understand why, or how people would be upset that the new stone WAI, or how they ever thought anything different.

    Given Turbines record, expect the worst, short of that expect it to work correctly. Never expect things to have unspecified side effects that benefit the player to last long. There is not a thread long enough on these forums to hold all of the bugs/what have you's that the players like but turbine nerfed because while useful, weren't intended.
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  14. #134
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    I see a lot of people putting so much effort into legitimizing their frustration.

    The old stones had an unintended feature. By the wording in the EULA, Turbine would have been within their rights to aim a mallet at anyone who took advantage. Of course, that would've been most of the people who invested in Otto's box, so it was a safe enough assumption that they wouldn't. But don't pretend you thought that was how it was supposed to work.

    Now they've fixed the new thing to prevent abuse, and there's moaning and wailing and crying foul?

    Please continue, I need those tears to salt my popcorn.
    Last edited by FrancisP.Fancypants; 07-11-2013 at 02:21 PM.

  15. #135
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrancisP.Fancypants View Post
    I see a lot of people putting so much effort into legitimizing their frustration.

    The old stones had an unintended feature. By the wording in the EULA, Turbine would have been within their rights to aim a mallet at anyone who took advantage. Of course, that would've been most of the people who invested in Otto's box, so it was a safe enough assumption that they wouldn't. But don't pretend you thought that was how it was supposed to work.

    Now they've fixed the new thing to prevent abuse, and there moaning and wailing and crying foul?

    Please continue, I need those tears to salt my popcorn.
    Within their rights don't mean jack when it comes to customer service. Offending a playerbase on which there's already only a tenuous hold...THAT'S just a bad plan.

    I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of people who bought these boxes bought them under the expectation that everything would continue to work as the original XP stones would, and as the XP stones released afterwards did, and as XP stones have for more than a year...having nothing indicating that the stones would not work in this fashion serves only to further drive a wedge between a portion of the playerbase and Turbine, and the apparent complete lack of care from Turbine is even worse.

    Personally, this is just another item on a increasingly lengthy list of reasons as to why I haven't logged into DDO in a while, and furthermore why it's not even installed now....luckily, the forum game is still occasionally entertaining, but more often it's this level of facepalm-worthy "attack the victim" stuff (which is what a decent portion of this is amounting to - people who hate the concept of XP stones being happy that they're giving less XP and people who think a business should do whatever it wants to its consumers).
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  16. #136
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Bonus sources of XP do not stack with the Stone of Experience provided in the Bigby's Handy Box.
    This ^^

  17. #137
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    /sigh While I can understand all of this... My first post in this thread, in fact the first "negative" post in this thread which the person you quoted was referring to didn't bring any of this into the thread.

    I stated how I thought paying to not play the game was absurd, yes, but this has nothing to do with cheating, P2W, or any of that. It's just something I simply do not understand. To me it's the equivalent of paying 60$ for a really good RPG game, and skipping straight to the end boss. I think that is strange is all.

    The rest of my post was to point out what most of the people in this thread have been trying to point out. You got what you payed for, and it does what it stated it would. You have no case, and no basis for being upset except you didn't get your cake and eat it too.

    IE. I disagreed with the very premiss of this "issue" as you call it, and you told me to leave your thread because of this.
    I advised you to post in other threads that addressed the issues you attempted to bring into mine- which addressed a different topic. You didn't bother to read the actual proposal. At least, I can surmise that by your responses up to the point I highlighted it for you. Even then you haven't had anything of value to add to the discussion.

    If you want to debate the viability of people using stones there are threads for that. I've merely asked you to use them instead of misplacing your opinions within this one. Hardly unreasonable.
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  18. #138
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DogMania View Post
    Looks like I dibbed out on that 1 as I had no idea a LR reset a TR counter
    It does, and has been a known issue for quite some time...
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  19. #139
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    Public opinion is hardly monolithic, and in this case, I'd say public opinion is decidedly not building into some crescending wave with the OP, about to swamp Turbine's shores like a Japanese Tsunami. Claiming ethics in these scenarios really only matters to the extent you can invoke them to convince people to grab their pitchforks. Looks to me however, that most are collectively shrugging and staying home, rather than die on Mt. Bigby.

    I'd also point out that retailing history is one where popular products are often followed by lesser incarnations of similar products with higher margins, from the same company, capitalizing on the initial product's success. What's unfortunate is that most spend so much time consuming, they spend no time bothering to understand how consumption actually works.
    To me, this issue isn't really complicated. Whether I agree, disagree, or turn a blind eye to the practices of others seems immaterial to the discussion. What I saw in the time I've been aware really is stones of xp being offered multiple on multiple occasions in a year's time that functioned the way they have. The nature of the function of the stones was repeatedly discussed on these forums during this time period. I believe that the sales of the stones skyrocketed even higher when there was no word from Turbine regarding the issue. Some believed they were bugged. Some believed they were working as intended. But people bought them. Some by the truckload.

    Whether the stone was bugged/exploitable/working as intended really doesn't factor in for me. What prompted me to post this thread was the change in the newest stone's function combined with the timing of the release. They were purported to be 'More Awesome' than Otto's. People who had committed funds to purchase Otto's boxes spent those funds on the 'More Awesome' box instead. Those people were anticipating Otto's Boxes being made available for the holiday sale as I understand it. They bought these instead. Some in groups of 10 on multiple accounts on the high end. And they purchased them the moment the sale was active. During the window that Hendrik references.

    There was no information given regarding a change in the function of the xp stone within Bigby's.

    While Bigby's remains an incredible leveling tool; people who purchased them within that time frame felt confident in the precedent set over a years time. They did have issues. Because the stone was changed. And because no one informed them it was changed despite reading and due diligence in finding out.

    It doesn't take away the value of the the leveling tool that is Bigby's Box. Nor Otto's Box really... It did create a situation for some players however.

    Even if my proposal is flawed to the eyes of some - it still provides a way for those who did as I described in paragraph two to receive what they intended to purchase. I felt at the time of posting the OP that this would go a long way in restoring trust which was broken for these players. I still do. However, any ideas that others come up with to address the issue are most welcome. Because that is my aim. I don't like seeing long term players leaving the game over this. And some have already done so.

    I understand that people have strong emotions over the stones being considered pay to win/cheating/not playing the game/etc.. We see in other threads how intense bickering ensues regarding these types of tools. This is not the debate I started this thread to have.

    From what I understand; an end gamer for example using these tools to set up their third or fourth completionist will spend in upwards of 8000 TP using these tools when they choose to. The revenue from these sales benefits all of us. We receive updates in content, gear, and so on. This is, in part, due to those players and their choice to purchase.

    But on a more personal note I've seen some good in game friends move on to other pastures due to this. And others threaten to follow... While the game will surely survive without them, there will surely come a point where these departures take effect.

    I don't believe for a second that making an attempt to give this particular issue some attention is wrong.
    Last edited by taurean430; 07-10-2013 at 04:21 AM. Reason: Typos!
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  20. #140
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of people who bought these boxes bought them under the expectation that everything would continue to work as the original XP stones would,
    To be honest, I never bought a stone, then or now. I frequent the forums but apparently missed the part about the stones combined with elixirs giving more xp, because until all the complaints about Bigby's arose, I knew nothing about it. So it's a fair guess that many others were unaware of it as well. I'd be willing to bet that the "vast majority" to whom you allude are basically a very vocal minority. That's not to say I don't sympathize with them (and you), but I wanted to mention that many could have been unaware of the otto stone's undocumented bonuses.


    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    but more often it's this level of facepalm-worthy "attack the victim" stuff (which is what a decent portion of this is amounting to - people who hate the concept of XP stones being happy that they're giving less XP and people who think a business should do whatever it wants to its consumers).
    What generation are you from? Victim? Really? Sorry, that's just funny. lol

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