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  1. #1
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Default Dear Tolero and Cordovan,

    Hello

    I'd like to make the attempt on behlaf of many players that I know or know of to make an appeal and suggestion. My intent in posting this thread is to offer a potential solution to the recent issues expressed both on the forums and in game amongst some of your most stalwart, consistent, and long term customers. I have been honored and humbled by continued interaction with these people in my gaming. And knowing the purchases they have shared with me in confidence combined with the overwhelming negativity expressed recently I feel I have no choice but to appeal to you both. On their behalf, and on the behalf of every player really...




    The Problem:

    The Otto's Box stone stacked with outside xp sources. The Bigby's Box stone does not stack with outside xp sources. The Bigby's Box provided no information to the consumer that it did not stack with outside xp sources. Someone essentially cast Implosion in the customer trust department following this discovery. Essentially because these purchases were made out of trust in the product backed by many moons of observation regarding the function of previous, similar products. This was due in a big way to the statement implying that Bigby's was 'More Awesome' than the Otto's Box. I am aware of many players currently who's experience followed the following progression:

    MORE AWESOME THAN THE OTTO'S BOX!?! HOW MANY CAN I AFFORD RIGHT NAO?




    TIME TO START THE AWESOMENESS! SHIP BUFF/POT/VOICE CHECK! LET'S DO THIS!




    OMGUUTFBBQ - WHAT JUST HAPPENED HERE? MY XP DOESN'T STACK?







    I'VE BEEN CHEATED!




    My Proposed Solution:

    Please consider pushing to implement the following solution. This is one I find to be mutually benifical for unsatisfied customers and Turbine. Since we now know that there are a significant number of players who purchased Bigby's expecting the stone within to behave like Otto's - Give them that. This is one way to do so:

    For a limited and small amount of time (max 3 days) Offer a gift exchange of sorts. Allow players who purchased a Bigby's Box to return it via the DDO store. Give them the credit in TP to allow them to purchase an Otto's Box. They would have to pay for the difference in TP to aquire the Otto's Box. I'm thinking that the mechanic used in the past to provide relief to those adversly affected with ship amenities would work well here. A code could be generated for them to make the exchange. Also, since the DDO store already uses a mechanic that determines what is offered to the player based on the character viewing it (their level and previous purchases) - it could be used to determine that the player attempting to use the mechanic indeed qualifies to use it (by having purchased the Bigby's Box during the initial holiday sale).

    Turbine will continue to profit from TP use. Players who were surprised by the initially unmentioned aspects of the Bigby's Box will have opportunity to receive what they were expecting. Future Bigby's and Otto's Box purchases are then done with the foreknowledge of how they function in use. This also allows both of these incredible leveling tools to co-exist. But most importantly, this will make a big difference for players who felt duped or worse by choosing to purchase the Bigby's Box. Consider the advantage you gain for the customer who will or will not make a purchase based upon the reputation of the brand. There is a definite upside for Turbine when considering future purchases of your products.

    Restoring some customer faith regarding what they are actually purchasing would go a long way guys. It's certainly one thing to not read the effing manual. It's another when the manual misstates by omission the actual function of the product. And that's the problem here as I see it. With this solution, many players will go from:

    THIS




    TO THIS





    Thank you both for the read. To my fellow players, please express your concerns and support. The more the better...
    Last edited by taurean430; 07-08-2013 at 07:42 AM. Reason: Highliting the actual Proposal
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  2. #2
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Reserved for future commentary if needed.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    My only thought is to wonder which game this bug is from


  4. #4
    Community Member darthhento's Avatar
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    I still don't see a reason why people buy these boxes? Why would someone pay NOT TO PLAY?
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    My only thought is to wonder which game this bug is from

    Not really a game, but it was created in Garry's Mod. It's probably from an Idiot Box video. You can find them on Youtube by searching "Gmod Idiot Box".

  6. #6
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zirun View Post
    Not really a game, but it was created in Garry's Mod. It's probably from an Idiot Box video. You can find them on Youtube by searching "Gmod Idiot Box".
    I see...

    My intention was merely to provide both light hearted amusement and personification to the communications I've had with others on this topic. If I am unfairly referencing or conjuring up a negative, I apologize.

    I only wish to reach a resolution which leaves both Turbine and the players affected positively.
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  7. #7
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    I see...

    My intention was merely to provide both light hearted amusement and personification to the communications I've had with others on this topic. If I am unfairly referencing or conjuring up a negative, I apologize.

    I only wish to reach a resolution which leaves both Turbine and the players affected positively.
    I simply can not understand peoples outrage over this non-issue. You bought a Bigby's box that hand an XP stone in it. One that stated quite clearly it would take a character from level 7 to level 15. And that is it. Didn't mention stacking XP bonus', didn't say it would work the same way an Otto's box would. So you bought it, used it, got exactly what you payed for, and what? You're upset it didn't include even more freebies?

    I mean hell, this thing gets you high enough level, and gives enough XP pots to go with it any competent TR junky can get back to cap in 1 day with this thing, maybe 2. Oh sure it's not the almost instant TR Otto's was, but is a few extra hours not at cap going to kill you?

    This seems to me to be one of the major things our player base has an issue with: Entitlement.
    I'm not saying how absurd it is to pay to not play the game, and I'm not some turbine fangirl, but when I read the description of a Bigby's box I read "7-15" Not "7-15+ whatever XP bonus' you happen to stack at the time of using it".

    I'm not going to tell people how to play their game, and I'm not gonna tell you not to be upset by... whatever it is you're upset about. I just don't see what all the fuss is about.
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  8. #8
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    I simply can not understand peoples outrage over this non-issue. You bought a Bigby's box that hand an XP stone in it. One that stated quite clearly it would take a character from level 7 to level 15. And that is it. Didn't mention stacking XP bonus', didn't say it would work the same way an Otto's box would. So you bought it, used it, got exactly what you payed for, and what? You're upset it didn't include even more freebies?

    I mean hell, this thing gets you high enough level, and gives enough XP pots to go with it any competent TR junky can get back to cap in 1 day with this thing, maybe 2. Oh sure it's not the almost instant TR Otto's was, but is a few extra hours not at cap going to kill you?

    This seems to me to be one of the major things our player base has an issue with: Entitlement.
    I'm not saying how absurd it is to pay to not play the game, and I'm not some turbine fangirl, but when I read the description of a Bigby's box I read "7-15" Not "7-15+ whatever XP bonus' you happen to stack at the time of using it".

    I'm not going to tell people how to play their game, and I'm not gonna tell you not to be upset by... whatever it is you're upset about. I just don't see what all the fuss is about.
    It seems clear to me that if all you have to offer to this thread is criticism and negativity, you should be posting elsewhere.

    The concerns of people who are in fact spending money on a product they have reasonable expectation functions in the same way as previous incarnations of the same product are not arbitrary ramblings of dissociative malcontents. Even entering this thread attempting to split hairs on player intent and expectation - effectively attempting to redirect the message into a debate that does not exist - gives me cause to question why you within the thread at all.

    The intent of this thread is to draw attention to an issue that has adversely and negatively affected the level of morale, trust, and participation of many players. Players who, through no fault of their own, relied on the expectation of a product to work in a way consistent with existing previous versions. No information given at time of release regarding the xp stacking being changed is interpreted as deception by omission by those I've communicated with. They, the purchasers, have many examples of the same being done with other products.

    Since you clearly do not understand this, you may be better served starting your own topic on the subject. Or continuing to provide input within the other threads that are in fact becoming arguments over player intent, p2win, cheating, and whatever else. I thank you for your input. Yet I must stress that you have not only misunderstood the purpose of this thread and it's proposed solution - you are also off topic.
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  9. #9
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    You had a reasonable expectation for something that so far I haven't seen proof that the Otto box was ever intended to work that way. Is there a dev comment somewhere specifically stating that the xp stacking bonus was 100% intended in their release? Pretty sure that would have been brought up 10,000x in every single thread if it had been.

    And then, you go buy a box offering a stone doing something just a tad bit different, assuming it would do the exact same thing for a cheaper price.

    OH MY GOD I CAN NOT PLAY THE GAME FOR A CHEAPER PRICE NOW???? GIVE ME 50!!!!

    And then you realize that the new version, which was under a different name and used a different version of the stone, doesn't give you something that it never stated it would give you and neither did the other one.

    /Not signed.

  10. #10
    Community Member Zillee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    To my fellow players, please express your concerns and support. The more the better...
    As amusing as the OP is, I'm not concerned about this 'issue'.

  11. #11
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    You had a reasonable expectation for something that so far I haven't seen proof that the Otto box was ever intended to work that way. Is there a dev comment somewhere specifically stating that the xp stacking bonus was 100% intended in their release? Pretty sure that would have been brought up 10,000x in every single thread if it had been.

    And then, you go buy a box offering a stone doing something just a tad bit different, assuming it would do the exact same thing for a cheaper price.

    OH MY GOD I CAN NOT PLAY THE GAME FOR A CHEAPER PRICE NOW???? GIVE ME 50!!!!

    And then you realize that the new version, which was under a different name and used a different version of the stone, doesn't give you something that it never stated it would give you and neither did the other one.

    /Not signed.
    I have to ask: What, exactly is your point in posting this here?

    It's crystal clear to anyone that if you have a product that functions in whatever fashion for over a year in two different incarnations that it's reasonable to expect it to continue to function as it has. This point becomes especially potent when considering that in the release notation regarding Bigby's Box there was no mention of any change regarding the mechanics and function of the stone within. So are you suggesting then that something that has functioned in one way for a long period of time being changed without notice and rolled out being okay with you?

    Very well. If that is okay with you, I've no argument. However, there are many who feel differently. This doesn't make them wrong for reading the information provided and purchasing an item on a holiday sale. This doesn't also make them bad people or worthy of random ridicule for purchasing said item. In some cases in bulk that I am aware of. In the same way they purchased Otto's Boxes, in bulk, when not on holiday sale.

    I do believe at this point it's fair to say this is why many players read release notes with updates. If things are changing within the game itself on live servers - those who read like to be made aware of what those changes are. Products offered through the DDO store are held to the same standard. They are researched, then purchased with the foreknowledge of how they are to function. If it does not function in that manner, customer service is consulted. Resolution of said issue is sought...

    People who spent a lot of rl funds on this product were, I believe, mislead by omission regarding it's function. My proposal is centered and focused on providing a way for those who did purchase - who ultimately feel misled and cheated to have a viable resolution to their issue. So they would remain comfortable continuing to purchase products in the future. So they would ultimately feel that the business side has an interest in the satisfaction of their customers.
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  12. #12
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    I don't understand why everyone is getting down on the OP. He brings up a very valid point.
    My immediate thoughts:
    * I think pay to NOT play is rather silly, and thus would probably never buy an xp stone. However, I can understand that some people prefer endgame (raids, etc.) and don't want to spend time leveling. And for some it can take a month or more to TR.

    * Otto's stone probably was NOT intended to stack with other sources of xp bonus. However, Turbine mucked it up, didn't plan/code adequately, etc. and the xp stone did stack. But, in typical Turbine fashion, they wouldn't admit to such, nor say that future version of xp stones will/might not stack.

    * Turbine "fixed" their mistake with Bigby's xp stone, making sure it did not stack with other sources of xp. However, they failed to tell any players of the changes.

    * It's irrelevant if the xp stone "does what it says" (level to 15) or not. The point is that Otto's stone said 7-15 but actually stacked. It's a reasonable assumption that if Bigby's stone says 7-15, that it should stack as well.

    * The OP isn't whining and having a fit. He's stating that Turbine has once again done something to **** off a lot of gamers, and that they should remedy the issue.

    * This move is another Turbine PR/customer satisfaction screw up. If they fixed it (or changed it), they should have announced to everyone very clearly that the xp would not stack. Why is it so hard for Turbine to communicate with us?

    * It's because of things like this that make many others hesitant to buy things from Turbine. I see this happen, and then look at the new expansion. Should I risk pre-ording it when it could really suck? Maybe I should just wait until a month after release to see what player feedback is, and then THEN order it (especially since it'll probably be 1/2 off and purchasable with TP).

    * Every time Turbine does something like this (even if it's minor) it undermines players trust in them. And in the future, players are less likely to take any risks or buy anything until others have and can confirm that it doesn't suck and it's a move to rip them off.

    * Most of the previous posts are pointless derailments to the OP. They are either missing the point, ignoring the point, or don't care either way. Speak to the points the OP brought up. If you are going to argue against what he is saying, you must bring up points that speak directly to his points. Unrelated counter arguments only make you appear to be trying to derail. It's kind of like having a discussion with someone who thinks that by speaking louder and "swearing up and down" that he can win the discussion even though he presents no actual logical arguments.

  13. #13
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    So are you suggesting then that something that has functioned in one way for a long period of time being changed without notice and rolled out being okay with you?
    If you can't find any proof that it was intended to work that way, then it's right to assume that it was never meant to. It's then reasonable to believe that it was fixed. Now, it is possible that Turbine did know of it when they were initially used, tried fixing it, rolled out the Otto's boxes with what they believed was a fix, it didn't work but were forbade from working on it because Warner Bros is a bunch of greedy idiots. This is now a different product, intended to work in the original intended way.

    I can't help you if you don't want to play the game, though.

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    I was going to refrain in supporting the new forums format but this topic did lure me out of my dank cave.

    OP has a positive and valid point. There are many of us in game (and we've all been apart of the conversations as of late) that are really disappointed by the new box. True, the Bigby Box stated leveling 7-15 and it does that. However, one of the devs stated that the Bigby's Box would be BETTER than the OTTO's box. For over a year now, since we received the FREE MOTU stone of xp and the OTTO boxes that soon followed for sale (multiple releases), the format on the stacking xp has been unchanged. Based on that alone, how can you argue that the stones were NOT WAI? As a matter of fact, many threads have been posted since then about the benefit of xp pots, ship buffs, and voice/mantle stacking benefits...to which the devs have seen/read but not specifically said anything about. This is Turbine's product. They know what they are selling.

    So here we are with Bigby's and people anticipate a splurge on Otto's boxes and we are told that what is coming will be better. Can you fault those that weren't amused by a product that cost essentially more (due to less TP used but less benefit/xp gained) and was unattractive?

    Also, to those who keep bringing up the old and tired line about paying to win, please just stop. People will do what they enjoy. If whatever in the game offers entertainment value (within reason), whether it's staring at the AH all day or running around the guild vendors in figure eight patterns, it's their fun. I, personally enjoy TR'ing quickly for more time spent at epics and not in heroics. I will pay for that convenience. I'm still in the game because I have found this has brought me enjoyment. The option has been given to all of us to reject or accept but nevertheless, these are options that Turbine offers.

    I support you OP and kudos for trying to add a solution and positive spin on the topic. I think turbine should give this thread (minus trolls) a good read and come up with a compromise.

    For those who don't care, fine, you need not worry or post. This thread seems to speak for people who do care. I'm in that group and I would be happy to see Turbine be responsive to this.

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    [QUOTE=Nightmanis;5036614]If you can't find any proof that it was intended to work that way, then it's right to assume that it was never meant to. It's then reasonable to believe that it was fixed.

    ...What is this "fixed". A dev just recently stated that we should expect to see both Ottos and Bigby's together in the future.

  16. #16
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    The intent of this thread is to draw attention to an issue that has adversely and negatively affected the level of morale, trust, and participation of many players. Players who, through no fault of their own, relied on the expectation of a product to work in a way consistent with existing previous versions. No information given at time of release regarding the xp stacking being changed is interpreted as deception by omission by those I've communicated with. They, the purchasers, have many examples of the same being done with other products.
    .
    Wrong. It is almost entirely the players fault. The player assumed that this stone would work the way the old one did.( when dealing with turbine this is kind of silly) The Otto's box XP stone that they based these assumptions on I might add, the devs never made clear if the XP stacking was a bug, or WAI. It is the equivalent of making a build based on something that may, or may not be a bug, and being upset when you get to cap and you find out that it was in fact a bug.

    Speaking as someone who bought the Otto's box and used it once, and also used the XP stone that came out around MOTU, I looked at this item and made no assumptions about how it would work except that it would work exactly as the description stated. I don't buy things because they have unstated properties. I buy them for exactly what they say the do, and anything else is a bonus.

    The fact here is people payed for an XP stone that would take them from level 7 to level 15, and that is exactly what they got. However, they're now upset it didn't also give them some extra unstated XP. I have no sympathy for this, and I'm tired of hearing about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catteras View Post
    * Most of the previous posts are pointless derailments to the OP. They are either missing the point, ignoring the point, or don't care either way. Speak to the points the OP brought up. If you are going to argue against what he is saying, you must bring up points that speak directly to his points. Unrelated counter arguments only make you appear to be trying to derail. It's kind of like having a discussion with someone who thinks that by speaking louder and "swearing up and down" that he can win the discussion even though he presents no actual logical arguments.
    My post was to point out that the "issue" here is in fact not the fault of Turbine but the player bases assumption that something would not work AS STATED. Honestly, It stated very clearly what it would do. Just because past experience with a different version of the XP stone worked one way does not mean that you disregard what the item says on how it works now. The fact that XP stacking was or wasn't talked about by turbine has very little to do with this. The fact is, people assumed that this new item would work the way an older item worked, and simply ignored the fact that this new item works exactly as intended.
    Last edited by TheLegendOfAra; 07-08-2013 at 06:46 AM.
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  17. #17
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    If you can't find any proof that it was intended to work that way, then it's right to assume that it was never meant to. It's then reasonable to believe that it was fixed. Now, it is possible that Turbine did know of it when they were initially used, tried fixing it, rolled out the Otto's boxes with what they believed was a fix, it didn't work but were forbade from working on it because Warner Bros is a bunch of greedy idiots. This is now a different product, intended to work in the original intended way.

    The fact that the products have worked in an identical fashion for a little over a year is more than enough proof.

    I can't help you if you don't want to play the game, though.
    Both products have been reported recently to available in the future. This is as per Cordovan's Post on 7/03/2013:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    It is possible that both could be made available from time to time.
    This was a direct response to another player who was using an Otto's Box at the time of the discussion. To the question posed asking if Otto's Box was being directly replaced by Bigby's Box.

    It is also reasonable to expect anything you use in game, (weapons/armor/amenities/boosts/etc) to function as they are described and consistent with previous history. The exception comes in to play when we are informed of game changes via either update notes or changes in the description of the item.

    The now consistent attempt to denigrate into a debate into intended versus unintended has no place in this discussion. There are other threads for this. Please use them.

    Thank you.
    Last edited by taurean430; 07-08-2013 at 07:43 AM.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    The Bigby's Box provided no information to the consumer that it did not stack with outside xp sources.
    Not another one. It does clearly state what it will provide you with. Are you trying to angle for a class action lawsuit for misrepresentation to the consumer?

    It works exactly as described and still you complain.

    There is no amount of giffage you can add that makes any comparison to a previous bugged item that also offered XP reasonable or justified.

    You not like? You not purchase. Your many many many friends who share your misplaced and unjustified sense of injury are also free not to purchase.

    You like? You purchase.

    I fail to understand why some people are still banging on about this.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    If you can't find any proof that it was intended to work that way, then it's right to assume that it was never meant to. It's then reasonable to believe that it was fixed.
    I'm fully expecting the undocumented madstone rage effect to be removed from those boots any update now. It's not mentioned on the item so it must be a bug, right?

    My point is that sometimes something that isn't documented can be working as intended. The devs have never said that Otto's stones were not working as intended, which is just as valid an argument for them working properly as stating that they are bugged because there is no wording on the stones specifically outlining how the xp should stack with bonuses. Until we hear from a Turbine rep on this matter, anyone suggesting how the Otto's stones are supposed to work is speculating at best.
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  20. #20
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    Wrong. It is almost entirely the players fault. The player assumed that this stone would work the way the old one did.( when dealing with turbine this is kind of silly) The Otto's box XP stone that they based these assumptions on I might add, the devs never made clear if the XP stacking was a bug, or WAI. It is the equivalent of making a build based on something that may, or may not be a bug, and being upset when you get to cap and you find out that it was in fact a bug.

    Speaking as someone who bought the Otto's box and used it once, and also used the XP stone that came out around MOTU, I looked at this item and made no assumptions about how it would work except that it would work exactly as the description stated. I don't buy things because they have unstated properties. I buy them for exactly what they say the do, and anything else is a bonus.

    The fact here is people payed for an XP stone that would take them from level 7 to level 15, and that is exactly what they got. However, they're now upset it didn't also give them some extra unstated XP. I have no sympathy for this, and I'm tired of hearing about it.



    My post was to point out that the "issue" here is in fact not the fault of Turbine but the player bases assumption that something would not work AS STATED. Honestly, It stated very clearly what it would do. Just because past experience with a different version of the XP stone worked one way does not mean that you disregard what the item says on how it works now. The fact that XP stacking was or wasn't talked about by turbine has very little to do with this. The fact is, people assumed that this new item would work the way an older item worked, and simply ignored the fact that this new item works exactly as intended.
    At some point, you might want to actually read my OP as opposed to making arguments not at all related to it. The very definition of being off topic...

    I've highlighted for you.
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