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  1. #1
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Default Dear Tolero and Cordovan,

    Hello

    I'd like to make the attempt on behlaf of many players that I know or know of to make an appeal and suggestion. My intent in posting this thread is to offer a potential solution to the recent issues expressed both on the forums and in game amongst some of your most stalwart, consistent, and long term customers. I have been honored and humbled by continued interaction with these people in my gaming. And knowing the purchases they have shared with me in confidence combined with the overwhelming negativity expressed recently I feel I have no choice but to appeal to you both. On their behalf, and on the behalf of every player really...




    The Problem:

    The Otto's Box stone stacked with outside xp sources. The Bigby's Box stone does not stack with outside xp sources. The Bigby's Box provided no information to the consumer that it did not stack with outside xp sources. Someone essentially cast Implosion in the customer trust department following this discovery. Essentially because these purchases were made out of trust in the product backed by many moons of observation regarding the function of previous, similar products. This was due in a big way to the statement implying that Bigby's was 'More Awesome' than the Otto's Box. I am aware of many players currently who's experience followed the following progression:

    MORE AWESOME THAN THE OTTO'S BOX!?! HOW MANY CAN I AFFORD RIGHT NAO?




    TIME TO START THE AWESOMENESS! SHIP BUFF/POT/VOICE CHECK! LET'S DO THIS!




    OMGUUTFBBQ - WHAT JUST HAPPENED HERE? MY XP DOESN'T STACK?







    I'VE BEEN CHEATED!




    My Proposed Solution:

    Please consider pushing to implement the following solution. This is one I find to be mutually benifical for unsatisfied customers and Turbine. Since we now know that there are a significant number of players who purchased Bigby's expecting the stone within to behave like Otto's - Give them that. This is one way to do so:

    For a limited and small amount of time (max 3 days) Offer a gift exchange of sorts. Allow players who purchased a Bigby's Box to return it via the DDO store. Give them the credit in TP to allow them to purchase an Otto's Box. They would have to pay for the difference in TP to aquire the Otto's Box. I'm thinking that the mechanic used in the past to provide relief to those adversly affected with ship amenities would work well here. A code could be generated for them to make the exchange. Also, since the DDO store already uses a mechanic that determines what is offered to the player based on the character viewing it (their level and previous purchases) - it could be used to determine that the player attempting to use the mechanic indeed qualifies to use it (by having purchased the Bigby's Box during the initial holiday sale).

    Turbine will continue to profit from TP use. Players who were surprised by the initially unmentioned aspects of the Bigby's Box will have opportunity to receive what they were expecting. Future Bigby's and Otto's Box purchases are then done with the foreknowledge of how they function in use. This also allows both of these incredible leveling tools to co-exist. But most importantly, this will make a big difference for players who felt duped or worse by choosing to purchase the Bigby's Box. Consider the advantage you gain for the customer who will or will not make a purchase based upon the reputation of the brand. There is a definite upside for Turbine when considering future purchases of your products.

    Restoring some customer faith regarding what they are actually purchasing would go a long way guys. It's certainly one thing to not read the effing manual. It's another when the manual misstates by omission the actual function of the product. And that's the problem here as I see it. With this solution, many players will go from:

    THIS




    TO THIS





    Thank you both for the read. To my fellow players, please express your concerns and support. The more the better...
    Last edited by taurean430; 07-08-2013 at 08:42 AM. Reason: Highliting the actual Proposal
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  2. #2
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Reserved for future commentary if needed.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    My only thought is to wonder which game this bug is from


  4. #4
    Community Member darthhento's Avatar
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    I still don't see a reason why people buy these boxes? Why would someone pay NOT TO PLAY?
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    My only thought is to wonder which game this bug is from

    Not really a game, but it was created in Garry's Mod. It's probably from an Idiot Box video. You can find them on Youtube by searching "Gmod Idiot Box".

  6. #6
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zirun View Post
    Not really a game, but it was created in Garry's Mod. It's probably from an Idiot Box video. You can find them on Youtube by searching "Gmod Idiot Box".
    I see...

    My intention was merely to provide both light hearted amusement and personification to the communications I've had with others on this topic. If I am unfairly referencing or conjuring up a negative, I apologize.

    I only wish to reach a resolution which leaves both Turbine and the players affected positively.
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  7. #7
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    I see...

    My intention was merely to provide both light hearted amusement and personification to the communications I've had with others on this topic. If I am unfairly referencing or conjuring up a negative, I apologize.

    I only wish to reach a resolution which leaves both Turbine and the players affected positively.
    I simply can not understand peoples outrage over this non-issue. You bought a Bigby's box that hand an XP stone in it. One that stated quite clearly it would take a character from level 7 to level 15. And that is it. Didn't mention stacking XP bonus', didn't say it would work the same way an Otto's box would. So you bought it, used it, got exactly what you payed for, and what? You're upset it didn't include even more freebies?

    I mean hell, this thing gets you high enough level, and gives enough XP pots to go with it any competent TR junky can get back to cap in 1 day with this thing, maybe 2. Oh sure it's not the almost instant TR Otto's was, but is a few extra hours not at cap going to kill you?

    This seems to me to be one of the major things our player base has an issue with: Entitlement.
    I'm not saying how absurd it is to pay to not play the game, and I'm not some turbine fangirl, but when I read the description of a Bigby's box I read "7-15" Not "7-15+ whatever XP bonus' you happen to stack at the time of using it".

    I'm not going to tell people how to play their game, and I'm not gonna tell you not to be upset by... whatever it is you're upset about. I just don't see what all the fuss is about.
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  8. #8
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    I simply can not understand peoples outrage over this non-issue. You bought a Bigby's box that hand an XP stone in it. One that stated quite clearly it would take a character from level 7 to level 15. And that is it. Didn't mention stacking XP bonus', didn't say it would work the same way an Otto's box would. So you bought it, used it, got exactly what you payed for, and what? You're upset it didn't include even more freebies?

    I mean hell, this thing gets you high enough level, and gives enough XP pots to go with it any competent TR junky can get back to cap in 1 day with this thing, maybe 2. Oh sure it's not the almost instant TR Otto's was, but is a few extra hours not at cap going to kill you?

    This seems to me to be one of the major things our player base has an issue with: Entitlement.
    I'm not saying how absurd it is to pay to not play the game, and I'm not some turbine fangirl, but when I read the description of a Bigby's box I read "7-15" Not "7-15+ whatever XP bonus' you happen to stack at the time of using it".

    I'm not going to tell people how to play their game, and I'm not gonna tell you not to be upset by... whatever it is you're upset about. I just don't see what all the fuss is about.
    It seems clear to me that if all you have to offer to this thread is criticism and negativity, you should be posting elsewhere.

    The concerns of people who are in fact spending money on a product they have reasonable expectation functions in the same way as previous incarnations of the same product are not arbitrary ramblings of dissociative malcontents. Even entering this thread attempting to split hairs on player intent and expectation - effectively attempting to redirect the message into a debate that does not exist - gives me cause to question why you within the thread at all.

    The intent of this thread is to draw attention to an issue that has adversely and negatively affected the level of morale, trust, and participation of many players. Players who, through no fault of their own, relied on the expectation of a product to work in a way consistent with existing previous versions. No information given at time of release regarding the xp stacking being changed is interpreted as deception by omission by those I've communicated with. They, the purchasers, have many examples of the same being done with other products.

    Since you clearly do not understand this, you may be better served starting your own topic on the subject. Or continuing to provide input within the other threads that are in fact becoming arguments over player intent, p2win, cheating, and whatever else. I thank you for your input. Yet I must stress that you have not only misunderstood the purpose of this thread and it's proposed solution - you are also off topic.
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  9. #9
    Community Member Zillee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    To my fellow players, please express your concerns and support. The more the better...
    As amusing as the OP is, I'm not concerned about this 'issue'.

  10. #10
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    I don't understand why everyone is getting down on the OP. He brings up a very valid point.
    My immediate thoughts:
    * I think pay to NOT play is rather silly, and thus would probably never buy an xp stone. However, I can understand that some people prefer endgame (raids, etc.) and don't want to spend time leveling. And for some it can take a month or more to TR.

    * Otto's stone probably was NOT intended to stack with other sources of xp bonus. However, Turbine mucked it up, didn't plan/code adequately, etc. and the xp stone did stack. But, in typical Turbine fashion, they wouldn't admit to such, nor say that future version of xp stones will/might not stack.

    * Turbine "fixed" their mistake with Bigby's xp stone, making sure it did not stack with other sources of xp. However, they failed to tell any players of the changes.

    * It's irrelevant if the xp stone "does what it says" (level to 15) or not. The point is that Otto's stone said 7-15 but actually stacked. It's a reasonable assumption that if Bigby's stone says 7-15, that it should stack as well.

    * The OP isn't whining and having a fit. He's stating that Turbine has once again done something to **** off a lot of gamers, and that they should remedy the issue.

    * This move is another Turbine PR/customer satisfaction screw up. If they fixed it (or changed it), they should have announced to everyone very clearly that the xp would not stack. Why is it so hard for Turbine to communicate with us?

    * It's because of things like this that make many others hesitant to buy things from Turbine. I see this happen, and then look at the new expansion. Should I risk pre-ording it when it could really suck? Maybe I should just wait until a month after release to see what player feedback is, and then THEN order it (especially since it'll probably be 1/2 off and purchasable with TP).

    * Every time Turbine does something like this (even if it's minor) it undermines players trust in them. And in the future, players are less likely to take any risks or buy anything until others have and can confirm that it doesn't suck and it's a move to rip them off.

    * Most of the previous posts are pointless derailments to the OP. They are either missing the point, ignoring the point, or don't care either way. Speak to the points the OP brought up. If you are going to argue against what he is saying, you must bring up points that speak directly to his points. Unrelated counter arguments only make you appear to be trying to derail. It's kind of like having a discussion with someone who thinks that by speaking louder and "swearing up and down" that he can win the discussion even though he presents no actual logical arguments.

  11. #11
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    The intent of this thread is to draw attention to an issue that has adversely and negatively affected the level of morale, trust, and participation of many players. Players who, through no fault of their own, relied on the expectation of a product to work in a way consistent with existing previous versions. No information given at time of release regarding the xp stacking being changed is interpreted as deception by omission by those I've communicated with. They, the purchasers, have many examples of the same being done with other products.
    .
    Wrong. It is almost entirely the players fault. The player assumed that this stone would work the way the old one did.( when dealing with turbine this is kind of silly) The Otto's box XP stone that they based these assumptions on I might add, the devs never made clear if the XP stacking was a bug, or WAI. It is the equivalent of making a build based on something that may, or may not be a bug, and being upset when you get to cap and you find out that it was in fact a bug.

    Speaking as someone who bought the Otto's box and used it once, and also used the XP stone that came out around MOTU, I looked at this item and made no assumptions about how it would work except that it would work exactly as the description stated. I don't buy things because they have unstated properties. I buy them for exactly what they say the do, and anything else is a bonus.

    The fact here is people payed for an XP stone that would take them from level 7 to level 15, and that is exactly what they got. However, they're now upset it didn't also give them some extra unstated XP. I have no sympathy for this, and I'm tired of hearing about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catteras View Post
    * Most of the previous posts are pointless derailments to the OP. They are either missing the point, ignoring the point, or don't care either way. Speak to the points the OP brought up. If you are going to argue against what he is saying, you must bring up points that speak directly to his points. Unrelated counter arguments only make you appear to be trying to derail. It's kind of like having a discussion with someone who thinks that by speaking louder and "swearing up and down" that he can win the discussion even though he presents no actual logical arguments.
    My post was to point out that the "issue" here is in fact not the fault of Turbine but the player bases assumption that something would not work AS STATED. Honestly, It stated very clearly what it would do. Just because past experience with a different version of the XP stone worked one way does not mean that you disregard what the item says on how it works now. The fact that XP stacking was or wasn't talked about by turbine has very little to do with this. The fact is, people assumed that this new item would work the way an older item worked, and simply ignored the fact that this new item works exactly as intended.
    Last edited by TheLegendOfAra; 07-08-2013 at 07:46 AM.
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  12. #12
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    Wrong. It is almost entirely the players fault. The player assumed that this stone would work the way the old one did.( when dealing with turbine this is kind of silly) The Otto's box XP stone that they based these assumptions on I might add, the devs never made clear if the XP stacking was a bug, or WAI. It is the equivalent of making a build based on something that may, or may not be a bug, and being upset when you get to cap and you find out that it was in fact a bug.

    Speaking as someone who bought the Otto's box and used it once, and also used the XP stone that came out around MOTU, I looked at this item and made no assumptions about how it would work except that it would work exactly as the description stated. I don't buy things because they have unstated properties. I buy them for exactly what they say the do, and anything else is a bonus.

    The fact here is people payed for an XP stone that would take them from level 7 to level 15, and that is exactly what they got. However, they're now upset it didn't also give them some extra unstated XP. I have no sympathy for this, and I'm tired of hearing about it.



    My post was to point out that the "issue" here is in fact not the fault of Turbine but the player bases assumption that something would not work AS STATED. Honestly, It stated very clearly what it would do. Just because past experience with a different version of the XP stone worked one way does not mean that you disregard what the item says on how it works now. The fact that XP stacking was or wasn't talked about by turbine has very little to do with this. The fact is, people assumed that this new item would work the way an older item worked, and simply ignored the fact that this new item works exactly as intended.
    At some point, you might want to actually read my OP as opposed to making arguments not at all related to it. The very definition of being off topic...

    I've highlighted for you.
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  13. #13
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    At some point, you might want to actually read my OP as opposed to making arguments not at all related to it. The very definition of being off topic...

    I've highlighted for you.
    I did in fact read your OP, and I'm still /not signed.

    I don't care how upset about it people get, how many threads you make about it, the fact remains the stones work exactly as they are supposed to, and they are exactly what you payed for.
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  14. #14
    Community Member TheNameIwasntB4's Avatar
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    Default I will be the Devil's Advocate

    Can you show me where Turbine EVER said the Stone of Experience from MotU in 2012 would stack with other bonuses?

    That was found out by trial and error by people when we received them starting in March of 2012.

    So, Bigby's Stone specifically does not mention that it will go with bonuses. I would assume that it does not stack, but if it did then bonus for me. It mentions that it is level 7 to level 15.

    Should all the people that did not use their stones in 2012 with bonuses stacking be made whole? After all, they had them and they probably had potions of EXP, and the Voice, and quite possibly the guild ship bonus.

    On my first character that I did it with, I know I did not have bonuses stacking and I only went to level 16. Because that is what the Stone said. I am sure if I complained about that, the reaction of the forum base would be "Siphons to be you."
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    Everyone seems to be missing the main points.

    1. Fan / Player base specifically asked for Otto's boxes for the holiday sale.

    2. Turbine rep said sure, but would release something even better.

    3. Said release was not Otto's and from the many responses on all the threads, it's a lesser product and was not received well.

    4. Bigby's is NOT Otto's and that IS clear (we all agree on this, what's with all the redundancy)

    5. DDO patrons felt jipped by the lesser product release.

    6. OP has offered a solution to that.

    7. Trolls get excited.

    No one said Bigby's is Otto's or vice versa. Not sure why everyone is repeating the same thing over and over and giving OP grief about offering a solution.

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    I really don't see why anyone could have "reasonable expectations" that an item clearly stating it raises a character to lvl 15, does anything but raise the character to lvl 15.

    Anyone expecting something else should perhaps learn to read and not to expect some bug affecting an item.
    There is no good faith in the existence of a bug. Go to lawyer, they'll explain it to you.

    There was never a confirmation that Otto's boxes were WAI. If a dev had stated something like that, then - maybe - you could have a case of good faith based on reasonable expectations. Otherwise, you are just venting off on a misplaced concept of entitlement.

  17. #17
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    As the points that the OP, Full Bleed, and others have made, I don't really understand why people are trying to demonize the consumer. The OP is offering a solution for those patrons that felt wronged by the transaction between patrons who anticipated and reasonably expected a historically operating product. Please keep in mind the series of events:

    1. People asked for the Otto's Box to be released for the holiday weekend.
    2. Turbine rep says not only will we offer that but we'll make it BETTER.
    3. People buy Turbine Points to stock up.
    4. A different product was released and turns out was less of a deal than just offering an Ottos and it was a different product altogether.
    5. People are frustrated.
    6. OP offers a solution

    No one is asking for anything free, just fair and reasonable communication and product offering. If the statement by QuartermasterX wasn't made, sure, people would've waited for the "right" product to be released before purchasing.

    So what is up with the nasty overtones to make the consumers of Turbine products look/feel bad? Is it a stretch to expect something to be as it was for over a year?

    If your spouse/significant other comes home with a sex change one day after 1 year of being "the same", would you feel a little put-off? Oh wait, maybe you should ASSUME change is always the case and NO to little notification would suffice. Ok, maybe an extreme analogy but if the same Great Pizza I had purchased for 1 year got changed and I was told by the Pizza place owner that he/she would provide me with something BETTER and it is not, hell yes, I would be upset and would want what I knew as the "old" pizza.

    If you don't agree with the solution provided by the OP, offer another solution, perhaps? OP wasn't looking for a debate on how the Box was suppose to work, just an option to win back the patronage of the consumers of the "new" product that felt jipped.

    Money was spent here. We're not talking about the "NO" notification on my FOM cookies that I saved up from every coin festival event to use on my gimpy toons while questing. Only to wake up one day and they have become Shock weapon buffs. I, as others, were really perturbed about that but since there was no RL money exchange, I could chalk that up to terrible Turbine communication.

    Now here we are with people who spent $40 per box and I expect there to be some backlash for that terrible or NON communication. Some can easily see this as even deception. People that are buying are the people that keep the existence of the game. Whether you like the box idea or not, it was a product by Turbine that was produced for revenue. Don't scr*w the pooch.

  18. #18
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    No information given at time of release regarding the xp stacking being changed is interpreted as deception by omission by those I've communicated with. They, the purchasers, have many examples of the same being done with other products.
    So are you saying things like this have happened before (product not working the same as similar products offered previously)? Then perhaps caution and questions would be appropriate before a mass stampede to purchase multiples of the new product would be warranted? You know, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice.... lol


    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    People who spent a lot of rl funds on this product were, I believe, mislead by omission regarding it's function.
    I do agree, hopefully something will work out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catteras View Post
    I don't understand why everyone is getting down on the OP. He brings up a very valid point.
    My immediate thoughts:
    I pretty much agree as well. However, didn't the Otto get you to level 16, not 15? Thus it is essentially a different product altogether from the Bigby's. I might be wrong.

  19. #19
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Two different objects provide two different results when used.

    One has an unintended side effect, the other does not.

    One costs more and the other has a reduced price.

    The only real issue is that some players assumed that they both worked the same.

    This happens all the time when you assume.

    Next time don't assume.


    With that, well written post OP.

    Do not think a return for a Otto Box will work, logistically speaking. Best thing to do is to trade/sell it off and wait for an Otto's.

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  20. #20
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    The box works as intended.

    But please, keep up with these threads because at least they let the devs know how much people loathe the L15-20 XP curve....
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