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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenmity View Post
    Regardless of what you think, and what your gut tells you, you are incorrect in every sense of the word from a legal standpoint. Theft is the deprivation of property and is a criminal offense. Copyright infringement is NOT deprivation of property, and is a civil offense.

    Legally, and even in the common vernacular (as others here have pointed out), you are completely wrong.
    That may be true in your country, but in the U.S.A., the FBI disagrees with your claim.
    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investig...collar/ipr/ipr


    Please note this small excerpt:

    "The FBI, along with the U.S. Attorney’s Offices, has made investigating and preventing intellectual property theft a top priority within the Bureau. Violating these laws by reproducing or distributing copyrighted work, with or without monetary gain, is investigated by the FBI and punishable by fines and federal imprisonment" (Federal Bureau of Investigation, Retrieved from http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investig...pr/anti-piracy).

    As you can see, I am not just offering up my own opinion about the 'morality' of IP theft; I am offering a warning that certain actions really are crimes, even if certain people don't want to believe it. I just want you all to be safe.
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  2. #82
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    Others have already mentioned Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2 with their toolsets.

    Artworks, sound, music & the campaign settings are protected by copyrights. I'm not sure about the rules as you could resort to d20 rules that were published under the open gaming license. If you should chose another ruleset there is always the option to negotiate with the authors/copyright holders.

    Using Turbine's client code and trying to reverse engineer the server components holds various legal issues. Simply get the rulebooks for the edition you like and start programming away. Sadly if I wanted to see another 2nd edition computer game I have no other choice than the latter path (it's only years from now that I'd be done ,-) ).

  3. #83
    Community Member Zenmity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    That may be true in your country, but in the U.S.A., the FBI disagrees with your claim.
    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investig...collar/ipr/ipr


    Please note this small excerpt:

    "The FBI, along with the U.S. Attorney’s Offices, has made investigating and preventing intellectual property theft a top priority within the Bureau. Violating these laws by reproducing or distributing copyrighted work, with or without monetary gain, is investigated by the FBI and punishable by fines and federal imprisonment" (Federal Bureau of Investigation, Retrieved from http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investig...pr/anti-piracy).

    As you can see, I am not just offering up my own opinion about the 'morality' of IP theft; I am offering a warning that certain actions really are crimes, even if certain people don't want to believe it. I just want you all to be safe.
    As others have pointed out in this thread, you are using a "strawman argument". I think you know that you are, have painted yourself in a corner, and just don't see a way out. Strawman, however, it is.

    Again, downloaded a song or movie or what these people are talking about in this thread is NOT a crime in any jurisdiction in the United States. Not at the federal level, not at the state level, and not at the local level. Not anywhere. "Unauthorized Reproduction" is a term used to describe copying and distributing Intellectual Property, NOT "I just downloaded a song". The FBI investigates crimes, NOT civil matters.

    It's a shame that the MPAA and RIAA have people like you wrapped around their finger and want you to THINK that it's a "crime", it is not in any shape or form. It's simply not a crime to download music. Distribute it, sell it, THEN you're starting to break some inter-state laws.

    YOU ARE WRONG.

    ...I'd bet my law degree against your petty assertions any day of the week.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenmity View Post
    ...I'd bet my law degree against your petty assertions any day of the week.
    Hope you are in Canada (where it is legal to download) or some other place then. Per US law and the Digital Millennium Act, downloading is illegal as well. (unless it has been amended further than what I remember.) Just a lot harder to track compared to uploaders.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Hope you are in Canada (where it is legal to download) or some other place then. Per US law and the Digital Millennium Act, downloading is illegal as well. (unless it has been amended further than what I remember.) Just a lot harder to track compared to uploaders.
    No, it does NOT.

    In an attempt to cut down on downloading, the DMCA was put in place to punish (both in civil and criminal court) distribution networks. It was not, and still does not, make it a criminal offense to download music or video.

    It's insane the amount of misinformation going on in this thread. Downloading is a civil offense, and always have been.

    Downloading is NOT a criminal offense in the United States.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenmity View Post
    No, it does NOT.

    In an attempt to cut down on downloading, the DMCA was put in place to punish (both in civil and criminal court) distribution networks. It was not, and still does not, make it a criminal offense to download music or video.

    It's insane the amount of misinformation going on in this thread. Downloading is a civil offense, and always have been.

    Downloading is NOT a criminal offense in the United States.
    How can downloading be legal and a civil offense?

    If you want to scream about insanity, you better make clear what you are saying in respect to what others are saying.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zakharov View Post
    Maybe this is an age/cultural thing. I don't think I've met anyone under 30 who would describe that as theft.
    I've heard of many people (not just young) who feel entitled to things and will simply take them if they can't afford them. Those people are called thieves...

    Even young musicians I've met would be delighted if people pirated their music.
    This statement shows that the musicians in question do not care if other people use their music without paying and in fact encourage it - that means that they implicitly give their permission so of course it isn't theft. We're talking about people / companies that DO NOT give their permission and DO care.

    Of course anyone is entitled to give away their IP for free. As we know there are many people who write software for the Public Domain. But there are many people who create IP as a job - ie. to get paid for it. Those people by law have rights to their IP. If you use it without paying / permission you are stealing their property.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenmity View Post
    No, it does NOT.

    In an attempt to cut down on downloading, the DMCA was put in place to punish (both in civil and criminal court) distribution networks. It was not, and still does not, make it a criminal offense to download music or video.

    It's insane the amount of misinformation going on in this thread. Downloading is a civil offense, and always have been.

    Downloading is NOT a criminal offense in the United States.
    While it may be true that individual downloading is not a criminal offense, it is a civil offense and, more importantly, it is morally wrong. Just because it is not feasible for a company to track down every single individual that stole from them and take them to court does not make it OK to do. And frankly I look forward to the day when such theft does become criminal and people will start having such crimes on their public record for their employers to see.

    If you really think its ok to steal IP, let your employer know your opinion and see how long you have a job...

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    How can downloading be legal and a civil offense?

    If you want to scream about insanity, you better make clear what you are saying in respect to what others are saying.
    There are two basic forms of law: Criminal and Civil. Something is Criminal because the government has decided that, whether someone complains or not, it is against the interests of the government to allow it to happen. That is why Crimes (in the formal sense of the word) are prosecuted by the government and can involve Jail time.

    Civil law regards one individual or company vs. another. There is no government involvement apart from the Judge. Civil matters do not result in Jail time but other forms of reparation can be stipulated.

    A famous case where both types of law applied was the OJ Simpson trial where he was acquitted in his Criminal trial but found guilty in the Civil trial.

    Just because an action isn't "Criminal" doesn't mean that it isn't wrong - that's why you can still be punished in the courts for Civil actions.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    How can downloading be legal and a civil offense?
    So a women taking her husband to court for divorce should be illegal?

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    While it may be true that individual downloading is not a criminal offense, it is a civil offense and, more importantly, it is morally wrong. Just because it is not feasible for a company to track down every single individual that stole from them and take them to court does not make it OK to do. And frankly I look forward to the day when such theft does become criminal and people will start having such crimes on their public record for their employers to see.

    If you really think its ok to steal IP, let your employer know your opinion and see how long you have a job...
    But don't confuse "what I want" with "the law".

    I think women who falsely accuse men of rape should be burned at the stake. However, that's not law, it's not popular, and it'll likely never happen.

    It doesn't really matter what you think or feel should happen, it matter what the law entails, how it is interpreted, and how we change it. Your opinion has zero influence. (Okay, the opinion of nine people in the entire county - THEIR opinion matters... that's about it)
    Last edited by Zenmity; 07-13-2013 at 02:42 PM.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenmity View Post
    But don't confuse "what I want" with "the law".

    I think women who falsely accuse men of rape should be burned at the stake. However, that's not law, it's not popular, and it'll likely never happen.

    It doesn't really matter what you think or feel should happen, it matter what the law entails, how it is interpreted, and how we change it. Your opinion has zero influence. (Okay, the opinion of seven people in the entire county - THEIR opinion matters... that's about it)
    You admit that I stipulated my opinion and then you accuse me of thinking its the law. I think you're confused. LOL

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    There are two basic forms of law: Criminal and Civil. Something is Criminal because the government has decided that, whether someone complains or not, it is against the interests of the government to allow it to happen. That is why Crimes (in the formal sense of the word) are prosecuted by the government and can involve Jail time.

    Civil law regards one individual or company vs. another. There is no government involvement apart from the Judge. Civil matters do not result in Jail time but other forms of reparation can be stipulated.

    A famous case where both types of law applied was the OJ Simpson trial where he was acquitted in his Criminal trial but found guilty in the Civil trial.

    Just because an action isn't "Criminal" doesn't mean that it isn't wrong - that's why you can still be punished in the courts for Civil actions.
    All of which just still seems to point to the fact it is illegal (which is what I've been stating) but the US gov doesn't want to fill the federal courts more and will let the civil courts handle it as one party is using another party's property without expressed permission.

    And I see that the lawyer is living up to lawyer sterotypes. Pitty. Here he could be educating people and asking questions to figure out how best to clear up confusion, but instead goes on a rant and asinine tangents to the topic at hand.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenmity View Post
    As others have pointed out in this thread, you are using a "strawman argument". I think you know that you are, have painted yourself in a corner, and just don't see a way out. Strawman, however, it is.

    Again, downloaded a song or movie or what these people are talking about in this thread is NOT a crime in any jurisdiction in the United States. Not at the federal level, not at the state level, and not at the local level. Not anywhere. "Unauthorized Reproduction" is a term used to describe copying and distributing Intellectual Property, NOT "I just downloaded a song". The FBI investigates crimes, NOT civil matters.

    It's a shame that the MPAA and RIAA have people like you wrapped around their finger and want you to THINK that it's a "crime", it is not in any shape or form. It's simply not a crime to download music. Distribute it, sell it, THEN you're starting to break some inter-state laws.

    YOU ARE WRONG.

    ...I'd bet my law degree against your petty assertions any day of the week.
    You have a distorted, twisty way of arguing. I believe you are deliberately provoking further argument with your posts. /ignore

    I apologize to the legitimate posters in this thread for feeding the troll.
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  15. #95
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    The discussion to which degree an "emulation" is legal or illegal leads nowhere. The owner(s) may or may not chose to go to court. If that should happen the guys that made an "emulator" better be prepared to pay quite some money on lawyers. An excursion to the courts can take quite some time to be resolved (or settled).

    If someone still were determined to make such an "emulator" there is a way to do so. Asking the forum community won't get you far. Find out who holds the rights to various aspects of DDO/D&D. Talk with them. Simple as that. They may be willing to help with or just tolerate such a project. They may not be itnerested. Who knows but you should try this way first.

    (1) To be allowed to use the campaign settings (Ebberon & Forgotten Realms) and the D&D brand one would first have to speak and negotiate with Wizards of the Coast.

    (2) To be allowed to use Turbine's code (client & server side), the artwork, sound & music one would need to speak and negotiate with Turbine (or maybe its parent company). Reverse engineering the server side code might offer additional legal and technical pitfalls.


    The other alternative is to simply create something from scratch while resorting to material published under the free gaming license.

  16. #96
    Community Member Zenmity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    You have a distorted, twisty way of arguing. I believe you are deliberately provoking further argument with your posts. /ignore.
    You're still wrong in every way. /shrug.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuxanes View Post
    (1) To be allowed to use the campaign settings (Ebberon & Forgotten Realms) and the D&D brand one would first have to speak and negotiate with Wizards of the Coast.

    (2) To be allowed to use Turbine's code (client & server side), the artwork, sound & music one would need to speak and negotiate with Turbine (or maybe its parent company). Reverse engineering the server side code might offer additional legal and technical pitfalls.
    True, but neither of these two things matter in a practical matter.

    Ultima Online (likely one of the biggest IP in gaming over time, Ultima) has never been challenged in court.

    Star Wars: Galaxies (likely one of the biggest IPs anwhere, Star Wars) has also never been challenged in court.

    D&D, and especially DDO, wouldn't be challenged in court, either.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenmity View Post
    True, but neither of these two things matter in a practical matter.
    Ultima Online (likely one of the biggest IP in gaming over time, Ultima) has never been challenged in court.
    Star Wars: Galaxies (likely one of the biggest IPs anwhere, Star Wars) has also never been challenged in court.
    D&D, and especially DDO, wouldn't be challenged in court, either.
    I know nothing about Ultima.

    Star Wars was owned for a long time by a person that encouraged fans. That is no longer true. It is now owned by a company that is quite rabid about protecting what it its. I would expect the future to change here.

    While I know not of DDO/Turbine, but WB is quite protective of their IP as well. However, I'd expect Hasbro to strike first. They did with Atari after all.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    I know nothing about Ultima.

    Star Wars was owned for a long time by a person that encouraged fans. That is no longer true. It is now owned by a company that is quite rabid about protecting what it its. I would expect the future to change here.

    While I know not of DDO/Turbine, but WB is quite protective of their IP as well. However, I'd expect Hasbro to strike first. They did with Atari after all.
    Fair enough.

    How about World of Warcraft, the largest MMORPG by about 10-15x its closest competitor.

    Has emulated server. Blizzard has has done nothing in the courts.

    Just because Mickey Mouse owns Star Wars, it doesn't mean SWGEMU will be any less relevant and successful.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenmity View Post
    Fair enough.

    How about World of Warcraft, the largest MMORPG by about 10-15x its closest competitor.

    Has emulated server. Blizzard has has done nothing in the courts.

    Just because Mickey Mouse owns Star Wars, it doesn't mean SWGEMU will be any less relevant and successful.
    *shrugs* different company, different priorities. Comparing what Blizzard does vs Disney to come to a conclusion about what Disney will do? Rather pointless in my opinion. Just going off the history of Disney offers better weight of what will probably happen.

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