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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zakharov View Post
    As a side note to those taking a hardline stance against any & all software emulation/whatever you want to call it - the SWG emulator is a great example of something that you could not possibly buy anymore, its dead and gone. You could not pay the programmers of that product in any legit way other than maybe tracking them each down individually and sending them personal checks. If I did send those checks would that be sufficient in your mind?
    Payment would only be sufficient if that was agreed-upon by the owner(s). In my opinion the only way using IP without permission is "ok" is when all copy and other rights have expired or been given up and it is in the Public Domain.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    No, it's just a technicality, but technicalities are the soul of law.

    People have odd ideas concerning the relative moral impacts of acts. I'd rather someone be a thief than to ever drive drunk, for example, but I'm sure there are people here who consider driving drunk to be a much more accepted occurrence than robbery. Personally I'd rather be robbed of worldly goods than murdered by an intoxicated driver.

    DDO is full of people with different backgrounds/morals/ideals, due to it's diverse customer base; people of different ages/ethnicity/backgrounds have differing opinions on the relative nature of offenses.
    I guess I don't understand what relativity has to do with it. Just because DUI is worse than theft doesn't make theft OK.

  3. #63
    Community Member grausherra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Payment would only be sufficient if that was agreed-upon by the owner(s). In my opinion the only way using IP without permission is "ok" is when all copy and other rights have expired or been given up and it is in the Public Domain.
    And no one has permission to SWG, LucasArts pulled the Star Wars license form Sony.

    You'd ahv eot get permission form both Disney and Sony now :P

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by clkpacker View Post
    This is an incredibly oversimplified argument.

    When I was a teen, I pirated Photoshop. I was not stealing from Adobe. Why?
    --(a) There is no direct loss to Adobe--they have infinite copies of Photoshop. My taking a copy in no way prevents them from selling a copy to someone else
    --(b) I had no intention nor ability to actually purchase Photoshop. If I didn't pirate Photoshop, I just wouldn't have Photoshop. And, going back to (a), my having Photoshop in no way hurts Adobe (on the contrary, it may have led to gains for Adobe later on--Photoshop, and many expensive professional tools now give hugely discounted or free student/learner downloads, so that newcomers to the profession learn on that company's tools and thus purchase those tools later).

    There's no guarantee that people populating this fictitious urDDO would be lost revenue for Turbine. The fact that they've gravitated to an old version implies that they've already left the game or are going to soon leave the game because they're unhappy with the changes, regardless of whether urDDO exists or not. There is also no guarantee that these people have spent or will spend more money on DDO should urDDO not exist.

    IP theft is in no way as simple as regular ol' actual-solid-thing theft.
    If you take something that does not belong to you, and you take it without permission, you are a thief. The argument you provide against this is mere rationalization. By your own admission, you are a thief. You are also clearly unrepentant.
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  5. #65
    Community Member grausherra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I guess I don't understand what relativity has to do with it. Just because DUI is worse than theft doesn't make theft OK.
    Sorry, didn't mean to indicate that theft is ok, I meant to point out that different people have different opinions on what is comparatively good or bad, which is what is leading to some rather strong statements in this thread in general.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    If you take something that does not belong to you, and you take it without permission, you are a thief. The argument you provide against this is mere rationalization. By your own admission, you are a thief. You are also clearly unrepentant.
    No need to go all paladin on us!

    This is a major point of debate in society though and while there may be somewhat clear legal definitions of theft your moral statements are not so objective.

    What if I had a device that could scan your car in great detail and print a copy of it? I walk by on the street, point it at your driveway, walk home & print out a car for myself. Is that theft?

    Maybe this is an age/cultural thing. I don't think I've met anyone under 30 who would describe that as theft. Even young musicians I've met would be delighted if people pirated their music. If that represents the zeitgeist of todays youth & tomorrows lawmakers then how can you make such declaratory statements about what is right or wrong, what is theft or not? If society moves far enough in that direction at what point would you revise your opinion?

  7. #67
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clkpacker View Post
    This is an incredibly oversimplified argument.

    When I was a teen, I pirated Photoshop. I was not stealing from Adobe. Why?
    --(a) There is no direct loss to Adobe--they have infinite copies of Photoshop. My taking a copy in no way prevents them from selling a copy to someone else
    --(b) I had no intention nor ability to actually purchase Photoshop. If I didn't pirate Photoshop, I just wouldn't have Photoshop. And, going back to (a), my having Photoshop in no way hurts Adobe (on the contrary, it may have led to gains for Adobe later on--Photoshop, and many expensive professional tools now give hugely discounted or free student/learner downloads, so that newcomers to the profession learn on that company's tools and thus purchase those tools later).
    Wow.. what a crock of absolute ****.

    Fact: you stole.

    In most cases, when you have to rationalize something, you have committed bad. If it were good or ok, there would be very little need to rationalize.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zakharov View Post
    No need to go all paladin on us!

    This is a major point of debate in society though and while there may be somewhat clear legal definitions of theft your moral statements are not so objective.

    What if I had a device that could scan your car in great detail and print a copy of it? I walk by on the street, point it at your driveway, walk home & print out a car for myself. Is that theft?

    Maybe this is an age/cultural thing. I don't think I've met anyone under 30 who would describe that as theft. Even young musicians I've met would be delighted if people pirated their music. If that represents the zeitgeist of todays youth & tomorrows lawmakers then how can you make such declaratory statements about what is right or wrong, what is theft or not? If society moves far enough in that direction at what point would you revise your opinion?
    This is known as a 'strawman' argument. This fallacy is a type of rhetorical sleight of hand intended to give the appearance of addressing the issue while actually avoiding it. This tactic is commonly used by those who know they haven't a leg to stand on. I accept your surrender.
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  9. #69
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clkpacker View Post
    This is an incredibly oversimplified argument.

    When I was a teen, I pirated Photoshop. I was not stealing from Adobe. Why?
    --(a) There is no direct loss to Adobe--they have infinite copies of Photoshop. My taking a copy in no way prevents them from selling a copy to someone else
    --(b) I had no intention nor ability to actually purchase Photoshop. If I didn't pirate Photoshop, I just wouldn't have Photoshop. And, going back to (a), my having Photoshop in no way hurts Adobe (on the contrary, it may have led to gains for Adobe later on--Photoshop, and many expensive professional tools now give hugely discounted or free student/learner downloads, so that newcomers to the profession learn on that company's tools and thus purchase those tools later).

    There's no guarantee that people populating this fictitious urDDO would be lost revenue for Turbine. The fact that they've gravitated to an old version implies that they've already left the game or are going to soon leave the game because they're unhappy with the changes, regardless of whether urDDO exists or not. There is also no guarantee that these people have spent or will spend more money on DDO should urDDO not exist.

    IP theft is in no way as simple as regular ol' actual-solid-thing theft.
    I have to say, stop rationalizing. I did that kind of stuff as a teen and into my twenties too before I had a family ext. Guess what I stole, and in the same circumstances would again. While there were potentially innocent stockholders that got hurt from enough people doing so, it mainly hurt large companies and I'm happy it did. Admit to your theft and take pride in it.
    Last edited by Charononus; 07-10-2013 at 07:09 PM. Reason: typo

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    This is known as a 'strawman' argument. This fallacy is a type of rhetorical sleight of hand intended to give the appearance of addressing the issue while actually avoiding it. This tactic is commonly used by those who know they haven't a leg to stand on. I accept your surrender.
    You must be trolling - this is no strawman, this is a very real scenario that will happen in our lifetime and mirrors the current issues around 'stealing' music, movies, etc. My statement stands, most people under 30 do not consider downloading something that they would not have otherwise purchased to be theft no matter what you say.

    How about a better example if you hate theoreticals? I will never, under any circumstances subscribe to any cable service or HBO. Never have, never will - they are completely archaic and useless 'services' that are grasping at straws to stay relevant and they can't die quick enough. I will however buy Game of Thrones discs when they are released but I'd rather watch them right away. Is it theft to watch them now without a subscription if you will buy the disc later?


    Also please stop with the personal attacks.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zakharov View Post
    You must be trolling - this is no strawman, this is a very real scenario that will happen in our lifetime and mirrors the current issues around 'stealing' music, movies, etc. My statement stands, most people under 30 do not consider downloading something that they would not have otherwise purchased to be theft no matter what you say.

    How about a better example if you hate theoreticals? I will never, under any circumstances subscribe to any cable service or HBO. Never have, never will - they are completely archaic and useless 'services' that are grasping at straws to stay relevant and they can't die quick enough. I will however buy Game of Thrones discs when they are released but I'd rather watch them right away. Is it theft to watch them now without a subscription if you will buy the disc later?


    Also please stop with the personal attacks.
    And yet another attempt at misdirection. So long as you persist on spreading lies, you invite disagreement. You also invite critique of your argument. Of your person, I offer no opinion; of your argument, I say FAIL.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    And yet another attempt at misdirection. So long as you persist on spreading lies, you invite disagreement. You also invite critique of your argument. Of your person, I offer no opinion; of your argument, I say FAIL.
    What lies? Can you at least be specific about why & what you disagree with rather than general berating? You seem to have no real point other than "you people are bad & your arguments are bad".

    That is not constructive or useful to anyone. If you have a real point please make it, maybe I'll change my mind. You can't convince anyone you are right without some explanation of why.

  13. #73
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    Why not just ask Turbine to put up a 'Classic' server and make a client available for an earlier version of the game, or are you looking for a version of DDO that never existed?
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Why not just ask Turbine to put up a 'Classic' server and make a client available for an earlier version of the game, or are you looking for a version of DDO that never existed?
    I wish this would happen & I'd be happy to pay for it. I've suggested something like this in other threads, a 'core rules' or 'hardcore' character option or separate server.

    My hope would be the current game content as is but with the mechanics redone to be closer to core rules. The game at launch was much closer with things like xp loss, permanent blind, spell durations much higher, golem spell immunity, etc. Anything that made things at all difficult or dangerous caused enough people to complain and they got nerfed. Then they added scaling, hires & other difficulties. Eventually they added in something difficult again with epic modes but that got nerfed as well with MotU.

    Any 1 of these changes wouldn't bother me so much but a thousand little things added up over time make this play more and more like any other mmo and it just gets boring. Currently the last major advantage this game has is character customization and now that is going to be upended with the enhancement pass changes and bring us ever closer to being a WoW clone. Well I don't want to play that kind of game, if I did there are plenty of other options including turbines own Lotro (which I also played for a couple months before going numb with boredom).

    If there is any chance of a 'core rules' server (unlikely due to already low populations) or maybe a character option (perhaps more likely & easier to implement) I'd love it and pay extra for it. They could even call it 'classic' or 'hardcore' depending on whatever tests well.

    The problem is are there enough people (or do they think there are enough people) that would play that to warrant the time & money? I'm very doubtful which is the reason for this post in the first place. I don't think they will bother catering to the playstyle I would enjoy most. I bet they could get more people to try it if they call it 'hardcore' mode.. cmon games from other companies have similar modes, why not borrow that too?

  15. #75
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    You are defining 'emulator' in a manner designed to exclude the common usage of the term. If you want exclude common usage of the words 'emulator' and 'emulation' and only use a narrow technical definition then you are 100% correct.
    “Common usage?” You obviously have done very little programming, or have worked with very few emulators. I’ve worked with so many – over the course of decades – to know both what they are, and why they are so defined.

    You are out of your league with this stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    Server emulators(what you define as a copied server) are often developed along the lines of the first IBM clones were, here is a good summary of how they came about: Clean room design
    Pffth!

    “Clean Room Design” does not exist these days. It certainly does not exist in some of the examples you cited, and I can almost guarantee you it will not exist after the lawyers get done with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    Basically, a way you can create code that copies the FUNCTIONALITY of a known system without copying the form in any manner. There can't be any accusation of copying the original work, since no one has access to the copeid servers code base :P Proven to be safe from copyright issues several times in court, even with Sony leading the charge against it.
    HAH! This is utterly laughable.

    The odds you will create a server that handles requests from a client piece of software without a) having that software in your possession, and b) using said client software are next to nil. You are living in Fantasyland.






    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    I'm not representing my own viewpoints on this matter, I'm representing an opposing viewpoint to your own. Understand the difference, and keep the personal attacks out of the thread.
    Yeah, nice attempt to dodge the fact that you are advocating software theft.

    I guess the dead-giveaway was the fact that you called people using illegal software “pirates,” but then saying they were nice people. Every met a pirate before? They generally aren’t nice people.


    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    DDO(and other MMO clients) cannot function independent of the main server, at all. That makes it a thin client. The fact that it does some logic on its own is what makes it a thin client, as opposed to a dumb client/terminal. Ragnarok is also not browser based, in works in a similar manner to the EQ/WoW/DDO/etc.

    Something like Diablo 2, or the new Simcity, which can play independently of the main server and only requires periodic connectivity to sync, are good examples of thick clients.


    Also, while the loot tables exist in the client, they are there as a part of a resource that is published to both the client and the server; the client does not control loot generation, it merely has access to libraries which are published to both server and client(because its silly to build multiple libraries when you can push the same one to both server and client and just not utilize the extra stuff on the client). If you are bored, you can always verify this with something like Ollydbg and Wireshark.
    Ummm…no.

    Again, you have no frickin’ clue as to what you are talking about here. You cannot define something as a client without a server (hence the definition of “client/server”). Anything defined as a client must have a server.

    To simplify, thick clients, are clients with business logic on them. Thin-clients are not. DDO is a thick-client system. Diablo is a thick-client system. In fact, Diablo is a hybrid of both a standalone app and a thick client.

    I was around before these definitions even existed. I’ve been working in this field long after they were defined. I’ve written hundreds of them over my career. I know what they are. It is very obvious to me that you don’t. So please, stop trying.

    Thick client - can work independent of main server for extended periods of time
    Thin client - some logic work on the client, but requires constant connectivity to function
    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    Dumb client - no logic local to client at all, all work done on server, often only handles screen draws or terminal access
    It’s called “dumb terminal” not “dumb client”. It is what thin-client simulates or replaced.

    You are out of your depth, Sonny.

  16. #76
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clkpacker View Post
    This is an incredibly oversimplified argument.
    When I was a teen, I pirated Photoshop. I was not stealing from Adobe. Why?
    Ummm, like the last lame-brain that makes these kinds of assertions, do you not READ what you just typed? “Pirate?” You know what pirates do? They steal.

    Quote Originally Posted by clkpacker View Post
    --(a) There is no direct loss to Adobe--they have infinite copies of Photoshop. My taking a copy in no way prevents them from selling a copy to someone else
    Except the revenue they lost on the copy you would have normally purchsed.

    Unlike commodities, there is no defined limit to how many copies of software you can sell or distribute. Hence the need for licensing.

    Duh.



    Quote Originally Posted by clkpacker View Post
    --(b) I had no intention nor ability to actually purchase Photoshop. If I didn't pirate Photoshop, I just wouldn't have Photoshop.
    Then don’t steal it. It’s not yours to have, and you are not entitled to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by clkpacker View Post
    And, going back to (a), my having Photoshop in no way hurts Adobe (on the contrary, it may have led to gains for Adobe later on--Photoshop, and many expensive professional tools now give hugely discounted or free student/learner downloads, so that newcomers to the profession learn on that company's tools and thus purchase those tools later).
    The lost out on revenue from your purchase of that single license. That harms Adobe.

    When 10,000 people do it independently, it harms Adobe…a lot.

    It is Adobe’s property, not yours. They can do with it what they wish.

    Quote Originally Posted by clkpacker View Post
    There's no guarantee that people populating this fictitious urDDO would be lost revenue for Turbine.
    No, it is a 100% guarantee with one exception: whomever puts it up pays Turbine to use the code for the server.

    Quote Originally Posted by clkpacker View Post
    The fact that they've gravitated to an old version implies that they've already left the game or are going to soon leave the game because they're unhappy with the changes, regardless of whether urDDO exists or not.
    Once again, it is irrelevant. it is their property. This is why you have to agree to the license restrictions before you can play DDO. That client and the server are Turbine’s P-R-O-P-E-R-T-Y. Not yours. You use it by their permission, which is done by agreeing to the ELUA. End of discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by clkpacker View Post
    There is also no guarantee that these people have spent or will spend more money on DDO should urDDO not exist.
    Their property, their rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by clkpacker View Post
    IP theft is in no way as simple as regular ol' actual-solid-thing theft.
    Tell that to the judge and the lawyers after they get done suing you into oblivion.

    And when the stop laughing, tell me what they said in rebuttal…

  17. #77
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    Just for fun, here is the first paragraph of DDO's EULA.


    1. Limited License. The Game Client is licensed, not sold. Subject to your agreement to and continued compliance with the terms and conditions of this EULA, Turbine hereby grants to you a limited, revocable, non-exclusive license to (a) download and install the Game Client onto a personal computer owned by you, and (b) use a single copy of the Game Client in conjunction with the Game Server for your non-commercial entertainment purposes only. The foregoing license does not permit you to do any of the following, and you agree that the violation of any of the following license limitations will constitute an infringement of Turbine’s copyrights:
      1. You may not sell, license or transfer the Game Client, or any reproductions thereof, to any person or entity;
      2. You may not post information, screen shots or images of the Game to any website or otherwise publicly display game-play elements of the Game;
      3. You may not develop, distribute or host any server or software designed to interact with the Game Client or to redirect or emulate the communications protocols used by Turbine;
      4. You may not modify the Game Client or any portion thereof;
      5. You may not copy, translate, reverse engineer, derive source code from, modify, disassemble, decompile, or create derivative works based on the Game Client or any part thereof;
      6. You may not use any third party program designed to impact the Game experience, including without limitation software bots, cheats, hacks or any other software designed to provide a player with an advantage;
      7. You may not exploit the Game, or any portion thereof, for any commercial purpose;
      8. You may not connect to the Game Server except by using an authorized, unmodified Game Client as set forth herein; or
      9. You may not use the Game Client to connect to any server or service other than the Game Server.
    The problem is never how to get new, innovative thoughts into your mind, but how to get old ones out. Every mind is a building filled with archaic furniture. Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it.
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  18. #78
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zakharov View Post
    This is a major point of debate in society though and while there may be somewhat clear legal definitions of theft your moral statements are not so objective.
    Oh, THAT’S rich!

    Rightful ownership of property – whether intellectual or real – is morality to its core.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zakharov View Post
    What if I had a device that could scan your car in great detail and print a copy of it? I walk by on the street, point it at your driveway, walk home & print out a car for myself. Is that theft?
    Consider the dozens (if not hundreds) of engineers – electrical, mechanical, and software – that went into the development of that car. All of that knowledge put to task so that it meets EPA and safety regulations. And you come along with your magical machine, and put them out of business copying it for “free.”

    Ford, Honda, Toyota, Chrysler, et al would sue you into oblivion; and they’d win. That’s if they don’t contract you to produce their vehicles and do away with their assembly plants (In which case you would have an incentive to make sure you don’t give it away to Joe Average).

    Do you have ANY idea how much money is tied up in patents in the automotive world? It is in the millions, if not billions of dollars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zakharov View Post
    Maybe this is an age/cultural thing. I don't think I've met anyone under 30 who would describe that as theft.
    Being young and/or stupid is nothing to be proud of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zakharov View Post
    Even young musicians I've met would be delighted if people pirated their music. If that represents the zeitgeist of todays youth & tomorrows lawmakers then how can you make such declaratory statements about what is right or wrong, what is theft or not? If society moves far enough in that direction at what point would you revise your opinion?
    Please name these young musicians. I’ll show you people who are looking to live on the edge of starvation for the rest of their life.

    You know, the Soviet Union had a similar zeitgeist, except that everything that was made was available to “the masses.” What you were left with was an entire society where mediocrity was the highest form of achievement, and that eventually crumbled. Because no matter what you did, you would rarely reap the benefits and the rewards for all of your hard work.

    As for those young musicians, we’ll see how long they’ll stay in the groove with their “zeitgeist” when they see someone else making a butt-load of money off of their songs, and they didn’t get squat from it. The short answer is, they’ll be in court suing for money (or they will linger forever in obscurity).

  19. #79
    Community Member Zenmity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    If you take something that does not belong to you, and you take it without permission, you are a thief. The argument you provide against this is mere rationalization. By your own admission, you are a thief. You are also clearly unrepentant.
    Regardless of what you think, and what your gut tells you, you are incorrect in every sense of the word from a legal standpoint. Theft is the deprivation of property and is a criminal offense. Copyright infringement is NOT deprivation of property, and is a civil offense.

    Legally, and even in the common vernacular (as others here have pointed out), you are completely wrong.

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    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenmity View Post
    Regardless of what you think, and what your gut tells you, you are incorrect in every sense of the word from a legal standpoint. Theft is the deprivation of property and is a criminal offense. Copyright infringement is NOT deprivation of property, and is a civil offense.

    Legally, and even in the common vernacular (as others here have pointed out), you are completely wrong.
    By not purchasing a license to legally use the product, that person deprived adobe of monies.

    It is theft. If it was not theft, the IRAA could not be filing criminal charges against those who "share music". When it comes right down to it, it depends upon how much "damage" was done.
    Last edited by Missing_Minds; 07-13-2013 at 12:21 AM.

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