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  1. #21
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Applications like DDO and EQ are server-based, meaning that a majority of the business logic exists on the server somewhere.
    You have no idea how much game logic is client side.... Just to give a hint : Loot generation is handled client side, that's where the loot tables reside.
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  2. #22
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Oh, really?!?

  3. #23
    Community Member grausherra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    1) You will get sued.

    2) The manufacturer changes the client, that emulator becomes invalid.

    3) You'd better put up with stuff on the "server emulator" not working like they intended it to.

    Because of those 3 facts, most server emulators are doomed to fail.

    Console emulators, however, are way more successful mainly because what they emulate is out-of-date technology and therefore will not be changed. A prime example of this is MAME.
    1.) There are literally THOUSANDS of server emulators out there, many going for near a DECADE. You only get sued when you make a business out of it and start profiting based on someone elses work. PRIME EXAMPLE

    2.) You write emulators to work against a particular release client(particular version), often one that shipped on disk. You can find ebay auctions where certain physical media for EQ/WoW will sell for a fair price for this reason, even through it has no keycode to create an account, and the software is severely outdated.

    3.) Depends on the emulator to be honest, so are terrible, some (UO, EQ, and Ragnarok Online emulators in particular) are rock-solid and dependable. There are more people playing those 3 games on private server than on the official ones, and for Ragnarok Online that is true by an entire order of magnitude.

  4. #24
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    1.) There are literally THOUSANDS of server emulators out there, many going for near a DECADE. You only get sued when you make a business out of it and start profiting based on someone elses work. PRIME EXAMPLE
    Wrong, wrong, wrong.

    First, you are infringing on intellectual property rights. Making money or no, you can be sued.

    Second, if the company can show that you are damaging business due to your server, you can and will get sued for that loss. And the bigger the numbers, the faster and more reliably you’ll get sued.

    This, of course, generally only applies to companies where the emulated server was developed and/or resides in the same country. In short: if they can get their paws on you, you will be sued.

    Now, much of this is simplified, as in the States civil suits are handled in the States in which they reside, and the rules thereof depend on state laws concerning property rights and proof of damages. This is the reason why EULAs often have a clause in them that specifies in what state court arrangements must be made. Needless to say, you need to run a pre-existing client to test your server, and that client WILL have an ELUA on it that you need to agree to.

    So, to simplify again, if they can get their mitts on you, and prove that you’ve damaged their company, you will get sued.

    2.) You write emulators to work against a particular release client(particular version), often one that shipped on disk. You can find ebay auctions where certain physical media for EQ/WoW will sell for a fair price for this reason, even through it has no keycode to create an account, and the software is severely outdated.

    Which produces limited returns. Yeah, you can make a wonderful Zork multiplayer server. Someone will play on your server so long as nostalgia takes them, and then moves on. Which is the reason why apps like MAME work. MAME emulates the processor, video, and input devices – which is all documented and not considered proprietary. The ROM images, however, ARE proprietary. If the video game the ROM is from is no longer developed by that company, the odds of you getting sued for using it for your own entertainment is really, really low. It would be very hard for a company to prove that you are damaging their business if they no longer manufacture that game, and you are not selling that ROM for profit.

    However, go after an existing, online game…you’re gonna get sued.

    Plus, obsolete games do not pose a moving target for the emulator manufacturer.

    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    3.) Depends on the emulator to be honest, so are terrible, some (UO, EQ, and Ragnarok Online emulators in particular) are rock-solid and dependable. There are more people playing those 3 games on private server than on the official ones, and for Ragnarok Online that is true by an entire order of magnitude.
    Ok, looking this up…

    Ultima Online, there was a GNU-released version if its server. Not familiar with how this works, but under that agreement, you can spawn any number of UO servers. This is obviously a thin-client application. They have a hard time killing this since they spawned it. Plus Ultima Online is really old.

    Ragnarok Online claims to have 40 million users (yeah, I know about what some people claim). And if you are saying that the emulated servers have an increased number of users by an “order of magnitude,” then you’re probably talking in the hundreds of millions. I kinda doubt that.

    Not sure about the state of EQ, but I’m fairly certain they are using a thick client, and still have an active community.

    Technically what’s being discussed here is hacked versions of games. Mainly because the client and the server have to line-up in order for things to work correctly. Emulators simulate one component on another – so that’s a technical distinction.

    A legal distinction is that people are using either a hacked client or a reversed-engineered server – or both – to play a specific game of which someone else has based their business. This is not only illegal in most cases, it’s not really all that bright of a move. If the people who host and modify these games are more than willing to violate the law for your entertainment, they are most likely willing to create some backdoor access to your system as well.

    Because if they are willing to risk the wrath of a team of corporate lawyers, they’re not really all that concerned about ripping off some sixteen-year old kid who hasn’t got the good sense to come out of the rain.

    In the end, most people will stick with a name brand because they can be trusted to provide an entertainment experience that is absent a lot of the nasty complications that exist when you travel off into the gray areas of computer wizardry. If you are willing to put up with virtually no support, game limitations, and potential security risks then yeah: an emulated server environment is feasible. Most sane people won’t do that.

  5. #25
    Community Member grausherra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    text
    We can take the discussion to PMs if you desire, I don't want to have this thread locked for argumentative behavior.

    That being said, if you are trying to say 'emulators are bad, don't make one, don't trust them' then cool, I agree 100%, and I agree that no one should work on a DDO emulator.

    On the other hand if you are trying to say 'they don't exist, they don't work, they are sued into the ground 100% of the time, and they aren't even relevant to current games' then you are incorrect, on all counts. There are friendly, professional run, safe private servers for most MMOs with a large enough player base to generate the demand, especially those without play-for-free options. And some of the servers have been around for 5+ years, and the server software for 11+ years.

    It is a large enough issue to garner tremendous concern from the gaming industry; some companies seek to stomp them out instantly (Blizzard came down hard to several OwnedCore-based private servers that were monetized, but never bothered the smaller ones running from donations), and they stomped out bnetd as well. SOE has quietly set some rather firm boundaries on what is legal and not legal in their eyes, and this has allowed several emulators to flourish. Gravity (owners of Ragnarok Online) came down hard on the initial emulator project in early 200s, but has since taken no legal action since 2003 relating to private servers, despite Ragnarok Online being their main cash cow.

    All that being said, AOL Time Warner strikes me as a rather litigious-minded company, so I'd steer clear of any DDO private servers :P

  6. #26
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post

    In the end, most people will stick with a name brand because they can be trusted to provide an entertainment experience that is absent a lot of the nasty complications that exist when you travel off into the gray areas of computer wizardry. If you are willing to put up with virtually no support, game limitations, and potential security risks then yeah: an emulated server environment is feasible. Most sane people won’t do that.
    Yup because Turbine is trustworth, has a secure forum, has never charged people hundreds of times for a monthly sub, has great customer support, do I really need to go on?

    I agree it probably won't happen for ddo and probably shouldn't but you can't say turbine is much better.

  7. #27
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Oh, really?!?
    If you know where to look ( Hint : Cesspool ) and what to look for you'll have plenty of information, like for example loot generation table for Raid Chests.
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  8. #28
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    We can take the discussion to PMs if you desire, I don't want to have this thread locked for argumentative behavior.
    No, out here in public is fine.

    First and foremost, the position I take is 100% in support of Turbine, and their intellectual property right. If they want to lock this because I am taking a stance that is both legal and correct, that’s fine. I kinda doubt it.

    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    On the other hand if you are trying to say 'they don't exist, they don't work, they are sued into the ground 100% of the time, and they aren't even relevant to current games' then you are incorrect, on all counts. There are friendly, professional run, safe private servers for most MMOs with a large enough player base to generate the demand, especially those without play-for-free options. And some of the servers have been around for 5+ years, and the server software for 11+ years.
    First, if they are using hacked software, or creating a system that bypasses the proper operation of licensed software, the people that host this are neither friendly or professional. Nor should they be considered safe. They a criminals. Period.

    You sleep with dogs, don’t be surprised if you wake up with fleas. Pretty simple.

    Secondly, there is an issue with the word “emulator.” If you are simply mimicking a server’s responses to data queries, then yes you are correct: these are emulators. However, if the client-side of the equation has to be modified in one form or another, then you are not emulating anything. You are running a closed, customized system. That’s a technical distinction.

    Another technical distinction is that an emulator isn’t actual functioning code. It is all simulated.

    I deal with emulators – real emulators – all of the time. I don’t modify my interactive code to suit the entity that serves it data (unless I’m in the process of developing that code for the first time). If the client-side is “frozen” – meaning no modifications need to be done to access the server side – then indeed, your server is an “emulator.”

    Maybe I’m just being picky about the term “emulator”…

    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    It is a large enough issue to garner tremendous concern from the gaming industry; some companies seek to stomp them out instantly (Blizzard came down hard to several OwnedCore-based private servers that were monetized, but never bothered the smaller ones running from donations), and they stomped out bnetd as well. SOE has quietly set some rather firm boundaries on what is legal and not legal in their eyes, and this has allowed several emulators to flourish. Gravity (owners of Ragnarok Online) came down hard on the initial emulator project in early 200s, but has since taken no legal action since 2003 relating to private servers, despite Ragnarok Online being their main cash cow.
    You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how licensing and intellectual property rights work.

    First, if I write a piece of software in the US, and distribute it world-wide, the only place my software is actually only protected by law is the US. Now, there are other countries with whom the US has specific treaties that cover the protection of property rights, but to have those rights enforced, I would have to take legal action against the offending entities in the country where the infringement occurred (this may be subject to various legal interpretations). So, again, this emphasizes the point where I made that the maker of the intellectual property has to first “get their paws on you” to sue you.

    The second point is that the manufacturer has to decide whether it is worth their time to go to litigation. That is a judgment call on their end.

    The third point is that there are many countries in the world that will either protect people who infringe on intellectual property rights, actively participate in this trade, or make it extremely difficult to cull the growth of this practice.

    But because the people that host a private server haven’t been sued or shut down by the person who created the software, this is not a green light to tell you playing on that server is fine and dandy. You’re still infringing on the intellectual rights of the people who own the software in the first place. This is the reason why people got nailed with that whole Napster thing years ago with file-sharing sites. That music was protected intellectual property. People possessing the music were committing a crime for even possessing the MP3s.

    Furthermore, the legal structure under which these “private servers” change if the server itself has the permission of the entity that owns the software to use their intellectual property. In that regard, you end up becoming something similar to a franchisee for that entity. In short, you are part of the company that handles a specific set of clientele, and therefore not “private.” And, unless the people who make something like the games you describe are of the generous sort, the person running the server pays a fee to use their intellectual property.

    Otherwise, they are criminals by pretty much every definition of the term.

    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    All that being said, AOL Time Warner strikes me as a rather litigious-minded company, so I'd steer clear of any DDO private servers :P
    Yeah. That’s pretty good advice.

  9. #29
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Yup because Turbine is trustworth, has a secure forum, has never charged people hundreds of times for a monthly sub, has great customer support, do I really need to go on?

    I agree it probably won't happen for ddo and probably shouldn't but you can't say turbine is much better.
    There is a fundamental difference between incompentence and criminal activity.

    Not that the results aren’t the same, but the difference in the driver. One is cutting off your nose to spite your face, the other is cutting off the nose of someone else out of spite.

    You can determine just how much of a nose Turbine has left…

    (Now this kind of talk WILL get this thread locked. :P)

  10. #30
    Community Member grausherra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Secondly, there is an issue with the word “emulator.” If you are simply mimicking a server’s responses to data queries, then yes you are correct: these are emulators. However, if the client-side of the equation has to be modified in one form or another, then you are not emulating anything. You are running a closed, customized system. That’s a technical distinction.
    Connecting a client to a private server can easily be accomplished by an entry into windows hosts.txt file, not a single client modification necessary.


    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how licensing and intellectual property rights work.

    First, if I write a piece of software in the US, and distribute it world-wide, the only place my software is actually only protected by law is the US. Now, there are other countries with whom the US has specific treaties that cover the protection of property rights, but to have those rights enforced, I would have to take legal action against the offending entities in the country where the infringement occurred (this may be subject to various legal interpretations). So, again, this emphasizes the point where I made that the maker of the intellectual property has to first “get their paws on you” to sue you.

    The second point is that the manufacturer has to decide whether it is worth their time to go to litigation. That is a judgment call on their end.

    The third point is that there are many countries in the world that will either protect people who infringe on intellectual property rights, actively participate in this trade, or make it extremely difficult to cull the growth of this practice.

    But because the people that host a private server haven’t been sued or shut down by the person who created the software, this is not a green light to tell you playing on that server is fine and dandy. You’re still infringing on the intellectual rights of the people who own the software in the first place. This is the reason why people got nailed with that whole Napster thing years ago with file-sharing sites. That music was protected intellectual property. People possessing the music were committing a crime for even possessing the MP3s.

    Furthermore, the legal structure under which these “private servers” change if the server itself has the permission of the entity that owns the software to use their intellectual property. In that regard, you end up becoming something similar to a franchisee for that entity. In short, you are part of the company that handles a specific set of clientele, and therefore not “private.” And, unless the people who make something like the games you describe are of the generous sort, the person running the server pays a fee to use their intellectual property.
    I'm not arguing that these private servers are 'legal', a point you seem to have missed. All I am arguing is that THEY EXIST, that is all, and that there are many companies who do not prosecute them. if you look back to the beginning of our conversation that is all I pointed out. Questions of legality of such things are a question best saved for lawyers, not internet forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    First, if they are using hacked software, or creating a system that bypasses the proper operation of licensed software, the people that host this are neither friendly or professional. Nor should they be considered safe. They a criminals. Period.

    ...
    Otherwise, they are criminals by pretty much every definition of the term.
    Your decision to classify all people who violate a copyright as hardened criminals ready to steal your identity, hack you, and commit other nefarious acts is laudable, but fairly unrealistic. I speed, yet I don't eat babies, murder, or attempt to ruin peoples lives. Fortunately the world isn't split into 2 groups of people - perfectly good law abiding and pure evil lawbreakers.

    There are friendly criminals in the world. There are professional criminals in the world. There are even, *gasp*, good criminals in the world (unless you define 'good' as necessarily law-abiding). Some perfectly 'good' people speed, or commit any number of minor offenses, and are still fine people.

    Most of the people running these server emulators are fans of the game, and often trying to recapture a forgotten era of the game (pre-wrath WoW, pre-trammel UO, pre-NGE SWG); they are not a nefarious criminal organization creating massive private server farms to prey on unsuspecting gamers.

    The original poster is a great example of this; he wants DDO with a D20 system; this is exactly what draws people to create and host these emulated servers.
    Last edited by grausherra; 07-09-2013 at 01:21 PM.

  11. #31
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    Connecting a client to a private server can easily be accomplished by an entry into windows hosts.txt file, not a single client modification necessary.
    You literally have no frickin’ clue as to what I’m talking about when it comes to the definition of an “emulator”, “thick-client”, “thin-client” and so on. Let’s leave it at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    I'm not arguing that these private servers are 'legal', a point you seem to have missed. All I am arguing is that THEY EXIST, that is all, and that there are many companies who do not prosecute them. if you look back to the beginning of our conversation that is all I pointed out. Questions of legality of such things are a question best saved for lawyers, not internet forums.
    Once again, whether a company chooses to prosecute a private MMO server or not is separate from your decision to play on them. Just because a company does not prosecute someone from violating intellectual property rights because it costs too much to do so (and thereby take a loss to preserve the integrity of their property) or because they cannot doesn’t give ANY sort of respectability to the people operating these systems. It also does not give you or anyone else a free pass to use them. It is illegal. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    Your decision to classify all people who violate a copyright as hardened criminals ready to steal your identity, hack you, and commit other nefarious acts is laudable, but fairly unrealistic. I speed, yet I don't eat babies, murder, or attempt to ruin peoples lives. Fortunately the world isn't split into 2 groups of people - perfectly good law abiding and pure evil lawbreakers.

    There are friendly criminals in the world. There are professional criminals in the world. There are even, *gasp*, good criminals in the world (unless you define 'good' as necessarily law-abiding). Some perfectly 'good' people speed, or commit any number of minor offenses, and are still fine people.

    Most of the people running these server emulators are fans of the game, and often trying to recapture a forgotten era of the game (pre-wrath WoW, pre-trammel UO, pre-NGE SWG); they are not a nefarious criminal organization creating massive private server farms to prey on unsuspecting gamers.

    The original poster is a great example of this; he wants DDO with a D20 system; this is exactly what draws people to create and host these emulated servers.
    And here is where we get to the crux of the problem. Yes, if you play on these private servers, you are stealing.

    I am a software developer. Whatever I write, the company who employs sells. As compensation for my work, they pay me a salary from the revenue they generate from sales of the code I produced. Depending on what I negotiate for my salary, I may get a bonus off of sales and/or revenue. This is actually not an uncommon practice nowadays.

    When someone comes along, reverse-engineers my code (because they are useless dolts who cannot come up with an original idea by themselves, never mind have the intestinal fortitude to try and make a buck off of their ideas) that comes out of the company’s sales / revenue, which directly impacts my salary and bonus. That’s money for the clothes on my kids’ backs, the shoes on their feet, food in their bellies, the roof over the heads of my family, and so on. It’s not like I’m a rock star living in a mansion where I can take a small revenue hit here and there. I make a really good living. Given my skills, I can make a really good living in virtually any company. However, not every software developer makes the kind of money I make, nor has he opportunities open to me. And yeah, I care what happens to people who work in my profession. When you go on these “private servers” you’re basically stealing as much from them, as you do from me – perhaps even moreso because they cannot take the kinds of hits I can in their careers.

    So don’t tell me that there are levels of criminality when it comes to this kind of stuff, and that this is pretty low on the scale. I’m fairly sure you would be none too pleased if I came into YOUR home, took what I felt I was entitled to take, and then lectured you about how it was no big deal, and that how I’m actually a swell guy despite what I was doing. It is a big deal. It’s stealing. Period.

    You weren’t there paying my mortgage when I was making about 7 times less than what I make now. You weren’t paying for my medical bills when I had cancer, and worked through my treatment. You weren’t the one giving me a job when I was unemployed during a recession. You weren’t there as I was working 28-hours getting some line up and working so that people could do their jobs and ALSO get paid. You don’t deserve the fruits of my labor without paying for it. Spare me the justifications because they are complete and total BS.

  12. #32
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    And here is where we get to the crux of the problem. Yes, if you play on these private servers, you are stealing.

    I am a software developer. Whatever I write, the company who employs sells. As compensation for my work, they pay me a salary from the revenue they generate from sales of the code I produced. Depending on what I negotiate for my salary, I may get a bonus off of sales and/or revenue. This is actually not an uncommon practice nowadays.
    Here's an interesting moral side track that sort of relates as some emulators like the one for swg are for games that are no longer supported by the manufacturer and you can not buy anymore. The sharing ext of these programs is still technically illegal as I would assume is the emulator on a technical standpoint because the copyright/patent for this kind of stuff lasts for 70 years if I remember right. So as a moral side track is it immoral in your view if the company won't sell it anymore?

  13. #33
    Community Member grausherra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    You literally have no frickin’ clue as to what I’m talking about when it comes to the definition of an “emulator”, “thick-client”, “thin-client” and so on. Let’s leave it at that.
    I just assumed you were using those terms in an industry standard way.

    If you define 'emulator' to be software that emulates a particular chipset/instruction set/architecture (as in MAME or NES emulators, or any of the sort) then you have too narrow a definition. Any piece of software which emulates the function of another piece of software, is by definition an emulator. Sorry, that is english, and it is common usage, you can't make up your own. Programs which emulate the function of a true game server are referred to as 'server emulators' by the community who write them.

    Also, all MMO clients(without single player support) are by definition thin clients, if you believe otherwise you are entirely crazy. The client is never trusted with anything important nowadays, and it has been this way since 1997 when some of the first mainstream MMOs hit the market.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    ...bunch of text....
    This is all opinion; in no way objective. The fact that you don't like people who pirate software is very obvious, and I'm not arguing that you should. I'm saying that you presented your viewpoint as FACT, which it isn't.

    Just because someone runs a server emulator does not mean they are a horrible person who will steal your identity, hack you, and murder you if given a chance.

    Period.

    It means they are the sort of person who is fine stealing someone else IP to put up a game server. They are likely the sort of person who is ok with music and movie piracy too.

    But being a software/music/movie pirate does not make you an identity thief, a murderer, a baby eater, or completely untrustworthy in any context. It makes you untrustworthy with people's IP, which should be a pretty obvious assessment to be honest.
    Last edited by grausherra; 07-09-2013 at 05:04 PM. Reason: i meant 1997

  14. #34
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Here's an interesting moral side track that sort of relates as some emulators like the one for swg are for games that are no longer supported by the manufacturer and you can not buy anymore. The sharing ext of these programs is still technically illegal as I would assume is the emulator on a technical standpoint because the copyright/patent for this kind of stuff lasts for 70 years if I remember right. So as a moral side track is it immoral in your view if the company won't sell it anymore?
    One of my Wall-o-text’s already addressed that. A grand example is MAME, where they emulate the processor and circuitry of an arcade video game, but you must obtain the ROM image on your own. Re-creating the videogame “circuits” as a computer application is, in itself, not illegal per se (there are notable exceptions to this). Distributing the ROMS – intellectual property – is.

    If you have purchased the ROM either first-hand, or stripped the code from a machine you have, re-using it personally is not illegal. You already “own” the content (for lack of a better word), and the people you got it from received payment. Once you try to distribute it without permission is where you cross the line. The people who produced the code have a right to compensation for their work.

    And for something that is clearly defunct and dead – the Zork example I kinda used (although there are some ZORK sites out there) – it is highly unlikely that anyone will be coming around asking for payment. However, the name is usually trademarked, and if you are using original code without permission, you can get nailed.

    Completely reverse engineering something without “hacking” licensed content is a gray area. How many Pac Man clones have you seen out there since the invention of Pac Man? They play like Pac Man, look an awful lot like Pac Man, but you’d better not call them “Pac Man” or you’ll undoubtedly get sued. In the height of Pac Man mania, if you sold a clone game that looked or played too much like Pac Man, the creator of the game would have shown up with a cadre of lawyers, and taken you for everything you had (and then some). Now, when Pac Man is basically immortalized? I seriously doubt that if you made something similar to Pac Man you’d have the same problem.

    Still Namco (I think is the original producer) owns the rights to the Pac Man game. Whomever owns them now owns the rights to that game. You make something big enough, and popular enough that matches their game very closely you’ll hear from them.

    What is outright stealing is the example of Ragnarok Online. It is an active game with active members. You can whine and moan all you’d like about what they’ve done to the game, but starting your own server that calls itself by the same name as the game, without permission, is blatantly illegal. Defining it as a “private” server doesn’t mean squat.

    The only way it wouldn’t be illegal is if that leaked code got to one person, who made a server form themselves, and they were the only person using that server. It then becomes hard to show damages. The minute you open that up to the world at large, it becomes real easy.

    Mind you, the concept of “damages” I’m using applies to the US.

  15. #35
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    I just assumed you were using those terms in an industry standard way.

    If you define 'emulator' to be software that emulates a particular chipset/instruction set/architecture (as in MAME or NES emulators, or any of the sort) then you have too narrow a definition. Any piece of software which emulates the function of another piece of software, is by definition an emulator. Sorry, that is english, and it is common usage, you can't make up your own. Programs which emulate the function of a true game server are referred to as 'server emulators' by the community who write them.

    Also, all MMO clients(without single player support) are by definition thin clients, if you believe otherwise you are entirely crazy. The client is never trusted with anything important nowadays, and it has been this way since 1997 when some of the first mainstream MMOs hit the market.
    Again, it is clear you have no frickin’ clue as to the terms I am using.

    If you have two pieces that you are “emulating” – like a thick-client and a server – then you are emulating nothing. You’ve developed a closed system.

    Furthermore, and emulator - in broad, general terms – is not an active system. I used to use lots of vehicle module emulators when I did automotive work. The simulated the responses of a vehicle computer on the vehicle’s network. If I sent a command to the emulator, it gave me a (allegedly) proper response. It did not, however, do much of anything. Mainly because it wasn’t connected to a vehicle.

    Sit that emulator in a vehicle, and sell the vehicle, it stops becoming an emulator because it doesn’t “copy” anything. It is an integral part of a production system.

    Likewise, a circuit emulator does not actually changed voltages on a circuit board. It simulates the response of the circuit.

    If you have a server that is actually doing something as it relates to a game and maintain player data, that’s not an emulator. That’s a copied server.



    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    This is all opinion; in no way objective. The fact that you don't like people who pirate software is very obvious, and I'm not arguing that you should. I'm saying that you presented your viewpoint as FACT, which it isn't.

    Just because someone runs a server emulator does not mean they are a horrible person who will steal your identity, hack you, and murder you if given a chance.
    Yes, it makes them a horrible person. They are stealing code, and distributing it, and cutting the people who developed the code in the first place out of the revenue and profits.

    You can pat yourself on the back all you’d like about how, maybe, you’re not hurting anyone by stealing the fruits of someone else’s labor, but the reality is you are still a thief.

    Thieves are bad people.

    Especially the ones who do it for their own selfish entertainment.

    Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    It means they are the sort of person who is fine stealing someone else IP to put up a game server. They are likely the sort of person who is ok with music and movie piracy too.
    Which also makes them a thief.

    Your point being?

    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    But being a software/music/movie pirate does not make you an identity thief, a murderer, a baby eater, or completely untrustworthy in any context. It makes you untrustworthy with people's IP, which should be a pretty obvious assessment to be honest.
    No, but it makes you a thief. And you can go to jail for being a thief. Eating babies is just icing on the cake.

    You are not scoring any points here. The only thing you are doing is looking more and more like a reprehensible person. You can stop digging that hole now…

  16. #36
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Thieves are bad people.
    Robin Hood

    Sorry I had to.

  17. #37
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Oh, and as a clarification:
    Quote Originally Posted by grausherra View Post
    Also, all MMO clients(without single player support) are by definition thin clients, if you believe otherwise you are entirely crazy. The client is never trusted with anything important nowadays, and it has been this way since 1997 when some of the first mainstream MMOs hit the market.
    Thin-client and thick-client have relative meanings.

    DDO is “thick-client.” Business logic (as someone pointed out) and a large chunk of code exists on the client machine.

    Some of these other browser-based games would be considered “thin-client.” This is similar to the old mainframes of old that used terminal emulators. The only thing you saw were the screens on a computer terminal which only handled video display and keyboard input – no business logic involved.

    From what I’ve seen, the discussion of things like WoW, DDO, and a few others worked with thick-clients, and servers. Ragnarok, since it is browser-based, is considered “thin-client.” If all you are doing is providing a server for Ragnarok, or even the other thick-client apps I described above, then yes you are brushing up against the proper concept of an emulator.

    If you have to modify BOTH sides of the pipe, you are no longer emulating anything.

    Of course, something labeled as production and maintains business data would no longer be considered an “emulator” as it copies nothing…it is its own running entity.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Robin Hood

    Sorry I had to.
    Fair assessment.

    However, wealthy and needy are sometimes relative terms. And I also believe Robin Hood was a myth.

    There are lots of people who like to claim the mantle of Robin Hood. Unfortunately, when they rob from the rich, the often consider themselves the poorest people around, and give mostly to themselves.

    Which might have a lot to do why Robin Hood is still a myth...

  19. #39
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Fair assessment.

    However, wealthy and needy are sometimes relative terms. And I also believe Robin Hood was a myth.

    There are lots of people who like to claim the mantle of Robin Hood. Unfortunately, when they rob from the rich, the often consider themselves the poorest people around, and give mostly to themselves.

    Which might have a lot to do why Robin Hood is still a myth...
    I watched a documentary the other week on Robin Hood the other week. Seems like the most likely option was that the character is a myth based upon the actions of a few possible historical people.

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    It might be worth pointing out that the software industry in general is replete with IP theft, replete with patent trolls, invalid & duplicative patents that only an idiot would grant, IP shakedowns that stifle innovation, shady business dealings, etc et al ad infinitum. Companies break IP laws with regularity that never get called on, and for most, it's not worth it to pay attorneys to fight every tiny infraction in a digital world.

    Everyone commits 3 felonies per day.

    I'm not clear about AOL/Time Warner's desire for litigation, since the most notorious company for litigation involving IP is Disney, who's also the same company responsible for the ridiculous modifications to copyright law to protect Mickey. You'd be much better off waiting until DDO nears its end of days, put together a group to buy the source, then Open Source it.

    But, it's also clear, that from a general public standpoint and the recent new Xbox debacle and retrenchment, that the public in no way buys the more exhaustive claims of IP proponents that their rights exist into infinite time and space.

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