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Thread: Stunning Fist

  1. #1
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    Default Stunning Fist

    It seems that until they remove the weapon restriction on Stunning Fist... You'll just not see a monk (unless it is a splash) using weapons.

    Short sword use! Oh yeah! I can go from 8(D6) to 2d10!!!! Sure my crit goes from 19-20 to 17-20. However without the 50% (Or 80% if you're LD) damage boost of a stunning fist, and losing death touch, and paralyzing touch, and unbalancing strikes.

    So, lets see, I lose > 50% damage, I lose sneak attack, and I lose death touch.

    Yeah, why would any monk ever use a weapon... Ever ever ever?

    What if I'm fighting something I can't stun/sneak/death touch? Like undead? Zombies? Before vorpal strikes, when a slasher would be nice?

    I think if they removed the handwrap/empty hand restriction on stunning fist, you would see monks more likely to branch out, and maybe use those Ninja skills.

    In the Lamina preview, they add 30% stun damage to the Ninja tree... So, it's even less attractive to use weapons. I guess it's just there as flavor. Nothing more. Of course currently poison application doesn't work with Vorpal Strikes, (even if it says it should).
    Last edited by 350zguy; 07-05-2013 at 04:14 PM.

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by 350zguy View Post
    It seems that until they remove the weapon restriction on Stunning Fist... You'll just not see a monk (unless it is a splash) using weapons.

    Short sword use! Oh yeah! I can go from 8(D6) to 2d10!!!! Sure my crit goes from 19-20 to 17-20. However without the 50% (Or 80% if you're LD) damage boost of a stunning fist, and losing death touch, and paralyzing touch, and unbalancing strikes.

    So, lets see, I lose > 50% damage, I lose sneak attack, and I lose death touch.

    Yeah, why would any monk ever use a weapon... Ever ever ever?

    What if I'm fighting something I can't stun/sneak/death touch? Like undead? Zombies? Before vorpal strikes, when a slasher would be nice?

    I think if they removed the handwrap/empty hand restriction on stunning fist, you would see monks more likely to branch out, and maybe use those Ninja skills.

    In the Lamina preview, they add 30% stun damage to the Ninja tree... So, it's even less attractive to use weapons. I guess it's just there as flavor. Nothing more. Of course currently poison application doesn't work with Vorpal Strikes, (even if it says it should).
    Hey.

    It's why they call it Stunning Fist, not Stunning Blow, which does the same thing but works with weapons and uses STR as a modifier. This is the single feat common found in all the most popular D&D games (Neverwinter Nights I, II, and DDO) as well as the pen-and-paper implementation, so I doubt it will get such a change.

    There's nothing stopping any Monk from taking Stunning Blow to add to their stunning chances, especially if a damage-dealer with higher STR.

    The primary reason for unarmed fighting is that (1) you fight 7-12% faster as a Monk than with any weapon, as this is their forte, and (2) many of the class's special abilities use a WIS modifier, allowing you to pump up WIS for many abilities.

    As you likely know, it's important, especially if not a Shintao, to have some slashing weapons, like kamas, handy for the pesky zombies at low levels. As you get stronger and receive banishers and disruption handwraps, this is less of a problem. Shortswords are better than nothing when you're a Ninja and have limited unarmed DR breaking since these weapons are easy to find. They are piercing, but they work for some battles.

    If you're a Ninja Spy, your skill is killing the living, not the unliving (as Shintao does). You can't have it both ways but you can be competent enough against the enemies of which your build isn't savvy in killing.
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  3. #3
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Stunning fist aside, it would be nice if they allowed touch of death to work with ki weapons. I know lots of people always imagine monks kung-fu fighting, but i tend to think of ninjas actually being more focused on weapon use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    Hey.

    It's why they call it Stunning Fist, not Stunning Blow, which does the same thing but works with weapons and uses STR as a modifier. This is the single feat common found in all the most popular D&D games (Neverwinter Nights I, II, and DDO) as well as the pen-and-paper implementation, so I doubt it will get such a change.
    Me too. So why in the name of all that's holy have they put all those stupid weapon enhancements in the Monk trees for the pass?[*] If you're not using your Monk abilities, you're just a gimp fighter in pyjamas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    There's nothing stopping any Monk from taking Stunning Blow to add to their stunning chances, especially if a damage-dealer with higher STR.
    You mean apart from the fact that as a pure Monk it's nearly impossible get your SB DC high enough to matter in tougher content? Or the fact that while it's a nice secondary stun for high-Str classes, the 15-second cooldown vs. 6-second lockdown makes it vastly inferior?

    No, you're right, these things don't stop a pure Monk taking Stunning Blow, they just mean you're an idiot who likes to waste feats. Or never plays above EHard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    The primary reason for unarmed fighting is that (1) you fight 7-12% faster as a Monk than with any weapon, as this is their forte, and (2) many of the class's special abilities use a WIS modifier, allowing you to pump up WIS for many abilities.
    What? One minute you're suggesting adding Stunning Blow so you can stun with weapons- therefore by implication pumping Strength (which will have to come at a cost to Wis) - the next you're talking about pumping Wis for "many abilities", almost none of which work with weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    As you likely know, it's important, especially if not a Shintao, to have some slashing weapons, like kamas, handy for the pesky zombies at low levels.
    No. It isn't. It's not remotely important. I've capped eight monks, soloing elite for the entirety of heroic levels on some of them, and never bothered with kamas. Kamas suck, unless you're a Monk-splashed Druid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    As you get stronger and receive banishers and disruption handwraps, this is less of a problem. Shortswords are better than nothing when you're a Ninja and have limited unarmed DR breaking since these weapons are easy to find. They are piercing, but they work for some battles.
    There are some nice shortswords, but you are almost always better off with wraps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    If you're a Ninja Spy, your skill is killing the living, not the unliving (as Shintao does).
    Again... what? Yes, you're good at killing the living, and the primary reason you are better at that than a Shintao is that you have TOUCH OF DEATH, WHICH DOES NOT WORK WITH WEAPONS. Hello?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    You can't have it both ways but you can be competent enough against the enemies of which your build isn't savvy in killing.
    Unless you use shortswords, in which case you can be equally incompetent against every enemy you ever fight, because by the time DR is high enough to matter you're doing several times as much damage with your fists. Stunning Fist, Touch of Death, Quivering Palm and all their kin: these are the things that make a Monk.

    In all those words, the one relevant thing you said in response to the OP - who has a good point - was that you doubt it will change. I doubt it too, but I wish it weren't so. It *would* be fun and interesting to build a Monk toon who could be something other than a waste of pixels when using weapons. I've even built a Monk/Kensai/Pally with Whirling Steel Strike and rocking a pair of Oathblades (yeah, I know) to see if I could make a fun concept worth the time, but it just isn't.

    [*] My theory: because they can't or won't fix handwraps with Legendary Dreadnought, and are therefore trying to make weapons more attractive so we forget about it. The net result will be that Monk becomes an even better splash than it is right now, and pure Monks will STILL suck unless they use handwraps.
    Last edited by Pooklebunny; 07-10-2013 at 05:24 PM.
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