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  1. #81
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    And the Enhancement that is a prerequisite for it requires Greater Weapon Focus, which requires 8 levels in Fighter.
    Ah now it makes sense. Forgot about the feat req for that, tx for clearing it up.

  2. #82
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Interesting, looks like I was right the first time then. I'm not sure how they could nerf it looking at it, seems like all they could do to nerf it is remove it but I've been wrong and surprised before.
    Well I expect the 5 class levels for tier 5 to be axed as a "last minute balancing decision" when they tweak the AP costs of stuff downward some more. I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with 10 to 15 class levels required for a tier 5.

    Hypothetically:
    For starters they could go: Grandmaster Monk stances: level 12 required as they are on live (ultimate stances or the equivalent at 18 as per live)
    Plus maybe: level 12 fighter required for Kensei 5th tier. That mean no +1 crit range from tier 5 Kensei or no + crit multiplier from GM earth stance. Which is the heart of the synergy. Boosting an already nuts Crit profile like Sword of Shadows (and many other nice weapons I might add, that are much easier to get, before anyone says "well who cares most people don't have an eSoS, yeah but anyone can get a Deathnip, or a Drow greataxe, Scimmy or Khopesh).
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 07-06-2013 at 03:38 PM.

  3. #83
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Overall, I think the enhancement pass is what is: a drastic change. For some it's full of posatives, for others it's full of negatives. There is no absolute in either direction.

    This combination of threads, the "Nerfs and the Buffs" is probably only serving to ignite fires and conflict among the players, as the devs are likely getting most if not all there info for potential changes from the Lama forums & surveys. We saw some significant changes from alpha to bata; and I suspect it's still entirely too soon to say how this will end up in it's final implementation.

    While the pass will undoubtedly brake some builds, it won't brake the game - at least in terms of playability. If it drives away too large a slice of the population, that could be a problem; unless it's goal of making it (character generation) more friendly to new players and the retention of them works to off-set the loss or generates a net increase.

    I've seen many changes come and go, always accompanied by "this sucks & I'm out!" Some of players who say that actually leave, most stay anyways.

    When the pass hits, we'll make the best of it, embracing whatever new possibilities arise (IMO the best thing about the pass is new build possibilities) and quickly forget the lost ones as we always have.

    Personally, making new build ideas is what I like best about D&D and DDO both, so while this shake up does invalidate much of what I've done so far, it opens up as many doors as it closes, and to me at least, that's the buff that matters most.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    When the pass hits, we'll make the best of it, embracing whatever new possibilities arise (IMO the best thing about the pass is new build possibilities) and quickly forget the lost ones as we always have.

    Personally, making new build ideas is what I like best about D&D and DDO both, so while this shake up does invalidate much of what I've done so far, it opens up as many doors as it closes, and to me at least, that's the buff that matters most.
    In general, I agree with this. There have been many changes that really reshape the way that the game is played. It wasn't that many years ago that Casters were nothing but Haste bots for the party's melee!

    But while I do love exploring new design options, when the answer to the question "How do I best build my Favored Soul?" is "TR to Cleric so I can get the new Disciple spells, they are better than anything that Angle of Vengeance or Favored Soul as a core class have to offer." there is something really wrong. Similarly, it is hard to see much reason to keep any Sorcerers. Just like the Epic Destinies, these Enhancement Trees seem to have ended up being in wildly different realms of power from each other, to the point that entire classes have kind of become invalidated because of their Trees. And while there is that glimmer of hope, saying "Well they aren't live yet. Things might get better!"..... Look at the current state of Epic Destinies. It is really hard to have faith that things will be improved terribly much before they are released, and after they are released I expect that they will get about as much support in the form of fixing Trees that don't work as Epic Destinies have gotten. Which is to say none.
    Last edited by ForumAccess; 07-06-2013 at 04:02 PM.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Well I expect the 5 class levels for tier 5 to be axed as a "last minute balancing decision" when they tweak the AP costs of stuff downward some more. I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with 10 to 15 class levels required for a tier 5.

    Hypothetically:
    For starters they could go: Grandmaster Monk stances: level 12 required as they are on live (ultimate stances or the equivalent at 18 as per live)
    Plus maybe: level 12 fighter required for Kensei 5th tier. That mean no +1 crit range from tier 5 Kensei or no + crit multiplier from GM earth stance. Which is the heart of the synergy. Boosting an already nuts Crit profile like Sword of Shadows (and many other nice weapons I might add, that are much easier to get, before anyone says "well who cares most people don't have an eSoS, yeah but anyone can get a Deathnip, or a Drow greataxe, Scimmy or Khopesh).
    Even if the tier Vs require 12 Levels of one class, Monk stances can now be bought as Feats, so 2 lvls of monk will also allow you to get to Tier III or IV Monk stances.
    What do fighters and monks get, that's right bonus feats so lets take a theoretical 12fighter/6ranger/2mnk build for centred khopeshes then. That's 7 heroic feats, 7 bonus fighter feats, 2 bonus monk feats, autogranted TWF, ITWF, Manyshot and some other ranged goodies. I don't see feats being an issue for hitting the requirements for A. Centred with any Weap, B. Grandmaster Stances and C. Overwhelming Critical.
    You can take the ranger out and still hit the necessary feats and if Earth Stance 3 (Increased crit Multi on 19 - 20) is your target then don't even need to go to grandmaster stance, can stop at master.

    But what makes these centred builds appealing isn't just that you can stay centred, it's that you can stay centred and as a THF net the full defensive benefits of Defensive strikes......... so ditch the centred with Khopeshes Idea, roll up a Dwarf with Greataxes and go to town.
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  6. #86
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    There's entirely too much truth in ^that^ statement. On nearly every occasion I see the term "useless" applied to something related to the enhancement pass, it's used in place of "less effective than now." For example Lore items: somehow reduced functionality (which I'm not fond of, btw) has made them "useless" as if +3% crit chance = +0% crit chance. Now, I'm no math expert, but I find 3%>0%, so Lore -while less effective- is not useless...
    Just want to point out that something that sits in your bank instead of being used, is in fact, useless. Since lore items will have their effect reduced by more than 70%, they pretty much become inferior to many other options competing for the gear slot.

    Imagine if greataxes had their damage dice reduced to 1d4. Not useless, as it's more than 0. Except that noone would use them.

  7. #87
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    I have two main toons I like to play: my water savant sorc, and my evoker fvs. I have spent years playing them and gearing them up. This thread about buffs has left me quite disappointed. My sorc's spell power and crit damage are being slashed and my fvs is losing 25 to 35 hit points. How are these buffs, and honestly why should I even keep playing if they are just going to nullify all my work because my toons are "too good"?

    The idea that they will change anything at this point is ludicrous. They don't even have the bandwidth to fix the visible helm problems. The one guy with any time on his hands is busy nerfing secret door detection -quite possibly the one flawless system left in the game. I personally think turbine is taking a foolish risk forcing a huge redesign of basic character building. They should have put a good interface on the system they have and gone from there.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    ...when the answer to the question "How do I best build my Favored Soul?" is "TR to Cleric so I can get the new Disciple spells, they are better than anything that Angle of Vengeance or Favored Soul as a core class have to offer." there is something really wrong.
    Isn't that just a pendulum swing from the current "best way to improve your cleric is to TR into a Favored Soul?" that I so commonly see in the forums under the current system?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    And while there is that glimmer of hope, saying "Well they aren't live yet. Things might get better!"..... Look at the current state of Epic Destinies. It is really hard to have faith that things will be improved terribly much before they are released...
    Isn't that exactly what people said about the enhancement pass in it's alpha state? "Point costs are so prohibitively high! Only 3 class trees!? That's a huge nerf to multi-classing, and you know nothing ever changes much from Lama to live." Yet in the bata we have reduced point costs and 6 class trees... Not sure what the term is for "next after bata" or for that matter if there will be one; but I do see not just the hope for more changes, but rather a solid potential.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  9. #89
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 350zguy View Post
    Pure Wizzy:
    86 --> 174+
    220 --> 208-
    148 --> 196+
    208 --> 196-
    126 --> 174+
    86 --> 174+
    198 --> 217+
    86 --> 158+
    86 --> 174+
    126 -->151+
    -----------
    1370 --> 1822
    Live --> Lam

    Your overall spellpower is irrelevant your NOT going to use all those elements so elements you never used anyways getting boosted does nothing...all I see is your main elements taking a hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    Total spell power across all schools is a terrible measure. Does your PM cast any light spells or positive energy spells, for example?

    And it looks like (before spending skill points), that your highest spell power values went down. That is the complaint. Depending on your class, it can be worse. As a PM, you have high INT, giving you a large attribute mod to spell craft. And you can easily afford the skill points to put into it. Other casters are not so fortunate. Look at a sorcerer. They lose 20 from the capstone, don't get the attribute mod to spell craft, have a harder time sinking skill points into spell craft. If you have to spend skill points / int mod / +skill gear to keep your spell power where it is, then you are being nerfed. PMs fair the best out of any caster (in terms of spell power) due to being INT based. Druids also do reasonably well compared to live in terms of spell power - because there enhancements on live are terrible (only 65 instead of 100)
    Pretty much what he said except with a slight correction...Archmages are the best off PMs have to take points in heal to increase their neg energy...woo cross-class
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 07-06-2013 at 04:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Just want to point out that something that sits in your bank instead of being used, is in fact, useless. Since lore items will have their effect reduced by more than 70%, they pretty much become inferior to many other options competing for the gear slot.

    Imagine if greataxes had their damage dice reduced to 1d4. Not useless, as it's more than 0. Except that noone would use them.
    A fair point, though if I may offer a counter:

    Unlike the base damage of a GAxe, Lore is usually just one of the properties of an item otherwise equipped for multiple purposes. Assuming those other purposes are still valid and fully functional, the item doesn't become useless just because a single property has been reduced; this only applies if the sole or primary purpose of the item was Lore, and any other properties were just "useless" fluff.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    ...all I see is your main elements taking a hit.
    196
    230 +10 Cold
    218
    218 +10 Fire
    196
    196
    228 +30 Neg
    169
    196 <-- Force
    151


    But you're both wrong... You keep saying "But your spell power went down!"

    No... it went up... in EVERY category. EVERY category. Fire/Ice/Neg Once I took the skill points in Healing/Spellcraft.

    So stop saying it didn't, when I posted the numbers. If facts don't change your mind, nothing will.

    Double 10 point increases, and a 30 point increase to neg energy.

  12. #92
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Imagine if greataxes had their damage dice reduced to 1d4. Not useless, as it's more than 0. Except that noone would use them.
    Nah, look Cursepewing and Shattermantle both have "an effect" thus they are not useless... It's just that they are triffling enough that no one will bother using them. Oh... wait...

    Some of you surely read my 4 or 5 attempts to get Maj and Varg to tell us what the lore affix was going to become, and thus read that I was holding off on trading a Tome of Legend in for a Skiver. Now I know; and I wont be getting one. I know that the Skiver I did not trade a tome for has more than ZERO effect after the EP... but it is in fact now useless. Because I'm not going to trade in a tome of legend for 3% crit improvement. I will wield another Dynastic Falcatta (two extra red slots filled with Spell power augments). Oh wait my Bladeforged Sorc idea isn't going to be nearly as much fun with less crits, lower nuking damage, lame spell power, and a sudden need to put points into INT and a cross class skill just to get SOME back... Oh well leave him in Ron character planner unbuilt. How usefull is an unbuilt character? Nope my sorc build doesn't have "zero effect" so he is still technically "usefull" on paper but then doesn't the fact that I wont bother to play him, not constitute "useless"?

    This stream of consciousness was brought to you by "anything that still has more than zero effect is not "useless" it's just maybe not worth ever... using... hey wait..."

    Note: every character I have has flavor so you can keep your cookie cutter comments to yourself, I like building both flavor and capability into my toons... otherwise they aren't much fun... When they aren't fun*, THEN they are truly useless.

    *Games are supposed to be about having fun, thus unfun things are useless in the context of playing games.
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 07-06-2013 at 05:23 PM.

  13. #93
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    A fair point, though if I may offer a counter:

    Unlike the base damage of a GAxe, Lore is usually just one of the properties of an item otherwise equipped for multiple purposes. Assuming those other purposes are still valid and fully functional, the item doesn't become useless just because a single property has been reduced; this only applies if the sole or primary purpose of the item was Lore, and any other properties were just "useless" fluff.
    That depends. My greatest concern is with the ability greater arcane lore. The 2 items i think of are the blue dragon armor and the skiver. In the case of the dragon armor, it really is the only thing that makes that armor valuable. Potency and spell penetration are easy to get. The place is lousy with those effects. You can even craft them.

    The skiver has a few other worthwhile effects, but the person i met who was showing it off was using it for it's greater arcane lore in conjunction with a luck blade, which had all of his spell power needs slotted. This is also the reason that my guildies were pursuing them. The luck blade is still valid, maybe even more so, since it's main drawback was that it had no lore effects, which will soon be a very minor drawback. The skiver however, which is an incredibly grindy and difficult thing to obtain, won't be nearly as desirable as it now is.

    I'm not making the relative argument that people do where they have an item that doesn't change at all, but something better comes out, and they suddenly say the item they have is now worthless by comparison. In this case, the items really are becoming significantly worse relative to themselves.

  14. #94
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Actually, i think improved shattermantle isn't such a bad effect, even if people rarely use it. Imagine having a crossbow that grants 3 wizard past lives as it's effect.

  15. #95
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 350zguy View Post
    196
    230 +10 Cold
    218
    218 +10 Fire
    196
    196
    228 +30 Neg
    169
    196 <-- Force
    151


    But you're both wrong... You keep saying "But your spell power went down!"

    No... it went up... in EVERY category. EVERY category. Fire/Ice/Neg Once I took the skill points in Healing/Spellcraft.

    So stop saying it didn't, when I posted the numbers. If facts don't change your mind, nothing will.

    Double 10 point increases, and a 30 point increase to neg energy.
    That's as a wiz with skill points to spare as your main stat is int. Try with a sorc, fvs, druid, cleric, paladin, ranger ext. They're going to have to come up with the stat points for 1-2 more skill points to keep everything they have. That means 2 to 4 more stat points. Now druids are a little better than most but only because their current enhancements only go to 65 I think it is unlike everyone else's. So do you nerf con and have less hp? Dex and have a worse reflex? While it varies from class to class and build to build a lot of other stats are dump stats on casters as they don't need str and whatever isn't their casting stat wis, cha, ext is usually dumped.

  16. #96
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 350zguy View Post
    But you're both wrong... You keep saying "But your spell power went down!"

    No... it went up...
    [Edit] didn't they say that Spellcraft wont even be in the game yet when the EP hits? Making this "we get buffed by Spell craft skill and INT mod... well my PM does, everyone else can eat rocks as long as I am buffed" kind of even more BS?

    Personally I think it's a little disingenuous using the Wizard class who along with Arti are the only INT based casters in the game, as an example of "buffing spell power". Everyone else is cross classing spellcraft and is generally dumping INT.

    I'm glad you've found a buff in the EP, I hope it consoles you when some of the people who play Sorc's, Bards, Divines and self healing melees who have to fit INT and heal skill, and cross class spellcraft, trickle away from the game because their characters are less fun to play, and their gearing and build choice seem to them to have become pointless due to Turbines haste to flip the script in what was supposed to be a "polish pass" that improved the UI and completed the missing PrE's, but now has turned into a complete redoing of how multiclassing and character building work.
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 07-06-2013 at 05:48 PM.

  17. #97
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Isn't that just a pendulum swing from the current "best way to improve your cleric is to TR into a Favored Soul?" that I so commonly see in the forums under the current system?
    Yes and no, clerics have their place atm. They're not as good at killing atm however for an efficient raid healer I still like my cleric better than when he was a fvs. He has less sp but still enough when you combine it with aura's and buffs, the benefit of the aura's and bursts can't be overstated if you want a raid healer imo, it makes healing much easier and if that's all you want out of the toon for helping guildies with raids it works out just fine.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    That depends. My greatest concern is with the ability greater arcane lore. The 2 items i think of are the blue dragon armor and the skiver. In the case of the dragon armor, it really is the only thing that makes that armor valuable. Potency and spell penetration are easy to get. The place is lousy with those effects. You can even craft them.
    I share your concern with the Blue armor, and while the reduced crits do hurt some, relocating it's spell pen & potency would cause some serious headaches for me, not to mention the loss of set bonus (w/Blue helm) so I'll likely be keeping it as far from useless. As for the Skiver... What can I say? I've always thought it was over rated, but that's just my opinion...

    I find it quite interesting that we have both chosen the same piece of gear (Blue armor) as an example to support opposite positions on the matter... Eye of the beholder, eh?
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  19. #99
    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    [Edit] didn't they say that Spellcraft wont even be in the game yet when the EP hits? Making this "we get buffed by Spell craft skill and INT mod... well my PM does, everyone else can eat rocks as long as I am buffed" kind of even more BS?
    And if I'm right....Spellcraft will be a Skill, yes? So...What's gonna happen is, everyone's gonna respec their toons when the EP hits, so they're in line with the new Enhancement system. So "yay for Spellcraft!" Right?

    Wrong. Cause there ain't no way to respec your skill points short of reincarnation.
    All that is wrong with DDO, life, taxes, poltics, religion, music, fast food, education, the criminal justice system, the weather, society, the universe, and previously-discontinued-but-now-on-their-way-back snack cakes, is all the fault of Wizards of the Coast. I know this because Fred told me so, and Mind Flayers are smart.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    As for the HP nerfs, it's so minor compared to the amount of HP people have. I've said all along that it's minor, and I don't see 20-70 HP being game breaking.
    Ah, glad you can see that some builds are being nerfed when it comes to HP. Why should anyone end up with less HP after the enhancements?

    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    I honestly don't understand why some race/class combos should have the amount of HP they had. Why should a Halfling Rogue have comparable HP to a Dwarven Cleric? Or even a Warforged Barbarian? Why should a Drow Wizard be able to keep up in HP?
    They don't. I think this is where I'm not following your posts - you post a supposition that is obviously false and then try and use it as part of an argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    Based on what another poster put in about what's available, this only reaffirms my belief about the way the game should be balanced: Arcanes and other squishies should not have comparable HP to other classes unless they heavily over-specialize by taking a multi-class or being a race that's more hardy. If anything, this might see some more variety in the races chosen since all that's ever running around is Human and the occasional WF.
    They don't have the same HP unless they do? A well built warforged sorc won't have the same HP as a well built dwarven paladin, that's true in the current enhancements and the new enhancements. A better question would be to ask why any class or race should have less HP as a result of the enhancement pass. Even if they lose 5 HP, it's not a buff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    That's all I have to say on it. Yes, you're right, it's a nerf. I'll remove it. Happy? Let's get back to the thread and stop flaming people.
    I think the reason that this thread has had some attention is because there are problems with the enhancements that need to be highlighted so they can be fixed. I don't believe these fixes are massive, but lets not start blowing smoke up anyone's butt until we see a version of the enhancements on Lama land where the problems are addressed. Then we can start congratulating the system designers, the devs and the QA people for an excellent job well done.

    To fix the Toughness Nerf is an easy one:

    Bladeforged: Change their existing Construct Toughness feats to stack 3 times for a total of 60 HP
    Drow: Add a Tier 4 Toughness enhancement that stacks 3 times for a total of 30 HP
    Dwarf: Add +10 HP to their second and fourth +1 CON core abilities for a total of 50 HP
    Elf: Add a Tier 4 Toughness enhancement that stacks 3 times for a total of 30 HP
    Halfling: Add a Tier 4 Toughness enhancement that stacks 3 times for a total of 30 HP
    Half-Elf: Add a Tier 4 Toughness enhancement that stacks 3 times for a total of 30 HP
    Half-Orc: Add +10 HP to all of their core abilities for a total of 50 HP
    Human: Add a Tier 4 Toughness enhancement that stacks 3 times for a total of 30 HP
    Warforged: Change their Tier 1 and Tier 2 Toughness enhancements to stack 3 times for a total of 60 HP, replace their Tier 3 Toughness with another Damage Reduction enhancement, remove the Tier 4 Toughness enhancement completely
    Barbarian: Add +10 HP each Core ability in Frenzied Berserker, Add +1 HP/Point spent in Ravager Tree.

    Sorted It's not difficult But it does mean that if you want the racial toughness enhancements then you need to invest some points in that tree. Maybe not perfect because right now Racial enhancements are available based on "total AP spend" rather than AP spent in a single racial tree.

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