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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    Tell me something:

    Why should a character be able to function in range AND in melee AND be able to self-heal fairly well AND be able to survive hits on EE's? I don't know of any game outside of single-player XBOX garbage where you can min-max in virtually every area like that. It sounds like you got way too much for no cost beyond your "years of research". And while I hate to admonish you, I can't help but feel little sympathy for your incredibly niche "catch all" sounding build needing to be reworked.
    IMO, because that character is a ranger. Though, also IMO, anything that veers from the ranger, in this example, line should actually weaken them in one or more of these areas rather than make them stronger in pretty much all of them. Which is where, IMO again, the game, or more likely the PnP game it is based on, went wrong for the most part (caster levels being an example of where they got something right).

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    1) While many classes are losing Racial and Class Toughness feats, Improved Heroic Durability is granting +5 HP every 5 levels, a net benefit for classes that never got Toughness enhancements, thus freeing up AP across the board and potentially a feat slot for already feat starved characters. A net buff for many classes that didn't have toughness enhancements before or who couldn't afford the Toughness Feat.
    This is a major nerf, not a buff. There were a tiny number of people, either through ignorance or stubbornness, who did not take toughness and at least 2 Toughness Enhancements. And those people will still be getting 1 shot by disintigrates and lightning rebounds now just like they were before. The only change is that at low-mind levels only those with absolutely top shelf gear will now be able to survive failed saves on the spells that have very high damage for those levels.

    3) Numerous classes are getting new Prestige lines: Artificer (Arcanotechnician), Barbarian (Occult Slayer, Ravager), Cleric (Divine Disciple, Protector), Favoured Soul (Protector), and Monk (Henshin Mystic). This presents new, never before seen multi-class opportunities, even if old ones need to be tweaked.
    With the exception of Cleric and Monk, the majority of this is incorrect. The only thing that Arcanotechnician really adds to Artificer is essentially useless new 'admixture' SLAs. And it even pulls the Iron Defender enhancements that were a completely different pool of AP to use on your Iron Defender and makes you spend your own AP on them. And even worse, it locks the capstone that they have now being a really bad tree, making it mutually exclusive with focusing on the Battle Engineer tree.

    Barbarian also has the difficulty of having their core abilities tossed around through three separate trees. Barbarian at least does get new abilities in these changes, but the majority of the new stuff seems to scale extremely badly, making it only actually relevant for a window of levels that typically go by very quickly.

    The Protector tree for Clerics and Favored Souls is so terrible that it stands without being said. Clerics certainly did get something interesting in Divine Disciple, creating a much more viable offensive casting divine based on Light damage. Monks are a rather bitter disappointment, but at least they are getting some interesting and thought provoking things. Even if they are extremely counter to the core of the monk class.

    5) Some classes had Wand/Scroll Mastery and Wand Heightening folded into a single Enhancement rather than keeping them separate. Others still have them as two different enhancements, which is unfortunate, but it should be petitioned to be changed for consistency.
    Having Want Heightening folded into Wand Mastery could be considered a near-meaningless buff. But there is no way to look at Wand & Scroll Mastery now requiring Wand Heightening in some Trees as anything but a nerf.


    You are correct in that there are some good, positive things in this change. Mostly that melees can get a more interesting, active combat style rather than just 'hulk smash'ing their way through everything. But even most of these things that you have picked out as 'buffs' are nerfs or at best lateral changes made up and put in the best possible light.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Here's the real reason you like it, it nerfs people that run ee's which you don't like them doing successfuly. You fail at them and can't stand that others don't so you want them nerfed. Tell me I'm wrong.
    This really does seem like the core of things. "Other people can do things that I can't do, we need Enhancement Trees to force everyone into more narrowly defined roles that I can understand!"

  4. #64
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Can someone please define "Buff" and "Nerf" because I do not think my definitions match some posters here.

    They scream for numbers and when they get them, they fall silent and change their argument to:
    • it's a "buff"
    • you now how more weapon variety [monk, ranger, rogue posts]
    • You have SLA's [casters]
    • You shouldn't of been able to do that in the first place [non-cookie cutter builds]


    Yes I know I am challenging specific posters here, but I am asking you to prove your stance and not change/deflect the message. I know you think the pass is good and you are entitled to your opinion. We are also entitled to our opinion.

    Just provide numbers to your opinion like you demand of ours. Prove that weapon variety will be good using numbers (i.e. DPS). When the smoke clears, that is all that matters when you are facing "Uber Boss" in the raid. Because we need an increase of DPS to make up for the loss of HP's most builds are losing. You do ZERO DPS if you are at 0 HP's or less. So that insignificant 20 HP's isn't so insignificant anymore. There is a reason False Life items are always slotted. Every bit above 0 is important.

    You can ask for numbers all day long, but we can ask you to do the same.

    Show how those SLA's increase your productivity to the group now that you do less damage (because you have a lack of spell power). Now that you are doing less damage, fights will last longer. Fights last longer means you need to have more HP's. And because you have to take skills/Feats to buff your spell power (in its current form) you are less versatile. Let's talk about Sorcerer's who may become a liability during certain events because they no longer have access to opposing schools or force.

    Show how doing less healing (Devotion) or receiving less healing (Healing Amp) is a good thing. Now combine that with less HP's most builds will have!

    You can talk about all the great things we will get, and it may very well be greater than what we lose, but we have shown our cards, now show yours.

  5. #65
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    This demonstrates a lack of understanding. Those 1300 HP builds have 1300 HP because enhancements give them a % increase to HP. Losing toughness enhancements will be a major hit to their total, well beyond 20.
    Let's see here. The "Tank" who dumped currently 20AP (1/4th of their total AP) into the toughness enhancements on a Human pure stalwart is going to go from 70hp worth of buffs to 20, for a 50hp loss. Of course, we have to worry about the percentile bit of their hp, so we are actually going from 84hp down to 22, for a decrease of 62hp.

    They lose out on 62hp, which is less than 5% of their hp total. So yes, it's a hit.

    This is also ignoring that the people who aim for these hp totals (and also including the people who have this much hp regardless of destiny, aka the idiots in Sentinel constantly running Vigor and have 1500hp) are going to take things from the Stalwart line that's going to be implemented. That 1hp per point spent is going to be abused by the people who will end up spending 40 or so points into that tree (don't act like you haven't met people who do this idiotic stuff) which instantly translates into 40hp.

    So those high HP tank builds people like to make so they can drool over their hitpoints?

    Seems like they will lose 22hp.

    1.6% of their total.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    I'm not sure where you got this number from but actually any existing characters transfered over take a HUGE hit to spellpower.
    Pure Wizzy:
    86 --> 174+
    220 --> 208-
    148 --> 196+
    208 --> 196-
    126 --> 174+
    86 --> 174+
    198 --> 217+
    86 --> 158+
    86 --> 174+
    126 -->151+
    -----------
    1370 --> 1822
    Live --> Lam

    HUGE boost to overall spell power. Same gear.... PM, with SLAs I never had. Yes I lost 12 to cold, and 12 to fire. However I gained 19 to neg, and LOTS across the board. My lightning hits better, my SLA kinetics hit way harder, less total itemization, more damage options.

    But hey... Clearly you don't run the character I run, and the enhancement pass is not all "DOOOOOOOOOOOOOM".

    Crazy, because I have the game open, and the exact same character open, with the exact same build, right after copy, and I gained spell power in almost EVERY category....

    Gained SLAs, Gained pet, gained in DCs... Everything except fire and cold went up. (Now I haven't really fiddeled with crits, but I was never a huge CRIT junkie, I mostly play DC, and support. So this is a great boon to my toon.)

    BTW this is with a 0 spellcraft. So if I were to invest 12 points... I would be ahead by ever more...

    (Lesser rez:

    196
    230 <-- Cold
    218
    218 <-- Fire
    196
    196
    228 <-- Neg
    169
    196
    151

    1998 <--- DOOOOOOOM!!!!!! 10-30 increase of the three I use all day long. + SLAs.
    )

    Oh and 500 spell points... 2192 on "LIVE" in shadow dancer ~2600 on LAM in shadow dancer.
    Last edited by 350zguy; 07-06-2013 at 02:56 PM.

  7. #67
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    I rather enjoy all the assumptions about my character being thrown around but please, do continue to derail my thread by talking about how terrible a person I am for liking the Enhancement Pass.

    As for the HP nerfs, it's so minor compared to the amount of HP people have. I've said all along that it's minor, and I don't see 20-70 HP being game breaking.

    I honestly don't understand why some race/class combos should have the amount of HP they had. Why should a Halfling Rogue have comparable HP to a Dwarven Cleric? Or even a Warforged Barbarian? Why should a Drow Wizard be able to keep up in HP?

    Based on what another poster put in about what's available, this only reaffirms my belief about the way the game should be balanced: Arcanes and other squishies should not have comparable HP to other classes unless they heavily over-specialize by taking a multi-class or being a race that's more hardy. If anything, this might see some more variety in the races chosen since all that's ever running around is Human and the occasional WF.

    That's all I have to say on it. Yes, you're right, it's a nerf. I'll remove it. Happy? Let's get back to the thread and stop flaming people.

  8. #68
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hajutze View Post
    ... All that negativism. There is some good stuff. For example:

    Shuriken users:
    - ninja spy tree gives a shuriken expertise like effect - so if you have 30 dex you get the 30% chance to throw another shuriken 2 times (so you can throw up to 3 per strike)
    Still won't be a viable main damage type as you won't have the damage with it of any other type of weapon with a thrower. That said with all the times you need to range, fot crystal, lob pillars, ext ext ext throwers do need a buff but it's not like it's a viable character build.
    - excellent poison damage (again ninja spy)
    Many mobs are poison immune even to damage, this is situational dps similar to pally kotc dps is currently.

    You can sneak 50% faster (with ranger, monk or rogue) so you're sneak speed goes from 50 up to 75%. With the new mechanics I was able to literally walk circles around the monsters from a lv18 quest with no equipment whatsoever and relying only on my hide/walk silently skills (from dex + points + enhancements).
    That's great when soloing but it's a very rare quest where people want to wait for you to hero sneak it while they pike. Sneaking is a great idea and it works for assassins who pop into sneak at the door, go hit assassinate, then dps like normal. For the others sorry don't see how this will do anything for the vast majority of gamers. Sneaking over all seems like a bad mechanic for how this game is primarily made.
    Deepwood sniper has a lv6 ability/clicky attack which after a hit (there are 2 possible choices a melee and a ranged attack) makes the target bluffed for 4s (with a CD 6s) WITHOUT A NEED FOR A BLUFF SKILL AND NO SAVES INVOLVED. You get extra PBS range and max Archer focus stacks (up to 25).
    Pretty sure that dws already had this, not a ranger expert though, maybe someone else can answer this for sure.
    For DEX build lovers - lv3 rogue gives you DEX to DMG/ATK for staves, daggers, kukri and if you have weapon finesse - for every melee weapon which uses your dex for attack modofier. 3 monk gives you DEX to DMG/ATK for slash/pierce weapons you are centered with (shurikens too). Halfling gives DEX to DMG/ATK for shurikens. Deepwood sniper and Tempest have DEX to DMG/ATK as well
    There are several problems with this. First you can boost your str up higher than dex so str will still have better damage. Top that off overwhelming critical which is pretty much required for good melee dps has a high str requirement so going dex will get you lower damage and a worse critical profile. It's not quite as bad to be a dex build but it's still pretty bad.


    And if you want something a bit more broken - Fighters can run around in Great Axe, centered and with full monk stances even with 1 level of monk.

    1 monk shintao gives you a defensive stance (for 6 AP) which gives 35 PRR, 5% dodge, 75% TGen and -40% offhand attack chance. 2 more AP and you get an intimidate ability which uses concentration instead. A 2nd level of monk and 3 more AP gives you 15 more PRR
    This really isn't a buff, I see while they are doing it theme wise, (with a monk splash it brings kensai prc a little closer to kensai pnp) however it's going to cause so much rage once people start doing 9monk6ranger5fighter builds that go kensai with a 2hw, pick up all that defensive stuff you just mentioned, and still have manyshot, along with improved evasion. Just watch the forum rage will be epic.

  9. #69
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I don't recall saying anything about multiclass builds. I explained that your simplistic "20 HP won't effect 1300 HP builds" is misinformed because they get those 1300 HP by getting a % increase to their max hp, meaning every 10 from toughness enhancements is worth more than 10 HP.
    You're right, it's worth 12.

  10. #70
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    Tell me something:

    Why should a character be able to function in range AND in melee AND be able to self-heal fairly well AND be able to survive hits on EE's? I don't know of any game outside of single-player XBOX garbage where you can min-max in virtually every area like that. It sounds like you got way too much for no cost beyond your "years of research". And while I hate to admonish you, I can't help but feel little sympathy for your incredibly niche "catch all" sounding build needing to be reworked.
    I thought this was a buff thread ;p just kidding, to answer seriously: his Ranger AA does all those things at a reduced effectiveness than the specialists who only do one or two those things. He makes this compromise as a part of the character building process. Honestly I believe your comment is a bit of an insight into what motivates you and some others to defend the pass. At heart you appear to want reduced choices and more specialize single purpose characters.

    "why should you be able to build a well rounded character" ... maybe you can put that in your "buff list"

    6) Well rounded characters are properly more restricted to being more specialized

  11. #71
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Honestly I believe your comment is a bit of an insight into what motivates you and some others to defend the pass. At heart you appear to want reduced choices and more specialize single purpose characters.

    "why should you be able to build a well rounded character" ... maybe you can put that in your "buff list"

    6) Well rounded characters are properly more restricted to being more specialized
    I play a Dwarven Warpriest as my main "high level" when I'm not playing my TR (A character who had been a Dwarven 14 Warchanter / 6 Kensei in his first life). If I hated hybrids and non-specialized characters, why would I do that? There were CLEAR trade offs for doing what I wanted to do. Especially where the Warpriest was concerned, where I had to take 1 level of Fighter to get proficiencies and a much needed feat, but at the cost of my SP pool, caster level, my DCs, my damage/healing output, and delaying access to more spell slots until later levels. With how ridiculously insane some mob saves are (especially REFLEX! >) I miss on a lot of my spells that otherwise would turn the tide of battle in my favor, such as Destruction, Dismissal, Cometfall, and Greater Command. All because my DCs are one lower than if I'd been pure cleric and because I don't have caster feats to bolster Dcs. Pretty big trade off IMO.

    I also look forward to building a Warforged Barbarian 1 / 19 Earth Savant as a future character when the Enhancement Pass goes live, since I've always wanted a melee/arcane build to play with and using DoTs, buffs, and repairs to bolster 2 handed weapon damage would be fun, but of course I have to spread my feat choices out between melee and caster (or focus on only one), lose out on much of what Barbarian gets, lose out on DCs, spell points, crit, etc... just to be a melee caster like that.

    So if I wanted people more pigeon-holed, why would I do things like that?

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    This really isn't a buff, I see while they are doing it theme wise, (with a monk splash it brings kensai prc a little closer to kensai pnp) however it's going to cause so much rage once people start doing 9monk6ranger5fighter builds that go kensai with a 2hw, pick up all that defensive stuff you just mentioned, and still have manyshot, along with improved evasion. Just watch the forum rage will be epic.
    I agree with your point, but just wanted to point out that you need 8 Fighter levels in order to be centered with your Focus Weapon.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zirun View Post
    the word "useless" does in fact currently mean "less-than-optimal".
    There's entirely too much truth in ^that^ statement. On nearly every occasion I see the term "useless" applied to something related to the enhancement pass, it's used in place of "less effective than now." For example Lore items: somehow reduced functionality (which I'm not fond of, btw) has made them "useless" as if +3% crit chance = +0% crit chance. Now, I'm no math expert, but I find 3%>0%, so Lore -while less effective- is not useless...

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I like that the EP will mean everyone doesn't inevitably end up meandering towards one of a few FOTM builds because they're the best.
    I wish my glasses were as rose colored as yours... I fully expect that a new month will introduce a new flavor, and the uninspired "I would rather copy someone else's build than make my own" crowd will be eagerly awaiting the bandwagon...

    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    what is the point of this?... it heavily buffs certain types of builds over others.
    This has been true for nearly -if not every- mechanics change the game has ever gone through, and will likely be true for most if not all future mechanics changes. When the environment changes you adapt or die, it's that simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    just because it means little in Epics, it doesn't mean it's completely useless.
    It's nice to see somebody else express this idea, I usually get shot down for such statements, especially on these forums...

    Quote Originally Posted by ishr View Post
    lets see how far you get without heals or casters to support you.
    All the self-sufficient melee types seem to do ok so far... While I think making the assumption that there will be no casters is highly unlikely, there's already almost no healers in the pug world, and people will still pull them out for their guild & channel runs... For better or worse, not much changing on that front from the enhancement pass.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    I honestly don't understand why some race/class combos should have the amount of HP they had. Why should a Halfling Rogue have comparable HP to a Dwarven Cleric? Or even a Warforged Barbarian? Why should a Drow Wizard be able to keep up in HP?
    Not to take sides here, but it's because that's what works in the game as it was developed. Players chose to build to what works and if the ability to build to it didn't exist, those combinations likely wouldn't be much played.

    Really, to try to develop a game that plays along the lines you seem to favor would entail either making the incoming damage smaller, that just favors the high hp builds even more. Or increasing the defensive possibilities of those without them, which leads to either functional invulnerability or being hostage to fate as a couple (un)lucky hits could end things without any chance to react (think the infamous ogre double crit).

  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by 350zguy View Post
    Pure Wizzy:
    86 --> 174+
    220 --> 208-
    148 --> 196+
    208 --> 196-
    126 --> 174+
    86 --> 174+
    198 --> 217+
    86 --> 158+
    86 --> 174+
    126 -->151+
    -----------
    1370 --> 1822
    Live --> Lam

    HUGE boost to overall spell power. Same gear.... PM, with SLAs I never had. Yes I lost 12 to cold, and 12 to fire. However I gained 19 to neg, and LOTS across the board. My lightning hits better, my SLA kinetics hit way harder, less total itemization, more damage options.

    But hey... Clearly you don't run the character I run, and the enhancement pass is not all "DOOOOOOOOOOOOOM".

    Crazy, because I have the game open, and the exact same character open, with the exact same build, right after copy, and I gained spell power in almost EVERY category....

    Gained SLAs, Gained pet, gained in DCs... Everything except fire and cold went up. (Now I haven't really fiddeled with crits, but I was never a huge CRIT junkie, I mostly play DC, and support. So this is a great boon to my toon.)

    BTW this is with a 0 spellcraft. So if I were to invest 12 points... I would be ahead by ever more...

    (Lesser rez:

    196
    230 <-- Cold
    218
    218 <-- Fire
    196
    196
    228 <-- Neg
    169
    196
    151

    1998 <--- DOOOOOOOM!!!!!! 10-30 increase of the three I use all day long. + SLAs.
    )
    Total spell power across all schools is a terrible measure. Does your PM cast any light spells or positive energy spells, for example?

    And it looks like (before spending skill points), that your highest spell power values went down. That is the complaint. Depending on your class, it can be worse. As a PM, you have high INT, giving you a large attribute mod to spell craft. And you can easily afford the skill points to put into it. Other casters are not so fortunate. Look at a sorcerer. They lose 20 from the capstone, don't get the attribute mod to spell craft, have a harder time sinking skill points into spell craft. If you have to spend skill points / int mod / +skill gear to keep your spell power where it is, then you are being nerfed. PMs fair the best out of any caster (in terms of spell power) due to being INT based. Druids also do reasonably well compared to live in terms of spell power - because there enhancements on live are terrible (only 65 instead of 100).

    Don't get me wrong, there is some good stuff in the enhancement pass. But, spell power is generally being nerfed.

  16. #76
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    This really isn't a buff, I see while they are doing it theme wise, (with a monk splash it brings kensai prc a little closer to kensai pnp) however it's going to cause so much rage once people start doing 9monk6ranger5fighter builds that go kensai with a 2hw, pick up all that defensive stuff you just mentioned, and still have manyshot, along with improved evasion. Just watch the forum rage will be epic.
    I have to agree, there are a handful of uber synergies like Ninja Spy Shadow Fade + grandmaster Monk Earth stance + Epic SoS +Kensei 5 crititcal range enhacement that are serving as the "shiney oohhh ahhhh" that are making many ignore what's being lost. These builds (there are several) are so broken that we already know they will be nerfed from orbit in short order. But in the mean time they serve as a functional "slight of hand" distraction (though I believe they are accidental and not cynical intentional bait and switch on Turbines part, I've had my doubts about that at times).

    Come the nerfs, people will be like "oh wait that was what I loved about the pass" and they will be left looking at the "ess in the other hand".

    You know my thread isn't a "whats bad in the enhancement pass" it's strictly objectively measurable nerfs (near as I can keep it) things that you no longer get or that now cost more AP's to get less of...

    If I made a "bad things (not nerfs) in the enhancement pass thread" it would be a long list... populated by a whole lot of "for 6 seconds you do a paltry amount of extra damage, stacking on vorpal hits that you will almost never stack more than one of because you have to roll a 20 every 5 seconds, and watch a cooldown/counter stack before you can activate it" style "abilities" that the average player will probably completely ignore.

  17. #77
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    I agree with your point, but just wanted to point out that you need 8 Fighter levels in order to be centered with your Focus Weapon.
    My mistake, level breakdown would be a little different then but the end result will be the same 9monk 8fighter 2 ranger with the last level put into either monk or fighter not sure which would get you more from the top of my head, probably fighter.

  18. #78
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    I agree with your point, but just wanted to point out that you need 8 Fighter levels in order to be centered with your Focus Weapon.
    Has it just changed or something?

    Code:
    One With The Blade: Your melee Focus weapons are considered Centering. This ability does not affect ranged weapons.
    AP Cost: 1 	Level: 5 	Progression: 40 	Requires: Fighter Level 5, Keen Edge, Deadly Strike
    
    (Keen edge and deadly strikes are also tier 5 level 5 fighter required)

    from wiki

    BTW this ability is one of the best most interesting "multiclass synergy" abilities in the pass, but I expect it to be nerfed to hell. Sadly.
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 07-06-2013 at 03:14 PM.

  19. #79
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Has it just changed or something?

    Code:
    One With The Blade: Your melee Focus weapons are considered Centering. This ability does not affect ranged weapons.
    AP Cost: 1 	Level: 5 	Progression: 40 	Requires: Fighter Level 5, Keen Edge, Deadly Strike
    
    (Keen edge and deadly strikes are also tier 5 level 5 fighter required)

    from wiki

    BTW this ability is one of the best most interesting "multiclass synergy" abilities in the pass, but I expect it to be nerfed to hell. Sadly.
    Interesting, looks like I was right the first time then. I'm not sure how they could nerf it looking at it, seems like all they could do to nerf it is remove it but I've been wrong and surprised before.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Has it just changed or something?
    And the Enhancement that is a prerequisite for it requires Greater Weapon Focus, which requires 8 levels in Fighter.

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