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  1. #21

    Default More buffs

    As to some buffs, weapon using monks gain large buffs.

    Quarterstaff monks, kama monks, and short sword monks get nice bonuses to criticals.

    The tempest ranger capstone significantly increases their rate of attack with their off-hand.

  2. #22
    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    On item #1:

    A Human Druid can get 3 tiers of Racial Toughness, and 4 tiers of Druid Toughness, at 10 points for each enhancement, for a total of 70 HP, by level 10 at the earliest.

    Dwarf and Warforged Druids can take 4 tiers of Racial toughness. So that brings the total to 80 HP. By level 12.

    HOW is this "20 HP by level 20" not a nerf, again?

    And on #7:

    You could have just said "many new enhancements will have 'clicky' abilites attached to them to keep the ADD kids amused".
    Last edited by Philibusta; 07-05-2013 at 06:58 PM.
    All that is wrong with DDO, life, taxes, poltics, religion, music, fast food, education, the criminal justice system, the weather, society, the universe, and previously-discontinued-but-now-on-their-way-back snack cakes, is all the fault of Wizards of the Coast. I know this because Fred told me so, and Mind Flayers are smart.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    HOW is this "20 HP by level 20" not a nerf, again?
    For anybody that isn't a Human/Dwarf/Warforged Barbarian/Druid/Favored Soul/Fighter/Paladin, they only lose 20 HP (the same HP they gain) from Toughness enhancements. They also have the option of removing Toughness from their builds, and...

    And on #7:

    You could have just said "many new enhancements will have 'clicky' abilites attached to them to keep the ADD kids amused".
    ...Ah, nevermind, you don't want to have a discussion or see the opposing side, apparently. Can't let those petulant ADD kids ruin the game experience for everybody else by having things added to the game!

    Back on the main topic, the biggest gains from the enhancement pass are going to be in builds that are currently far-from-optimal. The "flavor builds" or "gimps" as they're called, that use weapon types that aren't Khopesh and max stats that aren't Strength on their melee fighters. Considering my main character is currently a Monk/Rogue Thief-Acrobat, I'm more than excited for spending AP on things that aren't 75% about my sneak attack damage.

    Numbers can be changed. A lot of them probably should be changed. Turbine doesn't have a great track record when it comes to fixing things before they come out, but we'll have to wait and see if/how fast they can fix any problems. Hopefully they provide everybody with a free lesser reincarnation, as well, since a lot of things that are currently terrible or incredibly niche (DEX-based melees, for instance) will suddenly be, at the very least, not-bad. I have my doubts, but I'm optimistic. The new system is simply better than the current one in terms of clarity and variety, though, so in at least that respect it's a clear improvement.

    After all, it's not like the game will be literally unplayable come August, right?

    Right?

    On a somewhat related note, I find it amusing that on one hand, people are always complaining about the game being too easy, casters being too powerful, power creep, and other things like that, then when Turbine nerfs them (even if it's just a nerf in one aspect and a buff overall), there's a huge outcry over them being nerfed. I know it's not necessarily (or even likely) the same people shouting each complaint, but still, amusing.

    While I'm here, is there anybody that can point me to a specific, currently workable build that would be completely unplayable after the enhancement pass (that isn't reliant on something that is bugged/clearly not WAI like that caster build I read about a while ago that abuses stacking Druid spell power enhancements on some weird 10/8/2 or somesuch split)? I see all this talk about how this and that are going to be useless, but it seems like the word "useless" has been changed to mean "less-than-optimal". I can't see any enhancements that are both absolutely necessary to a possible character and not included in the new enhancements in any way. I can see optimal builds becoming less optimal, and good builds becoming worse, but I don't see anything becoming 100% useless, which leads me to believe that it's just a lot of hyperbole and the word "useless" does in fact currently mean "less-than-optimal".

  4. #24
    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zirun View Post
    For anybody that isn't a Human/Dwarf/Warforged Barbarian/Druid/Favored Soul/Fighter/Paladin, they only lose 20 HP (the same HP they gain) from Toughness enhancements. They also have the option of removing Toughness from their builds, and...
    A character of any race can unlock two tiers of racial toughness by taking the Toughness feat. So...characters of every race from one of five different classes lose out on this deal, because (if I'm understanding this part correctly) there will be no more class toughness enhancements.

    Well, all the Halfling Rogues and the three people that play Elven Clerics ought to make out all right then, I guess. Super.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zirun View Post
    After all, it's not like the game will be literally unplayable come August, right?

    Right?
    LOL I wouldn't hold my breath on that. Given case history over the last few years, with the number of completely unrelated things that get broken in the game every time an update goes live, the servers might just crash. Ya never know.

    Seriously, though, I'm trying to keep an open mind about the whole thing. I probably sound alot more negative than I really feel about it, but that's probably because I often play "Devils Advocate". My plans for the EP are like this: I'm going to wait till four things happen before really deciding whether or not I like it:

    - The EP goes live.

    - They fix the bugs in the EP.

    - They fix all the other (unrelated) broken stuff that will break when they install the ED update.

    - Ron has a chance to update the DDO Character Planner to reflect this huge change.

    So, apologies for being so negative in this thread which was (originally) intended to point out good things about the Enhancement Pass.
    Last edited by Philibusta; 07-05-2013 at 09:27 PM.
    All that is wrong with DDO, life, taxes, poltics, religion, music, fast food, education, the criminal justice system, the weather, society, the universe, and previously-discontinued-but-now-on-their-way-back snack cakes, is all the fault of Wizards of the Coast. I know this because Fred told me so, and Mind Flayers are smart.

  5. #25
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    So....three races out of seven lose out...and five classes. Well, all the Halfling Rogues and the three people that play Elven Clerics ought to make out all right then, I guess. Super.
    In every online game I've played, from MMOs to MOBAs like LoL, if one thing is always being taken by the majority of the players, it's bound to get nerfed, simple as that. Because there was such a huge focus on taking Toughness and all those Toughness Enhancements, it's only understandable that it get nerfed to the point that only classes that SHOULD have HP can take those enhancements. It wasn't fair to all the feat starved classes that had trouble building Toughness into their builds without taking human or blowing a valuable feat slot for it. Is it fair to the people that have over-emphasized HP? Debatable.

    But hey, what do I know? I'm a gimp that only plays Dwarves instead of being one of the 9999 humans running around, and I get to keep my HP enhancements. /shrug.

    Edit: Frankly, I don't get why so many people on the forums are wetting themselves over a drop of 20 HP when I frequently run into players who have an excess of 800+ HP. I've seen tanks with over 1300 HP. Is 20 going to make or break the game? No. Not by a long shot. At least Heroic Durability giving 5 more HP at level 1 helps mitigate the drop AND is a direct buff to every race/class that did not have access to Toughness enhancements.

    I think people should be focusing on propping up and discussing the Enhancement lines that are weak (like Protector for Cleric/FvS is apparently) instead of bemoaning a loss of 20 HP to their FotM build.
    Last edited by Danemoth; 07-05-2013 at 09:18 PM.

  6. #26
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    my pure human barb will be useless if the PA and rage bug doesn't get fixed before live. with everything ive read so far, barb dps is going backwards. i could use the free lesser that will probably be offered and roll up an elven rogue. seems to be the only thing ive seen that's getting something positive out of the enhancement changes.

  7. #27
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    He is understating the crit loss. Currently, you get 9% to most lines from enhancements, and 12% from items. You actually get more from enhancements and feats on via the enhancement pass. 8% enhancements + 5% feat. The loss in chance comes from items. Superior Lore only gives 6% instead of 12%. The net effect is a loss of 2% critical chance. Not that bad.

    The real loss, however, is in the multiplier. Enhancements alone let you get to 2.25 now, verses the set 2 in the pass. Plus an additional 0.5 from a superior lore item. This combined with the lower chance results in a total of 19% additional damage from criticals in the enhancement pass verses 36.75% achievable now. Quite a large nerf, actually. However, Vargouille has said they don't intend a nerf, and asked for numbers. Those have been provided, so maybe they look at it.
    Seems to me that they could probably even it out by just not changing lore items. You'll still have a lower multiplier value, but a higher chance to crit. Basically changing your spell crit profile from a khopesh to a rapier. I could live with that.

  8. #28
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    - Ron has a chance to update the DDO Character Planner to reflect this huge change.
    Not sure on this, it's just a rumor I've heard, but I've heard that Ron was fed up with things here and quit. Like I said I'm not sure on it, it's a rumor but maybe someone knows for sure.

  9. #29
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Not sure on this, it's just a rumor I've heard, but I've heard that Ron was fed up with things here and quit. Like I said I'm not sure on it, it's a rumor but maybe someone knows for sure.
    Did he get fed up about having to use 400 khyber shards to bind his crossbow? He just started a thread a few days ago about that.

  10. #30
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Did he get fed up about having to use 400 khyber shards to bind his crossbow? He just started a thread a few days ago about that.
    If that's true maybe it's a false rumor I hope so for ddo's sake, losing someone like ron would be bad for the community with all he does with the character planner.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    That at best means that it buffs none and hurts some that used to heavily invest in it. Please show me a non gimp build that benefits.
    Rog20

  12. #32
    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Not sure on this, it's just a rumor I've heard, but I've heard that Ron was fed up with things here and quit. Like I said I'm not sure on it, it's a rumor but maybe someone knows for sure.
    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Did he get fed up about having to use 400 khyber shards to bind his crossbow? He just started a thread a few days ago about that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    If that's true maybe it's a false rumor I hope so for ddo's sake, losing someone like ron would be bad for the community with all he does with the character planner.
    Likely the rumor is false. I just read the thread about the crossbow thing, and he did not seem too terribly upset about it. Also, I just corresponded with Ron the day before yesterday about a bug I found in the current version of the Planner concerning Druid enhancements. He told me he'd work on it, so that indicates to me that at least he hasn't lost the desire to do the Planner. I don't think he's quit the game over a mere 400 khyber DS fragments, either. Sheesh...you can farm that many in a couple hours smashing breakables.

    Anyways...hope I put that rumor to rest, so the OP's thread can get back on topic. Next up: Positive things about the Enhancement Pass!
    All that is wrong with DDO, life, taxes, poltics, religion, music, fast food, education, the criminal justice system, the weather, society, the universe, and previously-discontinued-but-now-on-their-way-back snack cakes, is all the fault of Wizards of the Coast. I know this because Fred told me so, and Mind Flayers are smart.

  13. #33
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    People that don't like the EP don't like it because its forcing them to change their current builds to find the new min-max.

    People that do like the EP like it because it opens up opportunities for new builds that you cant do right now.

    I don't think you can convince the doom and gloomers that its not doom and gloom, because they don't WANT change in the first place, they just expected the EP to buff their current builds even more.

    I'm among the latter group, I'm looking forward to having more options, to seeing current "flavor" builds getting boosted to full viability, to seeing more diversity in races and weapons. I like that the EP will mean everyone doesn't inevitably end up meandering towards one of a few FOTM builds because they're the best. If that means that you'll have to rethink your Juggy or Shiradi Sorc or Monkcher a little bit, I'm OK with that

  14. #34
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post

    1) While many classes are losing Racial and Class Toughness feats, Improved Heroic Durability is granting +5 HP every 5 levels, a net benefit for classes that never got Toughness enhancements, thus freeing up AP across the board and potentially a feat slot for already feat starved characters. A net buff for many classes that didn't have toughness enhancements before or who couldn't afford the Toughness Feat.

    :
    what is the point of this? some classes might not have the toughness enhancements but all races had some, with some races having more than others show casing the sturdiest of the races.

    I took toughness to access the racial, and when possible class toughness enhancements not for 20 more hp.

    what makes me suspicious is why not just make it character level? why 5 levels in each class? when I look at the tone of a lot of the other stuff coupled with this I see a move to try and curb multiclassing as much as possible and to make the character build design to be as inflexible as possible.

    Good thing I guess freeing up a feat and enhancement points but it heavily buffs certain types of builds over others. I think many will drop in HP.

  15. #35
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    "it's just a lot of hyperbole and the word "useless" does in fact currently mean "less-than-optimal"."

    I won't speak for anyone else but for me its "no longer fun" as in my build going from 25% crit chance to 12%, losing a lot of multiplier and going from 290 spell power down to roughly 100 something is no longer fun.

    I'm going to guess you might mean my "weird" build, its a 16 bard getting 50 Spower and 4% extra sonic from 3 Wiz, and 20 extra sonic and 20 extra positive as well as rams might spell from 1 Druid. I've brought it up a few times in these pass discussions.

    And you know what? It's a flavor build, its a Duergar dwarf, swinging a pick and a hammer (hammer of the leaden clouds and Deathnip) using sonic in place of psonics, all that stacked sonic amounted to decent EH performance, good support group healing, and CC from the stuns off greater shout. A fun flavor-tastic build but as it turned out a solid contributor. The really fun part was going to be "dirge" and primal scream and a few other sonic ED's which was the original aim of the build. but this pass has taken the wind out of that builds sails. Approximately halfing its nuking. Now this is where someone calls Gimp, don't care all bards are, this one was a lot of fun. Not going to be after the pass.

  16. #36
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    I thought this was the buff thread?

  17. #37
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 350zguy View Post
    I thought this was the buff thread?
    It is but it seems like a few users would rather try to start a flame war and get it locked so that the only active thread is a "doom and gloom" post that emphasizes only one side of the Enhancement Pass and none of the good stuff.

    I'm rather excited for the potential of Henshin Mystic to bolster Season's Herald druids to provide druids with more spell power and some non-mana based offensive ability through the Ki blasts. That and the buffs to Tempest and Thief-Acrobat are what I'm really interested in, especially since those will be my next few lives, too.

    Oh, should add that but I guess it's not really necessary:

    1) Monks get Ki Blasts outside of Epic Destinies! Moar Dakka!

  18. #38
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zirun View Post
    While I'm here, is there anybody that can point me to a specific, currently workable build that would be completely unplayable after the enhancement pass (that isn't reliant on something that is bugged/clearly not WAI like that caster build I read about a while ago that abuses stacking Druid spell power enhancements on some weird 10/8/2 or somesuch split)? I see all this talk about how this and that are going to be useless, but it seems like the word "useless" has been changed to mean "less-than-optimal". I can't see any enhancements that are both absolutely necessary to a possible character and not included in the new enhancements in any way. I can see optimal builds becoming less optimal, and good builds becoming worse, but I don't see anything becoming 100% useless, which leads me to believe that it's just a lot of hyperbole and the word "useless" does in fact currently mean "less-than-optimal".
    My current build on my main that I was hoping to make my final life again when I get around to it will be useless and no longer viable.
    Why?

    It's an 11Ranger/6Monk/3Arti AA+ 10K stars build that uses thf+cleaves when not pewpewing. a couple of the only reason this build works as it does now is because it's a dark monk with Shadow Fade+ Monk/Helf Heal amp enhancements. Currently the monk heal amp enhancements are just that: Monk enhancements. So When I scroll heal myself in EE's they hit me for 356 HP; this is roughly a full heal for me since I never let myself get below 300 HP, and I only run 600-800 HP. I also use CMW quite often even in EE's and they hit me for about 70-80(No spellpower to speak of currently)

    When the EP hits I will loose all my heal amp from my monk enhancements because they are no longer a monk enhancement, but they're in one of the other trees that is not Ninja Spy. And my build will not work the way I play it without Shadow Fade.

    In other words, I won't be able to sustain my current survivability in EE's once the EP hits, and will be forced to think up a new build. Not to mention the way they have changed the slayer arrows.. Ugh. I don't need another damn clicky to hit. I already have 18 hotbars of ****, 2 with spells, 2 with scrolls, 2 with clickies/abilities... I simply can't fit anything else.

    But honestly, what bothers me more than anything else about this entire mishap is the fact that I've spent 3, almost 4 years learning all there is to know about Rangers, AA's and all varieties of ranged DPS builds in the current state of the game. I know almost all there is to know of the subject and come the EP, that all goes out the window and I'm as clueless as the rest of the server. And all of this because Turbine ignored what people actually asked for, and gave us whatever you want top call this.
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  19. #39
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    My current build on my main that I was hoping to make my final life again when I get around to it will be useless and no longer viable.
    Why?

    It's an 11Ranger/6Monk/3Arti AA+ 10K stars build that uses thf+cleaves when not pewpewing. a couple of the only reason this build works as it does now is because it's a dark monk with Shadow Fade+ Monk/Helf Heal amp enhancements. Currently the monk heal amp enhancements are just that: Monk enhancements. So When I scroll heal myself in EE's they hit me for 356 HP; this is roughly a full heal for me since I never let myself get below 300 HP, and I only run 600-800 HP. I also use CMW quite often even in EE's and they hit me for about 70-80(No spellpower to speak of currently)

    When the EP hits I will loose all my heal amp from my monk enhancements because they are no longer a monk enhancement, but they're in one of the other trees that is not Ninja Spy. And my build will not work the way I play it without Shadow Fade.

    In other words, I won't be able to sustain my current survivability in EE's once the EP hits, and will be forced to think up a new build. Not to mention the way they have changed the slayer arrows.. Ugh. I don't need another damn clicky to hit. I already have 18 hotbars of ****, 2 with spells, 2 with scrolls, 2 with clickies/abilities... I simply can't fit anything else.

    But honestly, what bothers me more than anything else about this entire mishap is the fact that I've spent 3, almost 4 years learning all there is to know about Rangers, AA's and all varieties of ranged DPS builds in the current state of the game. I know almost all there is to know of the subject and come the EP, that all goes out the window and I'm as clueless as the rest of the server. And all of this because Turbine ignored what people actually asked for, and gave us whatever you want top call this.
    Tell me something:

    Why should a character be able to function in range AND in melee AND be able to self-heal fairly well AND be able to survive hits on EE's? I don't know of any game outside of single-player XBOX garbage where you can min-max in virtually every area like that. It sounds like you got way too much for no cost beyond your "years of research". And while I hate to admonish you, I can't help but feel little sympathy for your incredibly niche "catch all" sounding build needing to be reworked.

  20. #40
    Community Member MoBlackChaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    8. Less lag with less people playing.
    Less lag with more people playing. Turbine pay some money and upgrade your servers

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