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  1. #161
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    So OTHER than you 36pt Sorc which is a SMALL FACTION of the population it's a nerf....it's also a nerf to Palemasters (Heal is cross-class), Bards (again Heal is cross-class), Clerics/FvS (Need both Spellcraft and Heal on an already skill starved class)

    I don't care how you slice it either its a nerf to a different stat while buildling or you lose other important skills and all for what seems like a random addition (which FYI this is not what the PnP spellcraft does) it would make more sense for a casters primary attribute (ie. Wis for Cleric, Cha for Sorc or Int for Wiz) to increase spell power or if the devs insist on making it a skill thing have Concentration increase Universal Spell Pen.

    There was PLENTY of fantastic suggestions for how to make Heal and Repair useful (see: NOT mandatory) but the devs just ignored all of them in favor of doing something incredibly random.



    uhhhh....thats entirely incorrect a buff to one class in not a nerf.
    To "some people" there are no nerfs.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    i don't understand how getting +5 hp every 5 levels instead of the automatic 20 hp granted at level 1 is a buff and how it replaces Toughness feat. every class still gets the 20 hp from HD, its just spread out instead.
    The original 20 HP at level 1 has been improved to 25, in addition to +5 at class levels 5, 10 and 15.

  3. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    They are making people invest MORE to get back to the same capability they had before, which in effect is a nerf. The classes that get less skill points are going to be hit harder on this. Youve outlined the work arounds, but work arounds arent fixes. Youre basically shifting the nerf to another area.
    This. Heck, even with the work-arounds, it is still a nerf for some classes. Take sorcerer:

    On live, you can get 120 force spell power from enhancements.
    On Lam, you get 60 (assuming you spend every point in sorc trees. No more human heal amp / +cha).

    You need a 60 spell craft to fix that. That'll take quite an investment on a sorcerer to achieve.

    Perhaps:
    23 ranks
    8 epic
    4 GH
    20 item? Doesn't exist yet. Who knows how easy it'll be to get. And it takes another gear slot
    4 expcetional. Better recraft that greensteel
    59 spell craft. Dang. Still not there.

    Also, sorcerers already have a number of useful skills to invest in:
    Concentration
    UMD
    Balance
    Spellcraft
    Heal / Repair

    Interesting, but 2nd tier
    Diplomacy
    Haggle
    Bluff

    Even a starting 12 INT isn't sufficient. This also runs counter to some of their stated goals. They made the toughness changes for the purpose of adding more interesting choices and reducing the number of required feats. Now we have required skills.

    Not too mention, that it is now infeasible to build a 3 element sorcerer. And you lose spell power for picking up racial abilities.

    Sorcerer spell power is being nerfed. It is simple as that. You can mitigate the loss by expending additional gear slots, giving up taking racial abilities, and skill points, but it is still being nerfed.

    And it looks even worse compared to other classes that fare much better in terms of spell power. Sorcerers are going from the high spell power class to the low spell power class. Spell Criticals are half as useful as they are on live (see my Lam posts for the math). Their SLAs are worse then druid / cleric SLAs. At a minimum, they need to take at pass at the sorcerer trees like they did the cleric one.

    Note, sorcerer is just getting hit the hardest by the spell power changes. We shouldn't have to spend skill points to get our spell power back to where it is on live. And having to do so runs counter to their stated goals of allowing / requiring interesting choices.

  4. #164
    Community Member GlassJaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The original 20 HP at level 1 has been improved to 25, in addition to +5 at class levels 5, 10 and 15.
    Is this still class levels or will it be character levels? If it's class levels, it's an unnecessary penalty to multi-classed characters.

  5. #165
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    Well I do think it's interesting that skill based characters, and skills in general are getting a boost, yet the classes aren't getting a boost in skill points.

    Everything from PNP has been turned up... WAY up. Hit points, numbers of spells cast, etc.

    Even base damage on a lot of spells is 1d3+3 to even out the spikes....

    However skill points remain unchanged AFAIK.

    Seems like we're so damn heroic, everyone would get at least 3 skill points per level.

  6. #166

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The original 20 HP at level 1 has been improved to 25, in addition to +5 at class levels 5, 10 and 15.
    Thank you.

    One of my long time requests has been to make toughness an optional feat.
    Please continue freeing up our feat choices when you can.

  7. #167
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdrocky View Post
    Everyone can access lamania. you just need to download and install the client. You can build your own build all the way to 25 including ED's and u have a wide selection of weapons both epic and heroic versions.
    Some people can't copy characters over, some people can't get Lam client to work, some might be busy or just not be tester types but still like to be informed of whats happening. I'm sorry but this "don't talk about this in general" seems to be certain people wanting squelch information to keep the playerbase uninformed. I'm not sure what their motive is, but I hate to think that the people who are okay with eating the mud sammich are intentionally trying to keep people who don't want to eat one from knowing about it before it hits their plate.

  8. #168
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Less lag
    The UI looks "pretty"
    Gimpy RP flavor build become a little better
    effective min/max builds take a hit


    I put that last one in there as there seems to be a sentiment going around that min/maxing is a bad bad thing and is game breaking or some nonsense so for these people its "buff", it's also a buff for those wanting easy cookie cutter builds that require hardly any thought.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The original 20 HP at level 1 has been improved to 25, in addition to +5 at class levels 5, 10 and 15.
    I'll repeat my concern that I had with the original +5 HP per class level split... Why should a 5/15 or 10/10 or 5/5/10 build get more HPs this way than a pure build?

  10. #170
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 350zguy View Post
    Did you lesser rez to spec 23 points into spellcraft?

    Because that would overcome the 15, and put you 12 ahead (just like most others).
    I think it would be nice if the opposing view would please recognize that things with new additional build point, skill point or AP costs are "nerfs". (i.e. they have a higher opportunity cost than previously)

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The original 20 HP at level 1 has been improved to 25, in addition to +5 at class levels 5, 10 and 15.
    Any particular reason for favoring certain multi-class splits over others?

    A 15/5 or 10/5/5 gets 20 extra HP, while a 12/4/4 only gets 10 HP.

    Wouldn't it be fairer to just make it +5 at CHARACTER levels 5, 10, and 15? Or maybe both simpler and fairer to just make it +1 per 1 class level?

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I think it would be nice if the opposing view would please recognize that things with new additional build point, skill point or AP costs are "nerfs". (i.e. they have a higher opportunity cost than previously)
    I actually note that in one of my previous comments...

    ^ Look up

    However I still think the "opposing side" is blowing it WAY out of proportion. Especially since when I retooled my character I gained SP, I maintained my crit%, and ended with 500 more spell points. In addition I gained SLAs that cost 2 SP, didn't have to re-itemize, and also gained electrical, and kenitic damage, where previously I didn't have enough points to go everywhere.

    So you can fixate on the very narrow idea that one "nerf" is one nerf too many. I see it as a game mechanic revamp, and overal it is VASTLY positive.

    /shrug

    I guess we'll just disagree with the direction.

    You don't like it.

    I do.

  13. #173
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The original 20 HP at level 1 has been improved to 25, in addition to +5 at class levels 5, 10 and 15.
    Not that I think 5 HP one way or the other is worth fretting over but this really should be changed to CHARACTER level and not class.

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    Thank you.

    One of my long time requests has been to make toughness an optional feat.
    Please continue freeing up our feat choices when you can.
    Except this change means that every monster will need to be hitting that much stronger to "keep the game fun and challenging", so you'll still need the toughness feat, maybe two if you don't qualify for some of the buffs most people are going to get.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The original 20 HP at level 1 has been improved to 25, in addition to +5 at class levels 5, 10 and 15.
    What is the design philosophy that has this based on class levels?

    Is it to provide an incentive to stay pure class?

    Or is this an oversight and it'll be fixed before the expansion and the new enhancements go live?

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    What is the design philosophy that has this based on class levels?

    Is it to provide an incentive to stay pure class?

    Or is this an oversight and it'll be fixed before the expansion and the new enhancements go live?
    Can't be as an incentive for pure class, since they get less HP than the 15/5 or 10/5/5 splits.

  17. #177
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post


    uhhhh....thats entirely incorrect a buff to one class in not a nerf.
    Oh but it is so. My fighter was nerfed by crit rage 2 and tempest 1 way back when. My fighter became less effective when compared to barbarians and melee rangers and fighters in general began to disappear from the game. The same with 10k stars and other ranged classes, etc. The same will happen with this enhancement pass to one class or another or one character build type or another as the buffs to other classes or character builds will lead to the classes that did not receive those buffs to disappear from DDO.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  18. #178
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Oh but it is so. My fighter was nerfed by crit rage 2 and tempest 1 way back when. My fighter became less effective when compared to barbarians and melee rangers and fighters in general began to disappear from the game. The same with 10k stars and other ranged classes, etc. The same will happen with this enhancement pass to one class or another or one character build type or another as the buffs to other classes or character builds will lead to the classes that did not receive those buffs to disappear from DDO.
    Interesting philosophy . . . so barbs not only lost a crit multiplier (in addition to that rage/PA bug that makes them un-playable) but they're also getting defacto-nerfed by the broken OP kensai/monk combinations.

    never looked at it that way, but it looks to be reality.

    Everyone I know with a THFing barb/kensai is TRing into a 12/6/2. Should say a lot.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 07-08-2013 at 01:33 PM.

  19. #179
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    A couple corrections...

    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    1) Numerous classes are getting new Prestige lines: Artificer (Arcanotechnician)
    Taking one PRE and splitting it into 2 with just a few tiny additions to one of them is not a buff. It's pretty much the definition of a nerf.

    3) Some classes had Wand/Scroll Mastery and Wand Heightening folded into a single Enhancement rather than keeping them separate. Others still have them as two different enhancements, which is unfortunate, but it should be petitioned to be changed for consistency.
    Since pretty much no one took the wand heightening, removing something pretty much useless is not a buff. It is however better than the original nerf that was planned in the first pass of this on Lama so I could see how you would think its good.

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The original 20 HP at level 1 has been improved to 25, in addition to +5 at class levels 5, 10 and 15.
    So if I take a 1-4 deep splash in any class I lose 5 HP compared to people who move neatly in blocks of 5? Seems wrong, switch it to character based.

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