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  1. #141
    The Hatchery
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    I just checked one of my sorcs. I lost 15 spell power from my primary school (I put EVERY SINGLE AP I could into that tree), and 41 from my secondary school, but gained 25 to repair. I also generally gained to my off-schools, but I do not care about those at all.

    This is a nerf to me.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    I just checked one of my sorcs. I lost 15 spell power from my primary school (I put EVERY SINGLE AP I could into that tree), and 41 from my secondary school, but gained 25 to repair. I also generally gained to my off-schools, but I do not care about those at all.

    This is a nerf to me.
    Did you lesser rez to spec 23 points into spellcraft?

    Because that would overcome the 15, and put you 12 ahead (just like most others).

  3. #143
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 350zguy View Post
    Did you lesser rez to spec 23 points into spellcraft?

    Because that would overcome the 15, and put you 12 ahead (just like most others).
    Sorcs don't have spare skill points like wizzies. He'd be nerfing con or cha to get int, or nerfing his skills that he already had like concentration, umd, balance ext. It just shifts the nerf to another area.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by 350zguy View Post
    Did you lesser rez to spec 23 points into spellcraft?

    Because that would overcome the 15, and put you 12 ahead (just like most others).
    No, I did not LR. The skill point changes were not meant to account for nerfs in the enh pass, according to a dev.

    And getting more int (spellcraft and repair) would take stat points from something else. I would not consider the bonuses from that a straight buff, since there is a steep tradeoff.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  5. #145
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    My wf melee fvs lost 10 positive spell power and 11 light spell power.

    To be fair, he did gain some other interesting bits. But the spell power itself did go down a little.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  6. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by 350zguy View Post
    I didn't hit any less hard with crits, I may have hit less often, but I would have to spend a freaking hour testing on hundreds of casts to get anything close to reality.
    Depending on your build and equipment, you will probably hit less hard and less often. My stats (with the roughly 15% damage decrease) are based on my character who, for these examples, equipped random lootgen items (12% Lore with 108 or 114 spell power).

  7. #147
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Sorcs don't have spare skill points like wizzies. He'd be nerfing con or cha to get int, or nerfing his skills that he already had like concentration, umd, balance ext. It just shifts the nerf to another area.
    (1) 36 point build can max out both CON and CHA, and still have 4 build points left over. Instead of putting all 4 in STR (for carrying capacity), put 2 in INT.
    (2) Epic TR gives two more build points - what else is a sorc going to spend those on? Two more STR?
    (3) Nothing wrong with taking away 1 build point from CON and gaining 3 build points for INT for skill points. In some cases, it may not even cost you hp.

    It's a net buff for a true powergamer sorc... You have to count 23 spell-craft ranks for every powergamer sorc.

    So it's a BUFF.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  8. #148
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    (1) 36 point build can max out both CON and CHA, and still have 4 build points left over. Instead of putting all 4 in STR (for carrying capacity), put 2 in INT.
    (2) Epic TR gives two more build points - what else is a sorc going to spend those on? Two more STR?
    (3) Nothing wrong with taking away 1 build point from CON and gaining 3 build points for INT for skill points. In some cases, it may not even cost you hp.

    It's a net buff for a true powergamer sorc... You have to count 23 spell-craft ranks for every powergamer sorc.

    So it's a BUFF.
    So its a buff for 36+ point sorc's but what about others? its still works out to be a buff right?

  9. #149
    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    (1) 36 point build can max out both CON and CHA, and still have 4 build points left over. Instead of putting all 4 in STR (for carrying capacity), put 2 in INT.
    (2) Epic TR gives two more build points - what else is a sorc going to spend those on? Two more STR?
    (3) Nothing wrong with taking away 1 build point from CON and gaining 3 build points for INT for skill points. In some cases, it may not even cost you hp.

    It's a net buff for a true powergamer sorc... You have to count 23 spell-craft ranks for every powergamer sorc.

    So it's a BUFF.
    I've also gotta spend points on repair

    that's 4 points i'm spending on int now for 2 int based skills.

    There really needs to be 3 versions of spell crafted though. Int based, cha based, and wis based.

    The power gamer in me is also desperately trying to find a way to make a wiz get more spell power than a sorc atm, the archmage nerf (no secondary school SLA's) is making it tougher than expected though.
    Last edited by fTdOmen; 07-08-2013 at 07:38 AM.

  10. #150
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    So its a buff for 36+ point sorc's but what about others? its still works out to be a buff right?
    None of you give a rats ass about sorcs with less than 36+ build points... And they will just live with a "measly" 15 or 16 CON instead of an 18, so yeah still a buff to spell-power...
    Last edited by Thrudh; 07-08-2013 at 07:51 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  11. #151
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fTdOmen View Post
    There really needs to be 3 versions of spell crafted though. Int based, cha based, and wis based.
    That would be fair.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  12. #152
    The Hatchery
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    (1) 36 point build can max out both CON and CHA, and still have 4 build points left over. Instead of putting all 4 in STR (for carrying capacity), put 2 in INT.
    (2) Epic TR gives two more build points - what else is a sorc going to spend those on? Two more STR?
    (3) Nothing wrong with taking away 1 build point from CON and gaining 3 build points for INT for skill points. In some cases, it may not even cost you hp.

    It's a net buff for a true powergamer sorc... You have to count 23 spell-craft ranks for every powergamer sorc.

    So it's a BUFF.
    It's a change. I get something for taking something from something else.

    But again, skill changes are not part of enhancement pass. So it has nothing to do with whether the enhancement pass is a buff or a nerf or a giraffe on stilts.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  13. #153
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    The skills change is supposed to be supplemental, not supposed to make up with anything lots in enhancements. This is as per the devs in the Lamania chats.

  14. #154
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    I like the enhancement pass overall and think that it will be the best thing to come out this year. With so much other bad news from Turbine the enhancement pass is something optimistic that the devs should be proud of. That all being said OP I think you totall mischaracterize what a nerf and a buff are. A buff is a nerf to all the classes that do not receive it. For example, the shurikan buff is a nerf to the crossbow users, throwing axe throwers, bow users, etc.

    This is not a question of symantics - this is reality. If build A gets a buff then build B gets played a lot less and can virtually disappear from the game. This has happened throughout the time of DDO. I am never happy a class gets a buff because it means another class got a nerf now sometimes it is nice when a downtrodden class or type of play gets a buff because maybe it puts them on more equal footing and this might enhance build options, but as in the case of the 10k stars buff for example it meant that players begun to have bow shooters with 6 monk levels which was hardly the correct solution.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  15. #155
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I like the enhancement pass overall and think that it will be the best thing to come out this year.
    Oh heck no, best thing to come out this year was the CENSORED

    Um, nevermind.

    Jokes aside, its a good system overall but the devil is in the details and some of these details need serious review before this should go live.

  16. #156
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    None of you give a rats ass about sorcs with less than 36+ build points... And they will just live with a "measly" 15 or 16 CON instead of an 18, so yeah still a buff to spell-power...
    well thank you for making it clear the post I quoted was confusing to say the least. And actually I do give a rats ass for sorcs with less than 36 build points not all my characters are 3rd + lives. So don't throw random generalizations out there.

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    well thank you for making it clear the post I quoted was confusing to say the least. And actually I do give a rats ass for sorcs with less than 36 build points not all my characters are 3rd + lives. So don't throw random generalizations out there.
    Well, its hard to not count feats, and enhancements, and skills in this pass.

    A lot of rage is tossed about the lore changes form 12% to 6% on existing items. (No one has said if +7,8,9 will drop with the new system.) However they added your base casting feat to get 5% crit. Something that was never there.

    So, the "enhancements" give 1% less. That is a "Nerf".
    But the base feat gives 5% more. That is a "buff".
    The items give 50% less. "nerf"
    But new items can drop, and the cap isn't 6% for sure (Why call it lore VI, without ever adding lore VII?)
    Some spell powers went up by over 30 points. "buff"
    Others dropped by 10 or 12 "Nerf"
    You have to soak skill points to get back to where you were, so you also lost 10ish skill points "Nerf"


    I added up several things on my toon according to the sheet. I lost 23 skill points to spellcraft for sure. However my base crit was still 22%. I did change a few feats, took 1 less spell pen since I have a few past lives.

    So the changes to my caster overall are pretty subtle. 1 less feat here, 2 more int here, 10 more spell power here, 500 mana more here. (500 mana isn't subtle...) 1 extra DC here.

    I was fighting against, people just generalizing, and wanting people to just actually LIST any buffs from the enchantment pass, that were enhancements alone. But all the loot is changed, the skills are changed, the feats are changed, the enchantments are changed.

    Clearly, we're going to have to look at each category and enumerate it on a per build.

    So.. pure wizard...

    I'm up... way up. I lost some skill points, but not enough to make me cry. I gained so much more than that... Maybe we need a template, with enumerated stats pre-post, after lesser res to actually try and rebuild your characters.

  18. #158
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    I'm liking how many people are saying losing 15 spell power is losing 15% damage, you're losing 15% of BASE damage yes...but a level 20 sorc is going to have more like 180 spell power in their chosen school right now.

    You can tell all the people who main a sorcerer because it's easy, they're the people *****ing because sorcerer might be 10% less overpowered.

  19. #159
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    (1) 36 point build can max out both CON and CHA, and still have 4 build points left over. Instead of putting all 4 in STR (for carrying capacity), put 2 in INT.
    (2) Epic TR gives two more build points - what else is a sorc going to spend those on? Two more STR?
    (3) Nothing wrong with taking away 1 build point from CON and gaining 3 build points for INT for skill points. In some cases, it may not even cost you hp.

    It's a net buff for a true powergamer sorc... You have to count 23 spell-craft ranks for every powergamer sorc.

    So it's a BUFF.
    So OTHER than you 36pt Sorc which is a SMALL FACTION of the population it's a nerf....it's also a nerf to Palemasters (Heal is cross-class), Bards (again Heal is cross-class), Clerics/FvS (Need both Spellcraft and Heal on an already skill starved class)

    I don't care how you slice it either its a nerf to a different stat while buildling or you lose other important skills and all for what seems like a random addition (which FYI this is not what the PnP spellcraft does) it would make more sense for a casters primary attribute (ie. Wis for Cleric, Cha for Sorc or Int for Wiz) to increase spell power or if the devs insist on making it a skill thing have Concentration increase Universal Spell Pen.

    There was PLENTY of fantastic suggestions for how to make Heal and Repair useful (see: NOT mandatory) but the devs just ignored all of them in favor of doing something incredibly random.

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I like the enhancement pass overall and think that it will be the best thing to come out this year. With so much other bad news from Turbine the enhancement pass is something optimistic that the devs should be proud of. That all being said OP I think you totall mischaracterize what a nerf and a buff are. A buff is a nerf to all the classes that do not receive it. For example, the shurikan buff is a nerf to the crossbow users, throwing axe throwers, bow users, etc.

    This is not a question of symantics - this is reality. If build A gets a buff then build B gets played a lot less and can virtually disappear from the game. This has happened throughout the time of DDO. I am never happy a class gets a buff because it means another class got a nerf now sometimes it is nice when a downtrodden class or type of play gets a buff because maybe it puts them on more equal footing and this might enhance build options, but as in the case of the 10k stars buff for example it meant that players begun to have bow shooters with 6 monk levels which was hardly the correct solution.
    uhhhh....thats entirely incorrect a buff to one class in not a nerf.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 07-08-2013 at 11:29 AM.
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  20. #160
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    (1) 36 point build can max out both CON and CHA, and still have 4 build points left over. Instead of putting all 4 in STR (for carrying capacity), put 2 in INT.
    (2) Epic TR gives two more build points - what else is a sorc going to spend those on? Two more STR?
    (3) Nothing wrong with taking away 1 build point from CON and gaining 3 build points for INT for skill points. In some cases, it may not even cost you hp.

    It's a net buff for a true powergamer sorc... You have to count 23 spell-craft ranks for every powergamer sorc.

    So it's a BUFF.
    They are making people invest MORE to get back to the same capability they had before, which in effect is a nerf. The classes that get less skill points are going to be hit harder on this. Youve outlined the work arounds, but work arounds arent fixes. Youre basically shifting the nerf to another area.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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