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  1. #101
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    And if I'm right....Spellcraft will be a Skill, yes? So...What's gonna happen is, everyone's gonna respec their toons when the EP hits, so they're in line with the new Enhancement system. So "yay for Spellcraft!" Right?

    Wrong. Cause there ain't no way to respec your skill points short of reincarnation.
    In the interest of fairness about this, even though I hate the skill point system they're putting in, I think it was varg maybe or someone on lam said they're planning on giving everyone another free lr. This doesn't fix the multi-class levels that have gone bad, but it does fix the skill point thing as far as your point about it goes. That said it means they'll have to drop other skills they want or dump stat points on something to get enough int.

  2. #102
    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    To fix the Toughness Nerf is an easy one:

    Bladeforged: Change their existing Construct Toughness feats to stack 3 times for a total of 60 HP
    Drow: Add a Tier 4 Toughness enhancement that stacks 3 times for a total of 30 HP
    Dwarf: Add +10 HP to their second and fourth +1 CON core abilities for a total of 50 HP
    Elf: Add a Tier 4 Toughness enhancement that stacks 3 times for a total of 30 HP
    Halfling: Add a Tier 4 Toughness enhancement that stacks 3 times for a total of 30 HP
    Half-Elf: Add a Tier 4 Toughness enhancement that stacks 3 times for a total of 30 HP
    Half-Orc: Add +10 HP to all of their core abilities for a total of 50 HP
    Human: Add a Tier 4 Toughness enhancement that stacks 3 times for a total of 30 HP
    Warforged: Change their Tier 1 and Tier 2 Toughness enhancements to stack 3 times for a total of 60 HP, replace their Tier 3 Toughness with another Damage Reduction enhancement, remove the Tier 4 Toughness enhancement completely
    Barbarian: Add +10 HP each Core ability in Frenzied Berserker, Add +1 HP/Point spent in Ravager Tree.

    Sorted It's not difficult
    Good idea! But um...Humans should be able to squeeze more out of Toughness enhancements than an Elf (either type), Half-Elf, or a Halfling. Not as much as WF, Half-Orcs, or Dwarves though. Reason: Humans are just hardier physically than Elves and Halflings. And your front-line fighting classes (Fighter, Barb, Paladin) should get access to Toughness enhancements on top of the Racial ones.
    All that is wrong with DDO, life, taxes, poltics, religion, music, fast food, education, the criminal justice system, the weather, society, the universe, and previously-discontinued-but-now-on-their-way-back snack cakes, is all the fault of Wizards of the Coast. I know this because Fred told me so, and Mind Flayers are smart.

  3. #103
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Yes and no, clerics have their place atm. They're not as good at killing atm however for an efficient raid healer I still like my cleric better than when he was a fvs. He has less sp but still enough when you combine it with aura's and buffs, the benefit of the aura's and bursts can't be overstated if you want a raid healer imo, it makes healing much easier and if that's all you want out of the toon for helping guildies with raids it works out just fine.
    Clerics have there place... As a raid healer...

    *giggles*

    Well my friend, if you believe that's all they're good for I won't try and change your mind...
    ...Suffice it to say, we'll just have to agree to disagree and move on...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  4. #104
    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    In the interest of fairness about this, even though I hate the skill point system they're putting in, I think it was varg maybe or someone on lam said they're planning on giving everyone another free lr. This doesn't fix the multi-class levels that have gone bad, but it does fix the skill point thing as far as your point about it goes. That said it means they'll have to drop other skills they want or dump stat points on something to get enough int.
    OK well, IF they do that,(notice the Big If...not saying you're lying, but...you know...this is Turbine. Yeah. "VIP's get all content free" Turbine. So...we'll see.)...it'll definitely help. Cause otherwise, that shiny new Spellcraft thing will be nothing but a burden till you Reincarnate. So, if we get the LRs, cool.
    All that is wrong with DDO, life, taxes, poltics, religion, music, fast food, education, the criminal justice system, the weather, society, the universe, and previously-discontinued-but-now-on-their-way-back snack cakes, is all the fault of Wizards of the Coast. I know this because Fred told me so, and Mind Flayers are smart.

  5. #105
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Clerics have there place... As a raid healer...

    *giggles*

    Well my friend, if you believe that's all they're good for I won't try and change your mind...
    ...Suffice it to say, we'll just have to agree to disagree and move on...
    It's not that they're only good for that but that I find an advantage to them compared to a fvs in that environment. IMO they make better healers but worse well rounded divines except for maybe battle cleric types who can afford to do something like 2monk 1 fighter compared to fvs who can only splash 2 levels if they want mass heal or implosions ext. They're both good in slightly different ways.

  6. #106
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    OK well, IF they do that,(notice the Big If...not saying you're lying, but...you know...this is Turbine. Yeah. "VIP's get all content free" Turbine. So...we'll see.)...it'll definitely help. Cause otherwise, that shiny new Spellcraft thing will be nothing but a burden till you Reincarnate. So, if we get the LRs, cool.
    Sadly giving everyone a free lr is the only thing I have confidence that they'll get right at this point.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    Good idea! But um...Humans should be able to squeeze more out of Toughness enhancements than an Elf (either type), Half-Elf, or a Halfling. Not as much as WF, Half-Orcs, or Dwarves though. Reason: Humans are just hardier physically than Elves and Halflings. And your front-line fighting classes (Fighter, Barb, Paladin) should get access to Toughness enhancements on top of the Racial ones.
    Ideally, yes, but then you're into giving them +5 HP to a few of their core abilities to give them a slight edge. The list in that post are just the nerf fixes, if they end up with the same as a Half elf or a Halfling, I can live with that.

    Other classes do get Toughness or other HP buffs. Full list of them in previous post, it's just that Barbarians need more than is on the table right now, the others are broadly speaking fine although you need to make some build choices to get the higher HP numbers.

  8. #108
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Sadly giving everyone a free lr is the only thing I have confidence that they'll get right at this point.
    you missed what happened with the last one didn't you

  9. #109
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    you missed what happened with the last one didn't you
    don't crush my last delusion.

  10. #110
    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Ideally, yes, but then you're into giving them +5 HP to a few of their core abilities to give them a slight edge. The list in that post are just the nerf fixes, if they end up with the same as a Half elf or a Halfling, I can live with that.

    Other classes do get Toughness or other HP buffs. Full list of them in previous post, it's just that Barbarians need more than is on the table right now, the others are broadly speaking fine although you need to make some build choices to get the higher HP numbers.
    But Humans can take one more tier of Racial Toughness now than Elves or Halflings. Why wouldn't it make sense to give them something to parallel that? It makes sense that Humans should get more Toughness. They're physically hardier than an Elves or a Halflings.
    All that is wrong with DDO, life, taxes, poltics, religion, music, fast food, education, the criminal justice system, the weather, society, the universe, and previously-discontinued-but-now-on-their-way-back snack cakes, is all the fault of Wizards of the Coast. I know this because Fred told me so, and Mind Flayers are smart.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    But Humans can take one more tier of Racial Toughness now than Elves or Halflings. Why wouldn't it make sense to give them something to parallel that? It makes sense that Humans should get more Toughness. They're physically hardier than an Elves or a Halflings.
    You're preaching to the choir Given the mechanics of a maximum of 3 "ranks" in an Enhancement and assuming that's set in stone, and with the existing Human Enhancements, how would you propose the extra HP are implemented for humans?

  12. #112
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 350zguy View Post
    No... it went up... in EVERY category. Once I took the skill points in Healing/Spellcraft.
    There's the Key line thats 2 skill points you no longer have for other things...you could have taken other skills such as UMD, Concen, Balance, etc. and thats only on a WIz someone like a FvS, Cleric or Sorc who has very little skill points or Bards who want to raid heal but can't because Heal is cross-class for them. Remove Spellcraft...take the far better suggestions made by the community for Repair and Heal than boost the amount of Spellpower that enhancement tree's grant or make Concentration (a skill all casters take anyway) increase Spell Power...or maybe have a spellcasters casting stat increase Spellpower (ie. A Sorc with 31 Cha will get 31 USP) those all make far more sense than forcing people to choose a new skill...they reworked toughness and HP bonuses because it was making the feat madatoryt because mandatory is bad but than added new mandatory skills for all casters
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 07-06-2013 at 09:29 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    There's the Key line thats 2 skill points you no longer have for other things...you could have taken other skills such as UMD, Concen, Balance, etc. and thats only on a WIz someone like a FvS, Cleric or Sorc who has very little skill points or Bards who want to raid heal but can't because Heal is cross-class for them. Remove Spellcraft...take the far better suggestions made by the community for Repair and Heal than boost the amount of Spellpower that enhancement tree's grant or make Concentration (a skill all casters take anyway) increase Spell Power...or maybe have a spellcasters casting stat increase Spellpower (ie. A Sorc with 31 Cha will get 31 USP) those all make far more sense than forcing people to choose a new skill...they reworked toughness and HP bonuses because it was making the feat madatoryt because mandatory is bad but than added new mandatory skills for all casters
    Well it was only down 12...

    So slotting a +15 ring would counter act it, without spending a single skill point.

    Slotting a +20 heal item would take me up 50 neg spell power...

    Slotting a +20 spell craft ring, will take me to +30....

    So, taking into account new itemization. I think we're going to end up even higher... +3 skill tomes, etc...

    .... Follow the builds...

    Splashes are probably foo bar. Unless they give everyone 5 spell power per character level IF they have a caster level. That would counteract the really bad diminishing for multi-class.

  14. #114
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    Maybe I missed it somewhere but it seems nobody has mentioned the obvious: none of the positive changes you have listed require the new UI or a major revamp of how enhancements work overall. All the little buffs here & there, nerfs here & there, new prestige lines, etc could have easily been added into the current system.

    The only real buff you get from the new system is the lower min class lvl requirement allowing easy multiclassing access to nearly all prestige abilities. I list it as a buff since some will see it as that but I personally see it as a huge nerf to pure class characters and the various new limitations on how you spend your AP as a huge nerf to customization in general.

    Sure there will be powerful new options opening up but guess what? Those few new 12/4/4 or 8/6/6 builds will not just become the new flavor builds, they will become so much better than any other builds they will be the assumed default and anyone not using them will be shunted to the side. The system needs major tweaks to avoid this situation.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    There's the Key line thats 2 skill points you no longer have for other things...you could have taken other skills such as UMD, Concen, Balance, etc. and thats only on a WIz someone like a FvS, Cleric or Sorc who has very little skill points or Bards who want to raid heal but can't because Heal is cross-class for them.
    Yeah.

    And now to get the same as we had before, we'll have to spend stat points, skill points and maybe even start to slot gear or buy skill tomes from store. Yay? How is that not a nerf, I don't know.
    <seemingly offensive Army of Darkness quote>

  16. #116

    Default Did you forget some gear?

    Quote Originally Posted by 350zguy View Post
    Pure Wizzy:
    86 --> 174+
    220 --> 208-
    148 --> 196+
    208 --> 196-
    126 --> 174+
    86 --> 174+
    198 --> 217+
    86 --> 158+
    86 --> 174+
    126 -->151+
    -----------
    1370 --> 1822
    Live --> Lam
    Very odd. Did you forget some gear or something (the "86 --> 174+" looks fishy).

    For me, Live->Lam, using schools that actually matter to me, I get:


    Acid 214 214 0
    Cold 218 211 -7
    Elec 208 211 3
    Fire 218 214 -4
    Neg. 241 210 -31


    Worse, crit multipliers and chances now drop, so with max/emp and tod set, I have effective spell power of 830 (live) vs. 703 on Lam.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    You're preaching to the choir Given the mechanics of a maximum of 3 "ranks" in an Enhancement and assuming that's set in stone, and with the existing Human Enhancements, how would you propose the extra HP are implemented for humans?
    Give them more per rank or more for the last rank.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hajutze View Post
    Give them more per rank or more for the last rank.
    So 15 HP per rank? That would mean 3 AP per rank to keep it consistent with 1 AP per 5 HP? You've then created an enhancement that costs 3 AP per rank which would be the only one in the whole system, or you end up giving more than 5 HP per AP which means you're getting more per AP than the other races and classes.

    Adding 5 HP to 2 or 3 of the core abilities could be a solution.

    Is this thread still about buffs btw? I've lost track.

    The more you look at how you can turn these things into buffs, the more convinced I become that enhancements should be based on the total AP spend instead of points in an individual tree, it just gives so much more flexibility to builds. You get to choose your Tier 5 abilities at level 12 anyway, so I don't see any problem with having access to every other "lower" tier enhancement freely.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjw View Post
    Very odd. Did you forget some gear or something (the "86 --> 174+" looks fishy).

    For me, Live->Lam, using schools that actually matter to me, I get:


    Acid 214 214 0
    Cold 218 211 -7
    Elec 208 211 3
    Fire 218 214 -4
    Neg. 241 210 -31


    Worse, crit multipliers and chances now drop, so with max/emp and tod set, I have effective spell power of 830 (live) vs. 703 on Lam.
    We should compare characters nakid... Why? Because anything not nakid is an equipment change, or something to that effect. So if we're talking enhancements... and the Skill change to spell power... Lets compare.

    100% naked I do have Greater Heroism... So that pads these numbers by 4! Damn skill boosts!
    http://i.imgur.com/aJn6U7J.jpg

    http://i.imgur.com/TpbbQSQ.jpg

    So.... There you have it... Same character, after lesser res, re-picking appropriate feats/skills, live vs lam.

    As you can clearly see... More spell power, more mana, more DCs, spell like abilities, more of nearly everything.

    I'm not saying that there isn't problems with the skill/enhancement/gear tweaks. I'm just saying that people are not being accurate when they say you lose everything, everything goes down, nothing goes up, blah blah blah.
    Last edited by 350zguy; 07-07-2013 at 03:27 PM.

  20. #120
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I have to agree, there are a handful of uber synergies like Ninja Spy Shadow Fade + grandmaster Monk Earth stance + Epic SoS +Kensei 5 crititcal range enhacement that are serving as the "shiney oohhh ahhhh" that are making many ignore what's being lost. These builds (there are several) are so broken that we already know they will be nerfed from orbit in short order. But in the mean time they serve as a functional "slight of hand" distraction (though I believe they are accidental and not cynical intentional bait and switch on Turbines part, I've had my doubts about that at times).
    This is so insanely broken it's not funny. I plan on abusing the hell out of this, it'll be awesome.

    Then Turbine will eventually nerf this because it is insanely over-powered and the forum nerd-rage will be glorious.

    Trolling . . . it's a growth industry.

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