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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zirun View Post
    While I'm here, is there anybody that can point me to a specific, currently workable build that would be completely unplayable after the enhancement pass (that isn't reliant on something that is bugged/clearly not WAI like that caster build I read about a while ago that abuses stacking Druid spell power enhancements on some weird 10/8/2 or somesuch split)?
    Rangers losing devotion is a big hit to their self-sufficiency, which for me makes them no longer viable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    IEdit: Frankly, I don't get why so many people on the forums are wetting themselves over a drop of 20 HP when I frequently run into players who have an excess of 800+ HP. I've seen tanks with over 1300 HP. Is 20 going to make or break the game? No. Not by a long shot.
    This demonstrates a lack of understanding. Those 1300 HP builds have 1300 HP because enhancements give them a % increase to HP. Losing toughness enhancements will be a major hit to their total, well beyond 20.

  2. #42
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    This demonstrates a lack of understanding. Those 1300 HP builds have 1300 HP because enhancements give them a % increase to HP. Losing toughness enhancements will be a major hit to their total, well beyond 20.
    Would love to actually see some numbers beyond some vague statements about how deadly this change is to multiclass builds.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    Would love to actually see some numbers beyond some vague statements about how deadly this change is to multiclass builds.
    I don't recall saying anything about multiclass builds. I explained that your simplistic "20 HP won't effect 1300 HP builds" is misinformed because they get those 1300 HP by getting a % increase to their max hp, meaning every 10 from toughness enhancements is worth more than 10 HP.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoBlackChaos View Post
    Less lag with more people playing. Turbine pay some money and upgrade your servers
    They pointed out in the "stealth" thread, that the changes to the combat engine will reduce load on the server as it calculates character positions etc.

    So, less lag, (hopefully) but not because the enhancement pass, because they are re-working how mobs detect players.

  5. #45
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    Tell me something:

    Why should a character be able to function in range AND in melee AND be able to self-heal fairly well AND be able to survive hits on EE's? I don't know of any game outside of single-player XBOX garbage where you can min-max in virtually every area like that. It sounds like you got way too much for no cost beyond your "years of research". And while I hate to admonish you, I can't help but feel little sympathy for your incredibly niche "catch all" sounding build needing to be reworked.
    Really? REALLY? You just answered your own question. I can do all of these things "fairly well". And I don't survive many hits in EE, I avoid many hits in EE. Which is part of why my build will be nerfed. if I went with my current class split I'd have to choose between heal amp, or Shadow Fade. One of which is, and should stay a core monk feature. Not be pushed into one of the other trees.

    And I did pay a cost. I don't have max DPS like say, the Sithali Build. I don't have really enough HP like some of the other builds I've tried or seen people use. I don't have the self heals to do what some builds like the Juggernaught do. I don't have the saves that the Pyrene build does. My build is built perfectly for me and my play style. A bit of everything all rolled up into one package; Staying true to what the Ranger class has always imo been: Jack of all trades, master of none.

    I play a very, very fine line on my build between a very good build, and a very gimp build. and I'd venture to say that in the hands of any other player it would not function to it's top abilities. And I say this because I designed the build with my exact playstyle in mind. It is "My" build in every sense of the word, not just a build I copied off the forums.

    So yes, while those 3-4 years of time spent in game, and on the forums doing research, running numbers, and trying to perfect my gameplay might not mean much to you(And I wouldn't expect them to) They mean a whole hell of a lot to me.

    EDIT:
    I'd also add that almost all other variants of this class split Ranger/Monk/Arti/Fighter or what have you will out DPS my build, and have more HP, or better saves than my build. So no, this isn't some "catch all" build.
    Last edited by TheLegendOfAra; 07-06-2013 at 03:34 AM.
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  6. #46
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    I'm rather excited for the potential of Henshin Mystic to bolster Season's Herald druids to provide druids with more spell power
    Yes because druids were so strong they needed less spwr and a stat/skill point tax to stay where they were / get a little ahead if they wanted to stay pure. Sorry but needing henshin is a nerf to pure druids.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    Tell me something:

    Why should a character be able to function in range AND in melee AND be able to self-heal fairly well AND be able to survive hits on EE's? I don't know of any game outside of single-player XBOX garbage where you can min-max in virtually every area like that. It sounds like you got way too much for no cost beyond your "years of research". And while I hate to admonish you, I can't help but feel little sympathy for your incredibly niche "catch all" sounding build needing to be reworked.
    Here's the real reason you like it, it nerfs people that run ee's which you don't like them doing successfuly. You fail at them and can't stand that others don't so you want them nerfed. Tell me I'm wrong.

  7. #47
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    Would love to actually see some numbers beyond some vague statements about how deadly this change is to multiclass builds.
    Where did he mention multiclass builds? He was not vague he said why it would be a loss, the toughness feat is not just 20hp its 20hp then all the enhancements from racial lines and class lines then that gets increased by abilities like DOS and SD that give extra hp based on % of hp.

    most of those 1300hp builds I see are often pure or only a shallow splash in another/ or other classes, what does multiclassing have to do with it?

    Excuse me what game have you been playing for all these years? Do you know about racial and class hp enhancements or have you just found that out?

    It also makes me wonder about how you where attacking someone playing a very specialized and marginal build earlier. It can range, and melee and has some self healing and can avoid some hits on EE. And I bet after years of playing, TRs, gearing, not just anyone can jump on his character and make it work ala easy button in EE's.

    What is wrong with been able to do some damage with range and melee and to have some self healing? Isnt that just your standard ranger? They get the feats for ranged and melee combate. Have a blue bar and with a feat and some enhancement points can get some decent self healing.Add in past lives, gear and EDs it can be a pretty strong character. What the hell is wrong with that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Y

    Here's the real reason you like it, it nerfs people that run ee's which you don't like them doing successfuly. You fail at them and can't stand that others don't so you want them nerfed. Tell me I'm wrong.
    I think you might be right there, oh noes someone has a character that is actually *useful* to a group and has a chance of contributing to EE's!!!!! *SCREAMS FOR NERF!!!!!!!!*

    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    S
    4) Many casters that didn't get SLAs before get them now.

    More positives from other posters:
    That sounds nice, do bards get them? *rubs hands in glee*

    Um iv'e been seeing a lot of smug gloating on the forums about FOTM *builds* being *nerfed* but from what ive seen and it might be outdated it won't really effect as much one of the so called FOTM builds that has been screamed about the most a.k.a the jug. Or has something changed? otherwise I don't really see why those kinds of people with that attitude would be so *happy* about nerfs to FOTM builds.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    And I did pay a cost. I don't have max DPS like say, the Sithali Build. I don't have really enough HP like some of the other builds I've tried or seen people use. I don't have the self heals to do what some builds like the Juggernaught do. I don't have the saves that the Pyrene build does. My build is built perfectly for me and my play style. A bit of everything all rolled up into one package; Staying true to what the Ranger class has always imo been: Jack of all trades, master of none.

    I play a very, very fine line on my build between a very good build, and a very gimp build. and I'd venture to say that in the hands of any other player it would not function to it's top abilities. And I say this because I designed the build with my exact playstyle in mind. It is "My" build in every sense of the word, not just a build I copied off the forums.

    So yes, while those 3-4 years of time spent in game, and on the forums doing research, running numbers, and trying to perfect my gameplay might not mean much to you(And I wouldn't expect them to) They mean a whole hell of a lot to me..
    SHAME!!! Shame on you sir for playing/wanting to play a half decent character and experimenting and multiclassing. Being able to do some range and melee, some self healing and even putting in some defense there. Shame!!!! people like you with their sense of entitlement to half decent characters and the ability to build outside the vanila box are some of worst things about this game!!!

    This enhancement pass really has me excited because finally I think my dreams for this game might come true. It might make builds and ideas like yours harder, much harder to implement. Finally people might be forced to play the game the way I want *everyone else* to play it!!! Healers will have to just mainly heal, melee dps will have to melee dps. Tanks will only be able to tank, hopefully they wont have a switch-to melee dps mode. And range dps will have to have that ranged weapon glued to their hand 24/7. And you will absolutely *need* a jhealer, none of this self healing rubbish *fingers crossed* Oh and I really hope it curbs the power of those over powered casters!!! Finally Finally I will be able to find a group to lord it over!!! no more soloing endless heroic casuals for this guy after the enhancement pass!!!!!! Muuaaahhahahahahahahaha!!!
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 07-06-2013 at 05:18 AM.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    Tell me something:

    Why should a character be able to function in range AND in melee AND be able to self-heal fairly well AND be able to survive hits on EE's? I don't know of any game outside of single-player XBOX garbage where you can min-max in virtually every area like that. It sounds like you got way too much for no cost beyond your "years of research". And while I hate to admonish you, I can't help but feel little sympathy for your incredibly niche "catch all" sounding build needing to be reworked.
    Because it's well-thought out, well-built, well-geared and most importantly well-played.

    What you describe though is something that is easily achievable without any major effort on any melee build.

    If you don't understand how this is possible, then I'm not convinced that you're in a good position to judge what is an improvement from the new enhancement pass, if you don't really understand the current game.

    I've said it before in other threads, but let me repeat it again, the enhancement pass is a massive opportunity to add diversity, flavour and fun for every class and present a cleaner UI for new players. You don't achieve this by giving with one hand and taking away with the other.

    There are a lot of great things about the new enhancements, and whether people appreciate it or not, a massive amount of work has been done on them.

    But the worry is that nothing is being done to change a few fundamental problems with them. And these problems aren't unsolvable, the real frustration is that they're tantalisingly close to having something that everyone will benefit from.

    Assuming that the go-live date for these with the expansion is set in stone, then what we really need is an indication that the go-live date won't be the end of the enhancement pass. I'd like to see a dev diary confirming what the "next" enhancements will be ... Acolyte of Skin? Warpriest? Divine Avenger, Wildmage, racial class trees as initially discussed.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    Edit: Frankly, I don't get why so many people on the forums are wetting themselves over a drop of 20 HP when I frequently run into players who have an excess of 800+ HP. I've seen tanks with over 1300 HP. Is 20 going to make or break the game? No. Not by a long shot. At least Heroic Durability giving 5 more HP at level 1 helps mitigate the drop AND is a direct buff to every race/class that did not have access to Toughness enhancements.
    You're ignoring all the Racial and Class enhancements that Toughness unlocks, which is more than 20 HPs.

    And sure, if you're looking at endgame builds with 800 to 1300, those extra 20+ HP mean nothing... But those extra HP from the enhancements can mean ALOT while leveling a character.

    This tends to be a huge blindside for many players and even Devs, just because it means little in Epics, it doesn't mean it's completely useless.

  10. #50
    2014 DDO Players Council ishr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    8. Less lag with less people playing.
    yep the way this is going, both the attitude of the devs towards player comments and the massive nerfs to support classes... it's just gonna be a domino effect. good job, lets see how far you get without heals or casters to support you.

  11. #51
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    If it helps the debate about who wins and who loses in the HP changes, here's a list of all of the new Toughness and HP enhancements that I pulled together from the current and new enhancements. Haven't finished rechecking all of the new trees and enhancements, so is possible something has been missed out.

    Code:
    Race /Class                 Current        New        Diff        +HP%
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Heroic Durability                20         25         + 5
    Improved Heroic Durability Max    0         20(i)      +20
    Improved Heroic Durability Min    0         10(ii)     +10
    
    Bladeforged                      40         20         -20
    Drow                             20          0         -20
    Dwarf                            40         30(iii)    -10        + 4%
    Elf                              20          0         -20
    Halfling                         20          0         -20
    Half-Elf                         30          0         -30
    Half-Orc                         20(iv)      0         -20
    Human                            30          0         -30
    Warforged                        40         40           0
    
    Artificer                         0          0           0
    Barbarian                        40         20(v)      -20
    Bard                              0         30(vi)     +30
    Cleric                            0         15(vii)    +15
    Druid                            40         72(viii)   +32
    Favored Soul                     40         15(ix)     -25
    Fighter Min                      40         15(x)      -25
    Fighter Max                      40         75(xi)     +35        +20%
    Half-Elf Barbarian Dilettante	 20         15         - 5
    Monk                             20         35(xii)    +15        + 3%
    Paladin                          40         79(xiii)   +39        +20%
    Ranger                            0          0           0
    Rogue                             0          0           0
    Sorcerer                          0          0           0
    Wizard                           20         15(xiv)   - 5
    
    (i)    +5 HP per 5 CLASS levels, max = 5/15, 10/10 or 5/5/10
    (ii)   +5 HP per 5 CLASS levels, min = 4/4/12
    (iii)  Racial enhancement Child of the Mountain = +4% Max HP
    (iv)   Should never have been 20, min 30 or more likely 40
    (v)    Frenzied Berserker core abilities = 20 HP
    (vi)   Warchanter core abilities = 30 HP
    (Vii)  Protection Tier 1 Toughness = 15 HP
    (viii) Nature's Warrior Tree = 1 HP / Point spent, max 80, Core abilities do not count for HP, need FEAT: Dodge
    (ix)   Protection Tier 1 Toughness = 15 HP
    (x)    Kensai Tier 2 Ascetic Training = 15 HP
    (xi)   Stalwart Defender Tree = 1 HP / Point spent, max 80, Core abilities do not count for HP, need FEAT: Improved Shield Bash
    (xii)  Shintao Tier 2 Conditioning = 15 HP, Shintao Tier 5 Meditation of War = +3% HP in Earth Stance, Henshin Mystic Tier 1 Way of the Patient Tortoise = 20 HP at 15
    (xiii) Sacred Defender Tree = 1 HP / Point spent, max 80, Core abilities do not count for HP
    (xiv)  Pale Master Tier 1 Deathless Vigor = 15 HP, difference is now an Archmage can select from it too, so they'll benefit
    There are winners and losers. Some of the winners need to spend a lot of points in a single tree to be winners though. And dwarves and monks have an option to get an additonal +HP% similiar to fighter and pally defender.

    So the worst loser is a Half-elf Barbarian who in a best case scenario lose 50 from their race and class, but gains back 25 from Heroic Durability and Improved Heroic Durability if they stay pure or multi-class in multiples of 5.

  12. #52
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    PMs gain about 10 neg spell power.
    I'm not sure where you got this number from but actually any existing characters transfered over take a HUGE hit to spellpower since the don't have spellcraft which means more skill points "100% required" which means less customization...for example my Necro/Cold Specced Wizard/Fighter went from 138 Cold Spell power -> 76 Cold Spell Power and 118 Neg Spell Power -> 91 Spellpower. I had the Necro Tree almost entirely maxed (minus the useless raise dead clicky and the equally useless skele knight line) than pumped a few points into Archmage for good measure

    Spellcraft (and the changes to repair, heal and perform) was a terrible idea...if the devs insisted on linking skills to spellpower somehow they should have applied it to concentration...it still makes sense, ALL Casters get it as a class skill and the majority of casters put points intoit. Instead my PM Wizard has to cross-class heal to get neg energy and also find space for spellcraft to boost my cold spec. Sorcs are even worse off because they have less skill points (since Int is WIz main stat) AND Spellcraft is an Int based skill. Bards will no longer be able to raid heal as heal is a cross-class skill to them. Clerics that like to cast offensively have the same issue as Sorcs. Overall it's just a really bad idea and should be dropped entirely in favor of increasing the spellpower given by enhancements.


    In short either make concentration increase Universal Spell Power or increase the amount of Spellpower granted by caster prestiges either way drop the changes to heal, repair, spellcraft and perform...Perform was fine the way it was...plenty of GREAT ideas were suggested to make heal and repair more useful (see: NOT mandatory) and Spellcraft need not be added (nor is that how the skill spellcraft functions)
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 07-06-2013 at 09:07 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
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  13. #53
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    ... All that negativism. There is some good stuff. For example:

    Shuriken users:
    - ninja spy tree gives a shuriken expertise like effect - so if you have 30 dex you get the 30% chance to throw another shuriken 2 times (so you can throw up to 3 per strike)
    - excellent poison damage (again ninja spy)
    - a lot of extra sneak attack damage (4 dices from ninja spy and 3 more from halfling)
    - ninja spy gives a free crippling strike
    - +1 threat range from halfling

    You can sneak 50% faster (with ranger, monk or rogue) so you're sneak speed goes from 50 up to 75%. With the new mechanics I was able to literally walk circles around the monsters from a lv18 quest with no equipment whatsoever and relying only on my hide/walk silently skills (from dex + points + enhancements).

    Deepwood sniper has a lv6 ability/clicky attack which after a hit (there are 2 possible choices a melee and a ranged attack) makes the target bluffed for 4s (with a CD 6s) WITHOUT A NEED FOR A BLUFF SKILL AND NO SAVES INVOLVED. You get extra PBS range and max Archer focus stacks (up to 25).

    For DEX build lovers - lv3 rogue gives you DEX to DMG/ATK for staves, daggers, kukri and if you have weapon finesse - for every melee weapon which uses your dex for attack modofier. 3 monk gives you DEX to DMG/ATK for slash/pierce weapons you are centered with (shurikens too). Halfling gives DEX to DMG/ATK for shurikens. Deepwood sniper and Tempest have DEX to DMG/ATK as well

    =================================
    =================================

    And if you want something a bit more broken - Fighters can run around in Great Axe, centered and with full monk stances even with 1 level of monk.

    1 monk shintao gives you a defensive stance (for 6 AP) which gives 35 PRR, 5% dodge, 75% TGen and -40% offhand attack chance. 2 more AP and you get an intimidate ability which uses concentration instead. A 2nd level of monk and 3 more AP gives you 15 more PRR
    Last edited by Hajutze; 07-06-2013 at 09:22 AM.

  14. #54
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    Someone suggested it, so I figured eh, why not right? There's no point in not getting a complete picture at any rate. If anyone has any to add, I'll be happy to stick them in here.



    3) Numerous classes are getting new Prestige lines: Artificer (Arcanotechnician), Barbarian (Occult Slayer, Ravager), Cleric (Divine Disciple, Protector), Favoured Soul (Protector), and Monk (Henshin Mystic). This presents new, never before seen multi-class opportunities, even if old ones need to be tweaked.
    Just because classes get new prestiges doesnt mean they will be better than old ones that are getting nerfed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    In every online game I've played, from MMOs to MOBAs like LoL, if one thing is always being taken by the majority of the players, it's bound to get nerfed, simple as that. Because there was such a huge focus on taking Toughness and all those Toughness Enhancements, it's only understandable that it get nerfed to the point that only classes that SHOULD have HP can take those enhancements.
    I'm sure you were exaggerating, but I was wondering which classes shouldn't have HP

    But to my serious point: the redo of the enhancement UI was originally conceived in order to make the game friendlier for the new/casual players. Apparently there are enough of them that this is a concern. How will these same players react when they now are dying more frequently because of the lack of HP (as ppl pointed out not just the 20)? Sure there are characters with 700-800HP and for them 20HP is a drop in the bucket. However that is not MOST players. And we need to keep in mind how many people think 20HP is good enough to go out of their way to get a False Life / Vitality item. So its not as small a thing as some people would like to pretend.

  16. #56
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    Will there be new exciting stuff? Yes, I believe so.
    Will there be advantages in some of this compared to now? Yes, I believe so.

    But I'm concerned that making such a huge change so far into a game's life will make some players just go for new and shinier games if they have to relearn everything, anyway.
    For me personally, I do not look forward to having to TR 15 or more toons in order that they keep the power level they have now.

    And some of the design decisions seem directly, well, designed to combat innovative building and serve to pigeonhole characters into roles. Which I find sad, since one of the great points of DDO is that it isn't just tank-healer-dps like nearly every other game out there.

    I suppose we shouldn't cry doom until it's here. But... if the past is anything to go by, then no, we will not get to hit that ball this time either. The stuff now on lam will likely go live with only minor changes - when what we need are fundamental changes to what the design direction is.

    EDIT: I'm not really that concerned with +/- 20 hp from toughness changes (though I think they went overboard - from must-have feat to nearly useless). It's more the overall feel of the stuff, the need to redo more or less all the characters I play, the pigeonholing of roles.... and the amount of new clickies and shortterm buffs that will likely make me a world class piano player in a few months... or get me carpal tunnel. One or the other, anyway.
    Last edited by Dandonk; 07-06-2013 at 10:35 AM. Reason: More stuff
    <seemingly offensive Army of Darkness quote>

  17. #57
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    It is but it seems like a few users would rather try to start a flame war and get it locked so that the only active thread is a "doom and gloom" post that emphasizes only one side of the Enhancement Pass and none of the good stuff.
    The hypocrisy shown by the doom and gloom crowd in this thread is HILARIOUS!

    Wish I could share the PM I got from a doommer to emphasize that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoBlackChaos View Post
    Less lag with more people playing. Turbine pay some money and upgrade your servers
    Nein Nein Nein! You never need more than 64k of RAM! :P

    *Edit* first time logging in in a long time since the forums were broken and my username is fixed! yay!
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  19. #59
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    Shintao Monks (i.e. light monks) get pos. en. spellpower.

    PMs get a pet that grows stronger with wizard levels.

    Barbarians have a PrE tree that increases their survivability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    The hypocrisy shown by the doom and gloom crowd in this thread is HILARIOUS!

    Wish I could share the PM I got from a doommer to emphasize that point.
    What hypocrisy? Most of the people who disagree in this thread are simply disagreeing that some of the "Buffs" listed are actually buffs.

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