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  1. #1
    Community Member RavenStormclaw's Avatar
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    Default Should artificers get access to evasion?

    Was thinking about this the other day. Should they? They are a class with inherent trapping abilities. Wouldn't a means to avoid said traps make sense? To me it does...with some caveats. First in deference to our rouge friends it would not be an auto-granted feat. It would have to be bought with a feat slot. Second, no improved evasion again in deference to our rogue friends who, by all rights, be the height and experts at evading. I see it as one of several ways:

    1) just be in the class feat list that artificers have...to easy as far as I'm concerned

    2) be in the class list only but with a level and feat requirement. I would think level 10 and either insightful reflexes feat or a base dex of 17 (numbers subject to discussion)

    3) be selectable any time once level and feat requirement meant as outlined above.

    personally I think option 2 should be required. It's costs either two feats or one feat slot and some build points to get. Not cheap by any means.

    thoughts?

  2. #2
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    If Artificers get evasion, then can rogues also get a blue bar with flame turrets and blade barriers too?

    No, artis shouldnt get evasion. If they want it though, they can take 2 monk or rogue levels, or use the Shadowdancer ED, if they can manage to get their reflex saves high enough to make it worthwhile (well, they can just use insightful reflexes).

    Giving artis evasion would just mean that no one would ever make a rogue again.

  3. #3

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    Yes

  4. #4
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    And weapon specialization too. After all they use weapons so it only makes sense.

    /sarcasm

    No, they shouldn't get something just because it would be useful for them to have it.

  5. #5
    Community Member Phaeton_Seraph's Avatar
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    I don't really know if it "should."

    We have two classes with some overlap. And neither are perfect.

    Rogues annoy me, because the general play style of people on the server (the same style that leads to the Max Con builds), makes it so that if you try to be good at two of the rogue's purposes, you're going to be weak in another... and squishy. At least in a first life.

    If Artificers had evasion, I wouldn't really see the point of Rogues at all, except maybe for Assassin builds.

    For my part, I've decided to try and move my Arties away from trapping, at least on the disabling end. I'm trying to stick to an archer/caster build, in these builds, the medium armour feat makes more sense.


    There's already a lot of overlap between a Rogue Mechanic and an Artie. I don't think having more overlap would be useful to keeping two separate classes.
    Last edited by Phaeton_Seraph; 08-03-2013 at 10:36 PM.

  6. #6
    Community Member TheNameIwasntB4's Avatar
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    Default Eliminate rogues, make all rogues artificers

    Problem solved.

    There will no longer be rogue characters. All rogue character will now be artificers. No artificers will have evasion.

    But no one can complain how rogues have evasion and arties don't because rogues don't exist.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDOisFree View Post
    If Artificers get evasion, then can rogues also get a blue bar with flame turrets and blade barriers too?

    No, artis shouldnt get evasion. If they want it though, they can take 2 monk or rogue levels, or use the Shadowdancer ED, if they can manage to get their reflex saves high enough to make it worthwhile (well, they can just use insightful reflexes).

    Giving artis evasion would just mean that no one would ever make a rogue again.

    Not that I think Artificers should get evasion but, if they did it would not mean that no one would ever make a rogue again.

    I see many rogues when I am running EE content that are extremely deadly. I don't think everyone would just jump on Artificer if it had evasion.


    that being said. I would not spend 2 feats to get evasion on an Artificer.

    on my pure Artificer life I did not use insightful reflexes and rarely had any trouble at all with traps if you know how to avoid getting hit to begin with which comes with experience as a trapper. As far as needing evasion for fighting mobs there are a few quests when it would be most useful but not entirely necessary (ETK comes to mind) however, a lot of spells that can be evaded can also be avoided. As a pure Artificer using repeaters one would think that you'd be far enough from combat in most cases to dodge incoming spells.

  8. #8
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    Add evasion as an epic feat...
    then evasion becomes accessible to everyone without forcing a 2 monk or 2 rogue splash.

    rogues still have improved evasion,
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  9. #9
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    They already have acces to evasion via multiclassing or using specific ED.

    Noone is forcing anyone to stay pure.
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  10. #10
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    Ive played a 20 Arti, and an 18 Arti/2 Rogue. There really isn't any comparison....Evasion makes way more difference than the last two levels of Arti, capstone be damned. And the capstones from the EP preview weren't any better, either. There really is no reason to go pure, compared to splashing Rogue. And Shadowdancer is not really a viable option for Artis either - you cant give up the CC of Shiradi, the DPS of FotW, or the casting boosts of Magister/Draconic, just for evasion...you lose less taking the splash than devoting your ED to it.

    So really, the question is really better framed as "should Artis get access to Evasion without splashing, or should Arti just be an 18-level class"?

    Incidentally, Evasion isn't all Rogues have on Artis...Rogues get Improved Evasion and other special Rogue feats. They get sneak die, which means their DPS can be way better than Artis. Artis get blue bar and a pet and runearms...but the pet doesn't scale well into Epic, and the spells only go up to L6 so they'll never have the DC of Sorc/Wiz, meaning they also don't scale well.

    So, in Heroic, yeah Artis rule (but that's not exactly news). Endgame, though, all you're looking at is blue bar self heals and a runearm, vs sneak attack die and improved evasion (and assassinate, if you go with that PrE). IMO that's a pretty close tradeoff, so I don't think making Evasion available for Artis (even just as an Epic feat) is unbalancing or makes Rogues obsolete.

    Really, I think Evasion should be an Epic feat for all classes. Its way too useful, to the point of almost being required (hence all the /2 rogue and /2 monk builds), and no other single skill makes you take a 2 level splash just to acquire it (except maybe 2 pally, but only on sorcs with high CHA already).
    Last edited by droid327; 08-04-2013 at 12:45 AM.

  11. #11
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Ive played a 20 Arti, and an 18 Arti/2 Rogue. There really isn't any comparison....Evasion makes way more difference than the last two levels of Arti, capstone be damned. And the capstones from the EP preview weren't any better, either. There really is no reason to go pure, compared to splashing Rogue. And Shadowdancer is not really a viable option for Artis either - you cant give up the CC of Shiradi, the DPS of FotW, or the casting boosts of Magister/Draconic, just for evasion...you lose less taking the splash than devoting your ED to it.

    So really, the question is really better framed as "should Artis get access to Evasion without splashing, or should Arti just be an 18-level class"?

    Incidentally, Evasion isn't all Rogues have on Artis...Rogues get Improved Evasion and other special Rogue feats. They get sneak die, which means their DPS can be way better than Artis. Artis get blue bar and a pet and runearms...but the pet doesn't scale well into Epic, and the spells only go up to L6 so they'll never have the DC of Sorc/Wiz, meaning they also don't scale well.

    So, in Heroic, yeah Artis rule (but that's not exactly news). Endgame, though, all you're looking at is blue bar self heals and a runearm, vs sneak attack die and improved evasion (and assassinate, if you go with that PrE). IMO that's a pretty close tradeoff, so I don't think making Evasion available for Artis (even just as an Epic feat) is unbalancing or makes Rogues obsolete.

    Really, I think Evasion should be an Epic feat for all classes. Its way too useful, to the point of almost being required (hence all the /2 rogue and /2 monk builds), and no other single skill makes you take a 2 level splash just to acquire it (except maybe 2 pally, but only on sorcs with high CHA already).
    Hey - why are sneak attack dice so good? I mean, they don't multiply b/c of crits, so they're just additive. You can get that in any number of ways.

    I built my artie around Needle and FotW, and she pumps out a ridiculous amount of damage when she crits - 2500 + (plus boulder toss plus rune arm), so I focused on adding damage that multiplies, like seeker, artifact bonuses, etc.

    But I'm curious how you do it.

    Thanks.

  12. #12
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RavenStormclaw View Post
    Was thinking about this the other day. Should they? They are a class with inherent trapping abilities. Wouldn't a means to avoid said traps make sense? To me it does...with some caveats. First in deference to our rouge friends it would not be an auto-granted feat. It would have to be bought with a feat slot. Second, no improved evasion again in deference to our rogue friends who, by all rights, be the height and experts at evading. I see it as one of several ways:

    1) just be in the class feat list that artificers have...to easy as far as I'm concerned

    2) be in the class list only but with a level and feat requirement. I would think level 10 and either insightful reflexes feat or a base dex of 17 (numbers subject to discussion)

    3) be selectable any time once level and feat requirement meant as outlined above.

    personally I think option 2 should be required. It's costs either two feats or one feat slot and some build points to get. Not cheap by any means.

    thoughts?
    No, I don't think they should have evasion. As most write below, what would be the point of rogue after that? I like that my artie can do so much, disarm traps and yet they're still dangerous to her - lots of flavor there, with a very, very capable build.

  13. #13
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    No reason to add Evasion as a standard class feat on Arti's - if you really want it on your build then you need to multi-class. Build choices and class choices are half of the fun of the game - if you just give every class the option to do anything then there is no choice.

    Evasion as an Epic Feat is an interesting option.

  14. #14
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    No.
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  15. #15
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    You can multiclass for it.
    You can use ED for it in epic levels.
    You can use an item and stay in water all day.

    There are already options. Each of them has a downside, of course, but that's how it should be for an ability this powerful, IMO.

    EDIT: I don't think making it a feat is a good idea. This would make it the new toughness, a must have feat for everyone.
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  16. #16
    Community Member Kawai's Avatar
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    not a chance in Hades.

    spoiled little Artis. :/

  17. #17
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    Wouldn't it be easier to just get rid of the Artificer class? They are rather redundant, after all.

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  18. #18
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    My main character is currently at arti and staying there for a while. I took 2 levels of rogue and 2 levels of monk for evasion, 2 feats and high saves. This is not the jug build, but I found that split useful a long time ago.

    The bad thing is that I only get 2 level 6 spells so I rotate between BB/Deadly, Recon/Deadly and Recon/BB. The lost rune arm damage isn't that bad, but still a factor.

    Overall I like the split much better than pure Arti 20, although I'll have to see what happens with U19 - it could change my mind.
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  19. #19

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    Lol. Yeah add a divine grace and a manyshot as well.

    Besides, arties are just nerds that know a lot about technology and traps are a part of it. Wouldn't make sence for them to have evasion.

    /not signed
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  20. #20
    Community Member Rakuda13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrimalConcreteSledge View Post
    Lol. Yeah add a divine grace and a manyshot as well.

    Besides, arties are just nerds that know a lot about technology and traps are a part of it. Wouldn't make sence for them to have evasion.

    /not signed
    I agree with you that Artis are sort of nerdy,with that in mind,no evasion,but should be able to craft traps that include Artis spells.
    Arti is my favorite class,so im not bagging on the Arti class.

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