Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 25
  1. #1
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    2,819

    Default So, explain this dungeon scaling thing to me again...

    Ok, just to preface, I usually don't do solo runs with hirelings on virtually any of my toons.

    So, I'm flagging my pally for Shroud, and I've been running the quests normal, just to get it over with. I PUG-ed Rainbow, the one with the ogres and spiders, ran Coal Chamber solo, did RWTD with my buddies (oooohhh, was that a knee-slapper!). So my last one is Ritual.

    I hack my way all the way to the end, find that wizard, trigger him and then realize...opps! I have to actually keep him alive! Suffice to say, hacking my way to the end fight ended up in failure - the NPC runs to erratically, moves out of range too fast (I have a DoS pally who is in-stance), and takes too much damage. It's late, and I determine that I'll pull in a hire when I tray this on the next day.

    So, instead of 1 cleric, I pull in a cleric, barb, and FvS - I forget which ones - just for chuckles. I also decide to run it on hard.

    It was a friggin' cakewalk all the way to the end. So now I'm wondering the following: does scaling not apply when hirelings are in quest? I mean, it seemed that I was hammering more stuff with higher hit points, but everything went down really, really quick. When I was soloing, it seemed like I was doing nothing but fighting waves and waves of casters in certain areas, but that really didn't happen with the hirelings.

    I always thought that hires changed scaling. In some areas where I know that I'd be fighting three gnolls, I'd run into six of them - so it appeared that there was some sort of scaling going on. But it just went so frickin' fast that I began to wonder if the scaling only applies to real groups with real players in them.

  2. #2
    Community Member MoonlitSilver's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    64

    Default

    Last I heard, dungeons should still scale with hirelings, but hirelings count for less than a player and gold seal hirelings count for less than a regular hireling. So, you wouldn't see as many monsters running with a few hirelings than with a few other players. I assume it was set up because the devs are well aware that a hireling doesn't contribute nearly as much as a live human being with non-fail judgement, gear, and build.
    Furthermore, I believe that the bugs and lag must be fixed.

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    hacking my way to the end fight ended up in failure - the NPC runs to erratically, moves out of range too fast (I have a DoS pally who is in-stance), and takes too much damage.
    That happened to me once, it was super annoying.

    Bonus tip: Even though you don't get flagging credit when the NPC dies, you can still loot the stone from the end chest. This was very fortunate for me during my fail run because I'd already flagged and just wanted another stone.

  4. #4
    Uber Uber Completionist
    2014 DDO Player Council
    Deadlock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Scotland - where the dwarf accents come from
    Posts
    3,505

    Default

    Hires do affect scaling. Normal hires count as 0.5 of a person but gold seal hires count as 0 of a person.

    You can see one symptom of the scaling effects very clearly when you can see monster hit points from your Monster Manual achievements.

    Step in yourself and look at the HP on a creature, then pop hires or ask others to step in.

    I did this to test whether the panther and owlbears were gold seals because you can pop them anywhere, not only at the entrance.

    Bad news is that as you pop each one you can watch the HP increase, and when you dismiss them from the party you can watch the HP drop back down again.

    The whole scaling mechanic is stupid, they should just do away with it. The defence that it's designed to benefit solo or short-manning is a nonsense, just set the mob HP and be done with it - it people want to solo it then let them, if people want to group up to make a quest easier then let them.

  5. #5
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    187

    Default

    This scaling thing make me crazy...
    Why they coded it? no logic I can find out... to protect the solo-shortman players? really?

    Quests SHOULD be difficult to solo, SHOULD be more easy with a full party even if you group with poor guys that last only 2 swings of the 1st mob...at least you gain a little of time.

    Save some time and trash some code... remove all dungeon scaling from the game.

  6. #6
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    322

    Default

    the 3 most annoying quests protecting npc's for me:
    Sharn Syndicate quest: Where u rescue ppl in rooms. 2 seconds after opening the door they're dead and u fail. Will never solo again.
    Gladewatch outpost: Even if i have a high diplomacy and tell her to stay put, she doesn't follow and zergs and dies fast.
    Sorrowdusk Isle quest: Will also never solo this again.

  7. #7
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    266

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by supott View Post
    the 3 most annoying quests protecting npc's for me:
    Sharn Syndicate quest: Where u rescue ppl in rooms. 2 seconds after opening the door they're dead and u fail. Will never solo again.
    Gladewatch outpost: Even if i have a high diplomacy and tell her to stay put, she doesn't follow and zergs and dies fast.
    Sorrowdusk Isle quest: Will also never solo this again.
    Which Sorrowdusk quest are you referring to? I love that chain. Can't think of any protect NPC quest. Pretty sure you are thinking about Threnal.

  8. #8
    Community Member GlassJaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    1,960

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kmankowski View Post
    Which Sorrowdusk quest are you referring to? I love that chain. Can't think of any protect NPC quest. Pretty sure you are thinking about Threnal.
    The Threnal chain has multiple quests that require protecting an NPC. They are all very annoying and culminate with Coyle in East 3 of course.

    No NPCs to protect in Sorrowdusk.

  9. #9
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    1,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Hires do affect scaling. Normal hires count as 0.5 of a person but gold seal hires count as 0 of a person.
    I am willing to be corrected, but I am almost certain that gold seal does not count as 0. I recall a dev saying very explicitly that gold seal contributes 0.25 scaling. It has also been shown by players that the class of the toon affects the level of scaling, and that rule probably applies to hires too.

    One thing I have noticed is that hires, both regular and gold seal, seem to affect the number of spawns equal to a live player. Having the panther out in Weapons Shipment is generally a really bad idea unless you want to make it harder. Another interesting test is something simple like Don't Drink The Water. Taking Albus with you is the same as taking another player with you in terms of mob count (not mob hit points though).

    Scaling is complicated, but it does serve a purpose. Anyone that says they don't understand the rationale behind it is being disingenuous. It is very much in Turbine's interest to serve individual players that want to play at their own pace, and I don't fault Turbine one bit for it.
    Last edited by Katie_Seaglen; 07-05-2013 at 11:41 AM.

  10. #10
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    3,063

    Default

    Having just run Faithful Departed a few days ago, I think that may have the most annoying protection mechanic. An npc that you have to protect, who is also hostile to you, and you can easily kill yourself accidentally. Try doing that one solo with hirelings.

    As far as scaling goes, from what i understand, it only ever makes the quest easier, not harder. Lots of people who complain about it seem to think it does the opposite, which i suppose it does in a relative sense. Without scaling it's unlikely you would have had any chance of soloing Ritual Sacrifice. Especially if your hires scaled as much as actual players.

  11. #11
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    3,063

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Katie_Seaglen View Post
    One thing I have noticed is that hires, both regular and gold seal, seem to affect the number of spawns equal to a live player. Having the panther out in Weapons Shipment is generally a really bad idea unless you want to make it harder. Another interesting test is something simple like Don't Drink The Water. Taking Albus with you is the same as taking another player with you in terms of mob count (not mob hit points though).
    Player class definitely effects scaling, yes. One place where it's easy to see this, without having to see the hit points of mobs is in the mansion challenges in house cannith. Usually with 2 players 2 mobs will spawn out of a painting, but sometimes it is only one, even with a hireling. Depends on the class. Interestingly, monks seem to be one of the classes that causes less scaling.

  12. #12
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    149

    Default

    Solo Elite Xorian Cipher, Gwylan, Sorrowdusk bridge trap, Crimson Heart, Tear, Wiz King, and many more, you can just run through most traps, even on failed saves.
    Take another person and Gwylan or Xorian become much harder to survive, no way to survive that Von4 lever for example.
    Take 2 more people, and you better be looking for a trapper :P But unknown pug trappers are usually awful and unable to get the traps so modus operandi is to go with two instead of pointless waiting or taking risks.

    Also spawns, as been said Detour or Don't drink the water are most obvious examples.
    Monster HP is affected too, from heroic normal to EE.
    Trial by fire EE boss has some 90k hp solo, that goes to 130k with 2 or 3 people for example.

  13. #13
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    8,255

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by supott View Post
    Gladewatch outpost: Even if i have a high diplomacy and tell her to stay put, she doesn't follow and zergs and dies fast.
    Tell her come with me, run to the barricade at the end of the road, kill whatever follows and sit down to wait for the ogre to show up. It's a quest the whole party can pike.

  14. #14
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    290

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    (I have a DoS pally who is in-stance) <snip>
    So, instead of 1 cleric, I pull in a cleric, barb, and FvS - I forget which ones - just for chuckles. I also decide to run it on hard.

    It was a friggin' cakewalk all the way to the end. So now I'm wondering the following: does scaling not apply when hirelings are in quest? I mean, it seemed that I was hammering more stuff with higher hit points, but everything went down really, really quick. When I was soloing, it seemed like I was doing nothing but fighting waves and waves of casters in certain areas, but that really didn't happen with the hirelings.
    As was already mentioned, hirelings have less dungeon scaling than players do, and goldseal hires even less than that.

    It sounds like you are in the rare position where the hirelings are able to out-damage or at the least match the damage of your Paladin.

  15. #15
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    669

    Default

    More like dungeon nerfing. If dungeon strength is 1 for a full party of live humans, then really what is happening is the dungeon is being nerfed down to where your party can succeed at it. As you add party member, you are un-nerfing your dungeon.

  16. #16
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    2,330

    Default

    Hires lead to dungeon scaling as well. I think what you found is that a quest on normal, even with scaling, isn't that hard. You failed the first time because of the inability to heal the NPC, not because it was hard.

  17. #17
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    4,643

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Hires do affect scaling. Normal hires count as 0.5 of a person but gold seal hires count as 0 of a person.

    You can see one symptom of the scaling effects very clearly when you can see monster hit points from your Monster Manual achievements.

    Step in yourself and look at the HP on a creature, then pop hires or ask others to step in.

    I did this to test whether the panther and owlbears were gold seals because you can pop them anywhere, not only at the entrance.

    Bad news is that as you pop each one you can watch the HP increase, and when you dismiss them from the party you can watch the HP drop back down again.

    The whole scaling mechanic is stupid, they should just do away with it. The defence that it's designed to benefit solo or short-manning is a nonsense, just set the mob HP and be done with it - it people want to solo it then let them, if people want to group up to make a quest easier then let them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Njohrd View Post
    This scaling thing make me crazy...
    Why they coded it? no logic I can find out... to protect the solo-shortman players? really?

    Quests SHOULD be difficult to solo, SHOULD be more easy with a full party even if you group with poor guys that last only 2 swings of the 1st mob...at least you gain a little of time.

    Save some time and trash some code... remove all dungeon scaling from the game.
    In PnP, a quest has x amount of experience, and it is divided among all players in party. If the quest is completed with fewer party members, they each get more XP, but they work harder for it.

    In DDO, each party member gets the same XP (w/o personal XP buffs) regardless of number of party members. More total XP means more total work needed in quest.

    Dungeon scaling seems a way to maintain a balance between average work done and average XP earned.
    http://myaccount.turbine.com

    Je ne suis pas
    DDO Alpha Tester

  18. #18
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Staffs, England
    Posts
    9,190

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    As was already mentioned, hirelings have less dungeon scaling than players do, and goldseal hires even less than that.

    It sounds like you are in the rare position where the hirelings are able to out-damage or at the least match the damage of your Paladin.
    The Op mentioned a FavSoul, A Barb and a Cleric.

    Let's assume that the Op put the Cleric on Defensive and Guard the NPC Duty at the end.

    The Barb is neither here nor there in a quest where so many of the mobs are ranged {Archers and Casters} and frankly won't do much dps.

    The FavSoul however....LARAFAY Will annihilate Vale Mobs on Normal or Hard!

    I'd be very surprised if anyone could show an at lvl Melee Character {esp a Sword & Board Pally or Stalwart Fighter} that could out kill count Larafay One on One! {P.S. Proof of Larafay being set to aggressive throughout quest, Shrined up when necessary and NOT messed about with obviously required!}

    Then there's the obvious point that Larafay is also known for some MEAN CC - Cometfall and Greater Command I believe!
    This would make the quest 10 times easier than with just the Barb and Cleric!

  19. #19
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    801

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Having just run Faithful Departed a few days ago, I think that may have the most annoying protection mechanic. An npc that you have to protect, who is also hostile to you, and you can easily kill yourself accidentally. Try doing that one solo with hirelings.
    Tell the hireling to attack the red-name scorrow; that'll keep 'em busy but still doing something useful. Proceed to aggro anything that's attacking the venerated. Profit.

    I'm pretty sure that character level also affects scaling, and the challenge "generators" are acknowledged as being broken in double-dipping with both more spawns for more members along with scaling.

    But anyway, to abuse physics terms, while scaling increases the total amount of work to be done for a party to get the end reward, individually the party members are doing less work on average per character to get the same reward. The problem might be the "on average", meaning that some party members may be doing much less than they would solo and others more.

    If Turbine were to put up a UI on Lama that would let you pick your fixed scaling on starting the instance (a row of "party size" buttons under the difficulty), it would be a lot easier to test the difference and offer feedback. Sure, it is easy to solo Norm, but how much work is it really with no scaling and effectively three human pikers? I dunno.

  20. #20
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    3,063

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frotz View Post
    Tell the hireling to attack the red-name scorrow; that'll keep 'em busy but still doing something useful. Proceed to aggro anything that's attacking the venerated. Profit.
    This sounds like an interesting tactic. Will the hireling heal me while it's doing that? Cuz frankly, once i've agro'd everything else in the room i'm going to be hurting.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload