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  1. #1
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Default Petition: undo XP nerf on Stones

    Seems like you guys are trying to shoot yourselves in the foot! I really don't understand what goes through Turbine decision making sometimes, and I'm not going to try to. So I won't post a lengthy argument trying to persuade anyone one way or the other. I'll just say this:

    Undo the nerf and I'll buy 10 of them; keep it nerfed and I'll buy zero.

  2. #2
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Seems like you guys are trying to shoot yourselves in the foot! I really don't understand what goes through Turbine decision making sometimes, and I'm not going to try to. So I won't post a lengthy argument trying to persuade anyone one way or the other. I'll just say this:

    Undo the nerf and I'll buy 10 of them; keep it nerfed and I'll buy zero.
    You mean the part where you could stack a bunch of xp bonuses (pots, voice, shrine etc) together, and then use the stone and only be a couple hundred K away from 20 instead of being lvl 16 like was intended?

  3. #3
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    its not a nerf. a nerf would be taking away the xp stacking boosts for Ottos. this is a Bigbys Box. totally different. the reason for a different box is in question though so it may not be a nerf either way.

    I don't know, but if I enjoyed paying to not play a bunch of levels I would be happy with the easy button I got. im sure 8 levels saves you xp/min guys a lot of time anyways. I cant believe "losing" 2 levels is worth a nerd rage.

  4. #4
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    its not a nerf. a nerf would be taking away the xp stacking boosts for Ottos. this is a Bigbys Box. totally different. the reason for a different box is in question though so it may not be a nerf either way.

    I don't know, but if I enjoyed paying to not play a bunch of levels I would be happy with the easy button I got. im sure 8 levels saves you xp/min guys a lot of time anyways. I cant believe "losing" 2 levels is worth a nerd rage.
    I've posed my opinion within guild and guess I'll do it here too.

    They could not fix the coding allowing multiple sources of stacking xp to affect the Otto's Box. And there were numerous unintended consequences of this which include but are not limited to:

    1. Lower levels 1-8 being largely unpopulated due to high amounts of soloers running +50% xp pots that would be slowed down by new players.

    2. Mid levels 10-16 being largely unpopulated due to our Otto's friends bypassing them all together.

    3. Heroic Capping levels being populated primarily by channel runs. As players running their xp pots tend to frown on the 10% loss incurred by including newer or unprepared players into their parties.

    4. Numbers 1-3 contributing heavily to a lack of lfm's and grouping opportunities across the board for new and newer players.

    5. A growing culture of not accepting ungeared iconic builds into parties as by and large the player behind them brings a negaive xp contribution and little to nothing else.

    This goes against the intended model of veteran players interacting heavily with newer players. So they recoded and created a new box that lines up better with that model. With the new box, players are less likely to segregate themselves from the general population. And that won't work either...

    Edit: Don't expect to see Otto's Boxes anytime soon - if ever.
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
    And an army of gimp experiments!

  5. #5
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    its not a nerf. a nerf would be taking away the xp stacking boosts for Ottos. this is a Bigbys Box. totally different. the reason for a different box is in question though so it may not be a nerf either way.

    I don't know, but if I enjoyed paying to not play a bunch of levels I would be happy with the easy button I got. im sure 8 levels saves you xp/min guys a lot of time anyways. I cant believe "losing" 2 levels is worth a nerd rage.
    Bigby's is not "totally different" compared to otto's boxes. In fact they're both called "Stones of Experience" how is that totally different?

    You're making a lot of wrong assumptions, primarily being the fact that you think I'm raging. I'm simply stating a fact about my intentions to purchase. I don't have to cowtow to even more money grubbing when the original boxes were such a huge cash grab in the first place. It's just find it disrespectful to apply a ~50% XP nerf to the stone when they're already asking for a relatively large amount of cash.

    Secondly, the boxes actually don't save me any time at all as without them I just won't TR. I already have a triple completionist just waiting to for the enhancement pass to be finalized. I was hoping to make my other completionist a triple, but without stones I'll just stick with single completionist. *shrug* It means I'll play less, and my playtime is already reduced to barely an hour a week.
    Last edited by AtomicMew; 07-04-2013 at 10:11 PM.

  6. #6
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    This goes against the intended model of veteran players interacting heavily with newer players. So they recoded and created a new box that lines up better with that model. With the new box, players are less likely to segregate themselves from the general population. And that won't work either...

    Edit: Don't expect to see Otto's Boxes anytime soon - if ever.
    While that's great and all if that's their reasoning, they need to price accordingly. A 50% XP reduction for 80% of the price is a slap in the face.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    You mean the part where you could stack a bunch of xp bonuses (pots, voice, shrine etc) together, and then use the stone and only be a couple hundred K away from 20 instead of being lvl 16 like was intended?
    I'd like to see where it was written that it wasn't WAI.

    its not a nerf. a nerf would be taking away the xp stacking boosts for Ottos. this is a Bigbys Box. totally different. the reason for a different box is in question though so it may not be a nerf either way.

    I don't know, but if I enjoyed paying to not play a bunch of levels I would be happy with the easy button I got. im sure 8 levels saves you xp/min guys a lot of time anyways. I cant believe "losing" 2 levels is worth a nerd rage.
    I see your point and I don't necessarily disagree with it. However, you can't blame people for being upset when the Devs announce a special deal for the holiday, a dev gets on and says that it will be even better than the Otto's box, and then we get this.

    Also, if you think that this is about losing 2 levels you clearly haven't read the other posts about this.

    I am about as far from an XP/Min player as you can get. I currently have only 2 toons that have been Tr'd.

    Turbine completely blew it with this release. People were excited about getting the stones again. I was probably going to buy one...not several...one...and I still may. However, a lot of people were planning on buying multiple and now they are not. Couple that with the expectations that the box would be better and you wind up getting the people who support this game through real $$$$ very upset. It is about as poor a business decision as I have ever seen.

    The way other people play is of *zero* consequence to me. I will never understand the P2W complainers...there is no *winning* this game. If people want to spend their hard earned money on paying to play the game the way they want to, then god bless them. Through their money, we get a bigger/better game. Bugs? Sure. But I have never payed a game as engrossing as this and I think that overall Turbine does a fantastic job at keeping this game relevant. People cry about the Shard House but I don't see the problem. I simply ignore it and continue to play the way I always have. Again, I have better thing to do than cry about how other people play this game. SMH

  8. #8
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    While that's great and all if that's their reasoning, they need to price accordingly. A 50% XP reduction for 80% of the price is a slap in the face.
    I can certainly appreciate that view.

    Seems to me so far that as the population of players in this game continues to drop, more and more moves to force interaction become the dev flavor of choice. They are trying to force us into the wading pool when we've been swimming out past the buoys. An unfortunate consequence of pandering to the rotating playerbase that rarely comes out of the Harbor to see the rest of the game. I'd even go so far as to say that the intent was for the new player to see many completionists/well built vets and want to spend dollars getting what they have. Because banking on them playing for 4+ years is a poor bet. Why not offer them the things they have and monetize it.

    The trend continues...
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  9. #9
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Bigby's is not "totally different" compared to otto's boxes. In fact they're both called "Stones of Experience" how is that totally different?
    The name is semantics only. One gets you from level 8 to 16 with no other xp stacking and from 8 to 19+ with xp stacking. The other gets you from 7 to 15, and xp stacking does not apply. Sounds totally different to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    You're making a lot of wrong assumptions, primarily being the fact that you think I'm raging. I'm simply stating a fact about my intentions to purchase. I don't have to cowtow to even more money grubbing when the original boxes were such a huge cash grab in the first place. It's just find it disrespectful to apply a ~50% XP nerf to the stone when they're already asking for a relatively large amount of cash.
    They did not apply a nerf. They reduced the cost to sell something totally different which is less beneficial.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Secondly, the boxes actually don't save me any time at all as without them I just won't TR. I already have a triple completionist just waiting to for the enhancement pass to be finalized. I was hoping to make my other completionist a triple, but without stones I'll just stick with single completionist. *shrug* It means I'll play less, and my playtime is already reduced to barely an hour a week.
    This speaks volumes. People will now refuse to play because they cant pay to not play? This p2w stuff has become so ingrained into the game culture at this point that people are threatening to stop paying into the system if an easy button is made slightly less easy. If this is the case, I hereby deem all justification in the past 4 years where people said that p2w was optional, an invalid argument If people are at the point where they deem it mandatory in order for them to have an enjoyable game experience, theres a lot more wrong with this situation than anyone is willing to admit.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #10
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Hmmm.... I see some very popcorn worthy internal discussions going on at Turbine in the near future...

    On one side, you'll have the folks responsible for the Bigbys' Box, and what ever game balance/direction reasoning led them to come up with it...

    On the other, you'll have the bean counters pushing for a return of the (presumably) much more lucrative Ottos' Boxes when financial deadlines start looming...

    I'm thinking we'll see the results of those discussions roughly Decemberish...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  11. #11
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Bigby's is not "totally different" compared to otto's boxes. In fact they're both called "Stones of Experience" how is that totally different?
    The name is semantics only. One gets you from level 8 to 16 with no other xp stacking and from 8 to 19+ with xp stacking. The other gets you from 7 to 15, and xp stacking does not apply. Sounds totally different to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    You're making a lot of wrong assumptions, primarily being the fact that you think I'm raging. I'm simply stating a fact about my intentions to purchase. I don't have to cowtow to even more money grubbing when the original boxes were such a huge cash grab in the first place. It's just find it disrespectful to apply a ~50% XP nerf to the stone when they're already asking for a relatively large amount of cash.
    They did not apply a nerf. They reduced the cost to sell something totally different which is less beneficial.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Secondly, the boxes actually don't save me any time at all as without them I just won't TR. I already have a triple completionist just waiting to for the enhancement pass to be finalized. I was hoping to make my other completionist a triple, but without stones I'll just stick with single completionist. *shrug* It means I'll play less, and my playtime is already reduced to barely an hour a week.
    This speaks volumes. People will now refuse to play because they cant pay to not play? This p2w stuff has become so ingrained into the game culture at this point that people are threatening to stop paying into the system if an easy button is made slightly less easy. If this is the case, I hereby deem all justification in the past 4 years where people said that p2w was optional, an invalid argument. If people are at the point where they deem it mandatory in order for them to have an enjoyable game experience, theres a lot more wrong with this situation than anyone is willing to admit.
    Last edited by Chai; 07-04-2013 at 10:43 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #12
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Dp
    Last edited by Chai; 07-04-2013 at 10:43 PM. Reason: DP
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #13
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    Strongly not supported.

    1. The only reason this "nerf" happened was because they implemented the original stones in a stupid way. It was supposed to take you to a specific level, which they did by providing a certain amount of XP, and it's obvious it was never intended to take you to 19 for the cost of a single XP pot.

    2. These stones are ruining the game. They make heroic grouping more difficult, encourage a "buy your way through the game" mentality and also lead to hordes of people who rush through most of the content only to complain that they are "bored with the endgame". I realize they make too much money on them for them to ever be removed, but at least now they do what they were supposed to do.

  14. #14
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgarallanpoe View Post
    I'd like to see where it was written that it wasn't WAI.
    I'd like to see where it was written that it was WAI.

  15. #15
    Community Member Drus-the-Axe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    These stones are ruining the game
    Hear! Hear!

    Every time Stones of XP are available, LFM levels 9-16 become an empty graveyard. This is a major problem if you care about the health of the game.

    Stones are one of the 2 worst things in DDO(*), and by 'worst' I mean 'things which kill DDO's viability in both the tactical and strategic sense'

    If you like the goose that lays golden eggs, you don't squeeze it so it ***** out gold bricks and bursts under the pressure. Stones do that to DDO.

    I hope to never see Stones ever again, as it means another 6-8 week window of deathly quiet in the 9-16 lvl range.


    (*) Bravery Bonus as currently implemented is the other serious party-killer. As implemented, it makes it well nigh impossible to find a non-elite group, and all too often party's refuse to consider hard or norm and wipe because of foolish greed unwilling to run less than leet, regardless if they can handle it or not.

  16. #16
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    I've posed my opinion within guild and guess I'll do it here too.

    They could not fix the coding allowing multiple sources of stacking xp to affect the Otto's Box. And there were numerous unintended consequences of this which include but are not limited to:

    1. Lower levels 1-8 being largely unpopulated due to high amounts of soloers running +50% xp pots that would be slowed down by new players.

    2. Mid levels 10-16 being largely unpopulated due to our Otto's friends bypassing them all together.

    3. Heroic Capping levels being populated primarily by channel runs. As players running their xp pots tend to frown on the 10% loss incurred by including newer or unprepared players into their parties.

    4. Numbers 1-3 contributing heavily to a lack of lfm's and grouping opportunities across the board for new and newer players.

    5. A growing culture of not accepting ungeared iconic builds into parties as by and large the player behind them brings a negaive xp contribution and little to nothing else.

    This goes against the intended model of veteran players interacting heavily with newer players. So they recoded and created a new box that lines up better with that model. With the new box, players are less likely to segregate themselves from the general population. And that won't work either...

    Edit: Don't expect to see Otto's Boxes anytime soon - if ever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    It is possible that both could be made available from time to time.
    ^^

  17. #17
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    The stones are not required to play. If you don't like what they offer for the price, don't buy them. If they don't sell well, it's possible that Turbine might rethink things.

    Otherwise, quitcher*****in.

    Jeezus, this forum has really become supremely whiny.

    I won't even go into how ridiculous it is to pay money to not play a game you pay money to play. Beyond hamster wheel silly.

  18. #18
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    The stones are not required to play. If you don't like what they offer for the price, don't buy them. If they don't sell well, it's possible that Turbine might rethink things.

    Otherwise, quitcher*****in.

    Jeezus, this forum has really become supremely whiny.

    I won't even go into how ridiculous it is to pay money to not play a game you pay money to play. Beyond hamster wheel silly.
    I see a lot of posts like above, making a completely wrong assumption that I addressed in my first response. Explain to me how asking for a nerf reversal is "whining." I did not make any garish accusations, flames, name calling or demands. In fact, the very act of "petition" is the farthest you can get from whining while still bringing an issue to light.

    I am not complaining about anything, as either way this change affects me very little. As I said, I'm playing maybe one hour at most a week as it is. I state simply what the result of turbine's decisions will have on my purchasing habits. I don't think I need to justify that to you or anybody, wouldn't you agree?

  19. #19
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    I see a lot of posts like above, making a completely wrong assumption that I addressed in my first response. Explain to me how asking for a nerf reversal is "whining." I did not make any garish accusations, flames, name calling or demands. In fact, the very act of "petition" is the farthest you can get from whining while still bringing an issue to light.

    I am not complaining about anything, as either way this change affects me very little. As I said, I'm playing maybe one hour at most a week as it is. I state simply what the result of turbine's decisions will have on my purchasing habits. I don't think I need to justify that to you or anybody, wouldn't you agree?
    ok. if you are not complaining you are saying you don't understand and agree with Turbines decision to develop a brand new experience stone, give it a different name, skipping a level sooner but getting to the level the stone was made to do for your character without increasing those levels past 15 with several different xp boosts. you will not by the Bigbys Box because you cant gain an extra 2ish levels.

    ive seen and heard quite a few people say they wont buy it or buy many because the xp boosts wont stack with it. I don't know, but paying to skip 8 levels still seems like a time saver to me. not getting the bonus 2 levels is really the deal breaker? my heart bleeds for you guys.

  20. #20
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    ok. if you are not complaining you are saying you don't understand and agree with Turbines decision to develop a brand new experience stone, give it a different name, skipping a level sooner but getting to the level the stone was made to do for your character without increasing those levels past 15 with several different xp boosts. you will not by the Bigbys Box because you cant gain an extra 2ish levels.

    ive seen and heard quite a few people say they wont buy it or buy many because the xp boosts wont stack with it. I don't know, but paying to skip 8 levels still seems like a time saver to me. not getting the bonus 2 levels is really the deal breaker? my heart bleeds for you guys.
    As I said, I don't need to justify anything. I'm not asking for your bleeding heart. The only thing that will sway turbine is money, and if purchases aren't as high as otto boxes, they will know why.

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