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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Yes, yes I did think it was working as intended as the only XP in game that isn't getting augmented is xp granted from the Monster Manual currently.

    Also add into it the original stones granted the bonus XP, and every release of Otto's box stones granted additional XP and no representative from Turbine ever made the comment of "oops.. they shouldn't be doing that. Enjoy it while it lasts." as they have in the past. (Such as bags that did not BTC out of the store.)

    So what of the bonuses themselves?


    Item based ala voice of the master?
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Voice_of_the_Master
    Ok, if you want to say this one shouldn't, I won't argue. It does call out "quest xp" directly.

    Ship shrine XP? I haven't a clue on this one. I'd have to be able to be in game to look it up as Turbine nor Wiki has a picture up for verbatim description.

    VIP 10% bonus? Again, not certain. Turbine does not list it in their page at all, and the wiki just has a comment about it.

    DDO store Elixers. No, this one per description should be effecting it. "This amazing concoction heightens he senses, sharpens the mind, and greatly enhances learning ablity. Consuming this elixir grants your character a +50% bonus on all earned experience for the next 3 hours that you are logged in and in a quest. (The effect timer pauses while you are in public areas.)"
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Experience_E...Back_to_top.29
    For that matter it should also be effecting Monster Manual but does not.

    Tomes of Experience. This one calls out the term of "dungeon", so I am willing to equate that to "quest" and agreeable that it would not apply, much like item based xp bonus.
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Tome_of_Learning


    So of all bonus we are granted, IMO Elixir and VIP should be counting on them at a minimum.
    Except the stones aren't described as granting xp, but as granting levels. Also, if you want to split hairs, the elixirs say earned xp while xp from the stones could easily be categorized as granted xp, so exempt.

  2. #42
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    The one that sprang to mind for me was this.

    Guy moves to a new town and calls to have basic cable installed. They come and set up the cable box, and that evening the guy is flipping channels and discovers that he has HBO. "Cool!" he thinks, and of course doesn't call to tell the cable company about it. He keeps using his free HBO month after month, and then one day turns on the TV and the HBO is gone.

    What does he do then -- call up the cable company and scream at them that he's going to ragequit his cable service because he's no longer getting something extra for free?

    ETA: These stones are not "earned experience" and the elixirs should not apply. They have always been advertised as taking you to a specific level, not a level 3 above that.
    To me the more accurate analogy is the person buys cable simply because they want HBO (xp stone) because all their favorite TV shows are on that channel. They don't even want basic cable but they have to buy into that in order to add HBO as well (accounting for the other stuff in ottos box). One day the company simply switches it up and the user finds out they stopped carrying HBO, but their plan is now cheaper.

    What does he do then -- call up the cable company and cancel the entire basic cable because he only had that in order to get HBO. No I don't want showtime (xp stone with less benefits) I want to cancel basic cable altogether.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #43
    Community Member gaffneyks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    To me the more accurate analogy is the person buys cable simply because they want HBO (xp stone) because all their favorite TV shows are on that channel. They don't even want basic cable but they have to buy into that in order to add HBO as well (accounting for the other stuff in ottos box). One day the company simply switches it up and the user finds out they stopped carrying HBO, but their plan is now cheaper.

    What does he do then -- call up the cable company and cancel the entire basic cable because he only had that in order to get HBO. No I don't want showtime (xp stone with less benefits) I want to cancel basic cable altogether.
    Not sure why all the comparisons are trying to do as this is really pretty simple.

    People decide if something is a value or not and spend money accordingly.

    Ott's box with stacking Bonuses = I found a value for the money, hence I spent money and turbine makes profit on from me.
    Bixby box without any stacking Bonuses = I feel not worth the money, so Turbine makes no money on from me.

    whether it was ever intended to stack is really irrelevant to my spending of said dollars.
    they DID stack through multiple sales of the product, so I calculated that in when I decided if the price was something I would pay. If they change it now and do not change the price. I would be getting less value than I did in the past for the same product and most likely would not purchase it at that price as I would feel it was too high.

    Of course, those of us who post about this assume Turbine wants input on why we are not spending money, they could care less

  4. #44
    Founder & Hero cdbd3rd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steiner View Post
    Permabanned, your nose smells funny....

    One might wonder why your nose is so close to Perma's.


    On-Topic: My understanding from the early release of Bigby's was that it didn't specify that XP boosts would not be working with these Stones. Given that the XP boosts on Otto stones have been a common topic in MANY forum threads, it's well known to the Powers that the playerbase expected such. (Regardless of WAI or not)

    As such, it would have been proper to specify in the initial marketing launch that no XP boosts would be applying to these new stones. Those who bought the stones before the official word came out about this have a right to be upset - and should have the option for the evil "refund".


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  5. #45
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    There is no evidence in this thread that shows otherwise. If people did not ever even know about stacking XP affecting the amount of XP awarded, and it never happened that way in the first place, there never would have been a point of reference to compare that "value" to in the first place. .
    You half read everything don't you?

    As has been said repeatedly in posts you can't be bothered to fully read, yes some people would have bought it no matter what. However, a MUCH LARGER GROUP who would never have bought it before bought it when they found out about XP stacking (a fact we found out on the free ones before the paid ones even existed)

  6. #46
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Yes, yes I did think it was working as intended.
    Really? Let's fact check your supporting evidence:
    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Item based ala voice of the master?
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Voice_of_the_Master
    Ok, if you want to say this one shouldn't, I won't argue. It does call out "quest xp" directly.
    So that's one we agree shouldn't apply.
    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Ship shrine XP? ... VIP 10% bonus?
    Granted, Turbine vaguery leaves open the possibility these can apply appropriately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    DDO store Elixers. No, this one per description should be effecting it. "This amazing concoction heightens he senses, sharpens the mind, and greatly enhances learning ablity. Consuming this elixir grants your character a +50% bonus on all earned experience for the next 3 hours that you are logged in and in a quest. (The effect timer pauses while you are in public areas.)"
    Sorry, nice attempt to cherry pick the "all xp earned" part, but you seemed to miss the part (that you quoted even!) about needing to be in a quest, and the effect being paused in a public area.
    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Tomes of Experience. This one calls out the term of "dungeon", so I am willing to equate that to "quest" and agreeable that it would not apply, much like item based xp bonus.
    and here again we agree this should not apply.

    Even the DDO "bonus days" (iirc) always state heroic/epic quest xp, and thus should also not apply, as standing at a trainer & selecting the level up option is in no way a quest.

    So at best, the ship shrine & VIP are all that maybe should apply, though the public area "quests" in meridia never receiving that bonus even calls that into question.

    Basically, everyone postulating that receiving all bonuses to the xp granted by the leveling stones is/was somehow wai are deluding themselves. As for using the "Turbine sold them knowing about these effects" argument to support their position, look back at the Shears. They knew from Lama Land reports about the bugsploitable possibilities, sent them live anyway, got more reports, put them on sale, then pulled them from the store; so there's precident for them selling things they knew not to be wai, just to make a few (or rather several) quick buck$.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  7. #47
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdbd3rd View Post
    As such, it would have been proper to specify in the initial marketing launch that no XP boosts would be applying to these new stones. Those who bought the stones before the official word came out about this have a right to be upset - and should have the option for the evil "refund".
    if Turbine did that, than it would be they acknowledge what they already knew publicly.

  8. #48
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Basically, everyone postulating that receiving all bonuses to the xp granted by the leveling stones is/was somehow wai are deluding themselves. As for using the "Turbine sold them knowing about these effects" argument to support their position, look back at the Shears. They knew from Lama Land reports about the bugsploitable possibilities, sent them live anyway, got more reports, put them on sale, then pulled them from the store; so there's precident for them selling things they knew not to be wai, just to make a few (or rather several) quick buck$.
    make money often and early before fixing the problem.

  9. #49
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    as near as I can tell, this is the first time xp boosts stacking with experience stones was first mentioned on the forums "fight club"

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...perience+stone

    here is the first that I could find mentioning that xp boosts do stack with experience stones "no fight club"

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...perience+stone

    notice that this was happening back in the days of MOTU pre purchase and Turbine was full aware. I looked through the official Lamania discussion on experience stones and a lot of people assumed the stones was just for testing purposes to get people leveled faster and try out the new quests. I guess we should have realized we were actually testing the stones since xp is handed out easily. you just have to ask and poof! I read what Tolero wrote about the experience stones and made no mention of xp boosts stacking with it. I have not found one single comment from Tolero or anybody else that xp boosts stacking is WAI or not. we may never know.

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...perience+stone

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The sheer amount of negative feedback Im seeing on the boards and in game in relation to this new bigbys box, shows that p2w is now ingrained so much into the game culture at this point that some people feel its mandatory for it to be in place in order for them to enjoy playing.
    It would be easier to take you seriously if you weren't still banging this tired, old biased drum of yours. First, you think something. That's nice. Others think differently. Your thinking doesn't trump theirs. More importantly, you're trying to use to bolster your point the posts on these forums. Those posts represent a loud minority of forum users, who then represent only a loud minority of players, so as a sample base, it's poor at best.

  11. #51
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    Default The new boxes are fine

    The old boxes gave more xp than intended (I assume). This doesn't mean the new ones are bad, it means they are no longer giving more xp than intended.

    It's still a nice, although expensive option for people to consider. The loss of the xp bonus doesn't impact my buying decision at all. It still seems like a decent value for the cost the only things I need to consider is my own budget and priorities.

    Adding up the value of the box contents confirms the stones are around 500 pts plus you have to buy the other stuff which is still usable.

    As for "pay to win" arguments, those don't really seem reasonable to me. How is Turbine supposed to make money? By selling things that are of no use at all? If that is your belief, never start your own business.
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  12. #52
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    As for "pay to win" arguments, those don't really seem reasonable to me. How is Turbine supposed to make money? By selling things that are of no use at all? If that is your belief, never start your own business.
    thanks for the business advice.

  13. #53
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post

    As for "pay to win" arguments, those don't really seem reasonable to me. How is Turbine supposed to make money? By selling things that are of no use at all? If that is your belief, never start your own business.
    Something can sell well and still be horrible for the health of the game. The two are mutually exclusive. Turbine could sell a new "box" with epic SoS, 15 stones of xp (1-28), 75 billion plat and free permanent access to the dojo on live servers. They would probably sell a lot of these boxes, but the game would be an unbalanced mess afterward.

    You cannot justify every item sold by saying that a company needs to make money. Yes they do, but they also have to attempt to maintain some sort of balance and stability in the game or players won't see a point to playing instead of paying. This is where pay to win becomes a bad thing. When instead of playing your character, you just buy all the advancement you need, then wonder what to do with the game once you have all you want. Pay to win becomes a route to boredom with the game.
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  14. #54
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    As for "pay to win" arguments, those don't really seem reasonable to me. How is Turbine supposed to make money? By selling things that are of no use at all? If that is your belief, never start your own business.
    If Turbine made the human, Elf, and Halfling all P2P (even for VIP), would you still throw your money blindly at them and state that they need the money?

    I honestly think that more people would be willing to give to Turbine if there was any trust. Even if you do not want to label this gimmick as bait/switch, it is still shady. This type of business is not one that last long and it is not one that I would ever want to start.
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    Something can sell well and still be horrible for the health of the game. The two are mutually exclusive. Turbine could sell a new "box" with epic SoS, 15 stones of xp (1-28), 75 billion plat and free permanent access to the dojo on live servers. They would probably sell a lot of these boxes, but the game would be an unbalanced mess afterward.

    You cannot justify every item sold by saying that a company needs to make money. Yes they do, but they also have to attempt to maintain some sort of balance and stability in the game or players won't see a point to playing instead of paying. This is where pay to win becomes a bad thing. When instead of playing your character, you just buy all the advancement you need, then wonder what to do with the game once you have all you want. Pay to win becomes a route to boredom with the game.
    You do have a point there. There are going to people that leave because they feel they aren't on equal footing with people that throw money at the game. But I believe that attrition is far smaller than the # of paying customers that leave the game because of bad experiences with people at end game (who happen to be mostly be power gamers).

    I am not an expert in the gaming business so I don't where the right balance is. I do think people throw a lot more money into WOW than this game just based on discussions with people. Bug again, I never played WoW so I have no clue about the game. But I do remember people throwing a few hundred $ buying boxes of WoW cards for a chance to get an in-game item.
    CC Casting Druid: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...C-Summer-Build
    Shiradi Wiz Plan for 1st Lifers: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...r-First-Lifers
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    Several characters on Sarlona all starting with "Rand" in the Guild "Guardians of House Cannith". My main four characters are Randowl (18 rogue 2 artificer mechanic - hope to go back to DC casting some day), Randslar (Bard 14 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 2 Swashbuckler), Randek (Druid CC Caster 17/Fvs 3) and Randomall (Rogue 20 assassin).

  16. #56
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    The problem lies more in the delivery.

    People bought the Otto's and were happy.
    Along comes Bigby's, which people naturally assumed worked the same was as the Otto's.
    People were unpleasantly surprised, and reacted negatively.

    I will say this, I am quite impressed the Dev's posted on it quickly and laid it all out clearly, probably realizing it would be quite unpopular but doing the right thing anyhow.


    The new box is significantly less powerful than the old one, and people are free to choose to purchase it or not. Good thing it's totally optional!
    <-Curelite Bottling Company->

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  17. #57
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    If you look, you will see that Turbine is not at fault for this. So please read before you criticize.

    There was nothing in release notes that they were “fixing” the way that the xp was given out. I am also sure that there was “no official word” that challenges were going to get their ingredients and xp nerfed, until the sold the quota and then they would address the mob. I am also sure that they did not think the no ML rings were OP until everyone went out and paid for the pack. When they met the quota, then they decided to inform the mob that it was OP. Now on Lama, those same rings have a ML? Why is that? Did they just now see that they were OP? You won’t lose ED xp through tr? Remember hearing that a year ago? After everyone buys it “meet the quota”, we here word that they are changing it.

    I could go on for a few hours, but I am going to mow the grass. Once again, I do not blame Turbine. They can make money no matter how they have to get it for all I care. I am just pointing out that people should not complain when they do not get what they think they are. The writing has been on the wall for a while.
    Let me say one thing about challenges and all that blah blah bs. It was NEVER advertised to be a permanent xp or ingredients now was it? You were sold a pack you can go in at any point as many times as you want getting xp and ingredients. Not one time did i see you were suppose to get this EVERY time. So no bait and switch. ugh please know *** you're talking about. bait/switch is something like they charge 14.95 for a product advertised. Then switch it for say 19.95 or make you buy a more expensive product. That's bait and switch. they would have to charge 14.95 since that is what is advertised.

    Rings yet again nothing bait/switch there. ugh not sure why you brought that up. this is like the chest in Deal with the demon. yet again NO bait/switch. there was no offer made for any of these. None of these chests or items were advertised ever. people ran these because either it was easy to get the gear or b get the no min level rings. something turbine didn't see coming. So yes they changed it but not ONE time was it advertised that this was an intended effect when they sell the packs.

    As for the xp fixing lol that has nothing do with bait/switch. So please try again and show me something they actually promised but didn't deliver the actual product listed. im referring to bait/switch.

  18. #58
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    The old boxes gave more xp than intended (I assume). This doesn't mean the new ones are bad, it means they are no longer giving more xp than intended.

    It's still a nice, although expensive option for people to consider. The loss of the xp bonus doesn't impact my buying decision at all. It still seems like a decent value for the cost the only things I need to consider is my own budget and priorities.

    Adding up the value of the box contents confirms the stones are around 500 pts plus you have to buy the other stuff which is still usable.

    As for "pay to win" arguments, those don't really seem reasonable to me. How is Turbine supposed to make money? By selling things that are of no use at all? If that is your belief, never start your own business.
    ty for once another person who has a sense of thinking. Not feeling their entitled to something that was not advertised. I hate these moaners who think omg omg this is sooooo bad. that something that had a hidden perk is removed. omg oh noes. whoa is me. dang turbine for removing something not advertised. ugh. i'll say this again. i bought the otto's box/bigby box because i enjoyed what was inside. There no hidden effects i saw the cost. i saw what was inside. So i knew what i bought. When i saw i hit 19 from the otto's box. i was like wow that was sweet. unintended effect. i cant complain.

    i got my level 16 as advertised with bonus levels. So not sure how anyone can think they are entitled to more. you need to get off your high horse people. if ya don't like the boxes don't buy them. i will because i still want to skip levels either because i hate the class im playing, i want to get a jump into the build im playing, or i just want to get back to 20.

    i will say this one more time for anyone who keeps saying bigby box is bait/switch. KNOW THE WORDS you're using before saying a freaking thing. You get exactly what the box says. So there is none of that going on.

  19. #59
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkonas View Post
    Let me say one thing about challenges and all that blah blah bs. It was NEVER advertised to be a permanent xp or ingredients now was it? You were sold a pack you can go in at any point as many times as you want getting xp and ingredients. Not one time did i see you were suppose to get this EVERY time. So no bait and switch. ugh please know *** you're talking about. bait/switch is something like they charge 14.95 for a product advertised. Then switch it for say 19.95 or make you buy a more expensive product. That's bait and switch. they would have to charge 14.95 since that is what is advertised.

    Rings yet again nothing bait/switch there. ugh not sure why you brought that up. this is like the chest in Deal with the demon. yet again NO bait/switch. there was no offer made for any of these. None of these chests or items were advertised ever. people ran these because either it was easy to get the gear or b get the no min level rings. something turbine didn't see coming. So yes they changed it but not ONE time was it advertised that this was an intended effect when they sell the packs.

    As for the xp fixing lol that has nothing do with bait/switch. So please try again and show me something they actually promised but didn't deliver the actual product listed. im referring to bait/switch.
    Will go back to the car reference.

    If you go lease a car right now and understand that you are getting certain benefits with it (free oil change, tire rotation, or any maint) would you be mad if the dealership took them away?

    Yes, turbine is the dealership that can do as they please, but I know one thing, I would never lease from the again. They can rig xp, loot, ingredients, or anything they like, but when they sell something on the pretense that it is “this” and then they switch it to “that”, it is indeed bait/switch.
    Flabby-Flaber-Flabo--Heifer-Oinks

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  20. #60
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkonas View Post
    i will say this one more time for anyone who keeps saying bigby box is bait/switch. KNOW THE WORDS you're using before saying a freaking thing. You get exactly what the box says. So there is none of that going on.
    I am not saying that this is bait/switch. This goes along with shady practices. Why not tell people that it was changed? Did they think it would hurt sales if they told the truth?
    This just falls into line with other things. They put shears on sell in the store, and the very next week they were removed from the store? Did they just figure out what was going on, or were they trying to fleece the community before they removed them? Not bait and switch, but very shady.
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