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  1. #1
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Default Some questions for the would be "stoners"

    I never thought the 8-16 stones granting bonus xp was wai, did you?

    Im fairly certain that I remember people posting their delighted surprise at the extra benefits, indicating that they initially purchased the stone for it's 8-16 benefits, not knowing there would be more.

    If the Ottos' stones had only ever functioned according to their description, would that have really curbed purchases?

    I understand it's a total let down that these new stones only do what they *say* and nothing more, but is it really that much of a shock? Are you really expecting that the next time Ottos' shows up, it will provide all the extra bonus, and not be recoded to function according to it's description?

    *Of the few reports I've seen regarding them only going to 14, it's always "I heard from..." Couple that with people using them successfully (to 15) to test xp bonus effects (some did this before or to confirm Cordovans' statement) and it would appear that if there is a "14" issue it's situational at worst. (not that being situational would excuse it!)

    All this "OMG if I can't get a bonus, I won't waste my money" seems a bit off to me. Sure, I've done enough TRing to understand the issues surrounding xp at those top heroic levels, but even Nepalm doesn't clear 7-15 or 8-16 in the five minutes it takes to stone those levels (I'm sure he takes at least double that ) The stones are still a short cut no matter how you slice it. No, the xp/TP ratio isn't as efficient, but it's still a significant RL time saver...

    I guess I look at the demise of the (almost certainly unintended) bonus xp as more of an "It was fun while it lasted" kind of thing, ala the "instant finish" bug; and am confused about why I seem to be the only one...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  2. #2
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    I never thought the 8-16 stones granting bonus xp was wai, did you?

    Im fairly certain that I remember people posting their delighted surprise at the extra benefits, indicating that they initially purchased the stone for it's 8-16 benefits, not knowing there would be more.

    If the Ottos' stones had only ever functioned according to their description, would that have really curbed purchases?

    I understand it's a total let down that these new stones only do what they *say* and nothing more, but is it really that much of a shock? Are you really expecting that the next time Ottos' shows up, it will provide all the extra bonus, and not be recoded to function according to it's description?

    *Of the few reports I've seen regarding them only going to 14, it's always "I heard from..." Couple that with people using them successfully (to 15) to test xp bonus effects (some did this before or to confirm Cordovans' statement) and it would appear that if there is a "14" issue it's situational at worst. (not that being situational would excuse it!)

    All this "OMG if I can't get a bonus, I won't waste my money" seems a bit off to me. Sure, I've done enough TRing to understand the issues surrounding xp at those top heroic levels, but even Nepalm doesn't clear 7-15 or 8-16 in the five minutes it takes to stone those levels (I'm sure he takes at least double that ) The stones are still a short cut no matter how you slice it. No, the xp/TP ratio isn't as efficient, but it's still a significant RL time saver...

    I guess I look at the demise of the (almost certainly unintended) bonus xp as more of an "It was fun while it lasted" kind of thing, ala the "instant finish" bug; and am confused about why I seem to be the only one...
    I think it's a matter of price, 8-16 with the bug/benefit/whatever was accepted by people as a decent ratio of xp/tp, the new stone with the whatever removed and the level bracket adjusted is a 20% price decrease with a 45% xp decrease. I think if the price was a 45% decrease no one would be saying anything about it other than may it sucks that it's smaller but oh well.

  3. #3
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    I really don't think the Bigby's stones are bad. It's still skipping 8 levels and saving you time, especially if you're skipping levels you don't find enjoyable. I never bought any Otto's boxes and likely won't buy any Bigby's boxes.

    I do think that players are looking at the 4k price tag and are left wanting more because of what they're used to with the Otto's boxes. It's been mentioned elsewhere, but players who are looking to skip levels are looking to skip the highest levels and Otto's (whether WAI or not) allows you to skip nearly to the end of the heroic grind. This has massive appeal to players that are looking for a fast TR or just to get back to endgame quickly. Bigby's box doesn't do either of these two things particularly well. It allows you to skip lower content, which while potentially annoying to many players, has xp in abundance and is relatively easier than level 16+ content, especially while elite streaking.

    If Bigby's stones had been 10-18 or even 11-19, they would have still been 8 levels worth of xp, but it would have been the "right" 8 levels for many people making comparisons to the Otto's box. I really think people want to skip the levels closest to 20 as much as they can. That's my theory at least. I'd expect a very unpopular "fix" to Otto's boxes soon.
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  4. #4
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I think it's a matter of price, 8-16 with the bug/benefit/whatever was accepted by people as a decent ratio of xp/tp, the new stone with the whatever removed and the level bracket adjusted is a 20% price decrease with a 45% xp decrease. I think if the price was a 45% decrease no one would be saying anything about it other than may it sucks that it's smaller but oh well.
    Wasn't the original stone considered a good enough value to be worth purchasing without foreknowledge of the bonus?

    If there had been no bonus, would there really have been significantly less boxes purchased?

    Edit: remember, the bonus was like penicillin, an accidental discovery...
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 07-04-2013 at 07:12 PM.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  5. #5
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Wasn't the original stone considered a good enough value to be worth purchasing without foreknowledge of the bonus?

    If there had been no bonus, would there really have been significantly less boxes purchased?
    It's all relative.

    In a world where there never was any bonus xp, Turbine sells X boxes. Players are happy and have no entitlement because they never knew the stones to work any other way.

    In a parallel world which we live in, the stones were boosted with xp bonuses. Turbine sold X + Y boxes. Y being all the players that bought boxes strictly because the bonus was appealing enough to them to make the price point reasonable when it otherwise would not have been.

    So because of the bonus, more boxes are sold. They still sold the boxes to the people that would have bought them anyway, but also sold them to another demographic. Those that like tons of xp and going straight to 19.

    I believe they sold more boxes because of the xp boost. How many more, is something only Turbine can guess at, but I have to believe the number would have been less without the boost. Perhaps the Bigby's boxes are just such a test by Turbine.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  6. #6
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Wasn't the original stone considered a good enough value to be worth purchasing without foreknowledge of the bonus?
    Except it was known. Remember those 8-16 stones you got from pre-ordering MotU? They also had the bonus XP.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Wasn't the original stone considered a good enough value to be worth purchasing without foreknowledge of the bonus?

    If there had been no bonus, would there really have been significantly less boxes purchased?

    Edit: remember, the bonus was like penicillin, an accidental discovery...
    At least one box was bought because of it. Once I heard about the bonus I bought one and I would not have without it a few months ago. I don't think I'm extremely odd because of this, I think my case might be fairly common.

  8. #8
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    I guess my issue in the matter is that while I can intellectually understand the math problem irritating people, I just can't personally identify with it. It always seemed like a "too good to be true" kind of thing, so it came as no surprise, to me anyways, when the ride was over.

    Thanx all for the input
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    If the Ottos' stones had only ever functioned according to their description, would that have really curbed purchases?
    Hell yes! It's 5000 TP. I always knew about the effect of xp elixir, xp ship buff, etc(It's been on the DDOWIKI's entry like forever!) and still I hesitated a lot before purchasing 1 single box. 5000 TP is a lot of dollars worth just to save some time!

    It's especially dissapointing now, for all the people who bought the Bigby's handy box, not knowing that the stones of XP within worked differently(granting basically -HALF- of the XP gained from Otto's stones with elixir/buffs). Not only that, but the content of the box is inferior to the Otto's box too, no jewels/no slayer boosts, etc...

    It's a big dissapointment. The people I know that bought them, have buyer's remorses and those who thought of buying them, no longer will. It is just, not a good deal at 4000 TP.

  10. #10
    Community Member redraider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Wasn't the original stone considered a good enough value to be worth purchasing without foreknowledge of the bonus?

    If there had been no bonus, would there really have been significantly less boxes purchased?

    Edit: remember, the bonus was like penicillin, an accidental discovery...
    This answer is a definitive no. The original was NOT a good enough value. Yes, significantly less would have been purchased.

    This is a simple marketing equation for Turbine and they will know the economics of this offering soon. It's kind of like the planned expansion this year that really blows compared to last years. Those economics won't look so good either.

    The original stone WAS NOT worth the price charged. The ugly grind is 16+ plus not 1-15 the way TR2 XP scales now. I believe sales skyrocketed when word got out that the stone allowed you to go from 8 to 19 (based only on people I now in game). I am not aware of anyone who bought one outside the original you received with the expansion pack understanding you could only go 8-16.

    Turbine picked up $100 from me and I am betting a bunch from others once you could jump to 19. It made it an acceptable deal.

    Roughly $30 to go from 7-15? A definitive "no thank you" Turbine.

    I vote with my wallet and on this I vote no.

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  11. #11
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Wasn't the original stone considered a good enough value to be worth purchasing without foreknowledge of the bonus?

    If there had been no bonus, would there really have been significantly less boxes purchased?
    Overall, I think there would have been significantly less purchases. You had a pretty solid group of sales initially I believe from the multi tr enthusiasts, hardcore gamers, etc... However it seemed to me that the sales, and the value of the box spiked upwards once word got out that various sources of xp increase were increasing the amount awarded by the box significantly.

    I personally never considered the box to be worth 50 dollars roughly. Many, many others do however. And you notice that even with the introduction of Bigby's there has been no effort made to separately sell the xp stone for a reduced and more affordable tp cost.

    But yes, even people who were on the fence regarding the value of skipping levels 8-16 crossed over with the quickness when it became common knowledge that stacking worked with it. Those folks would have likely never committed to purchasing one without that unintended aspect of the box. Amazing what a coding error will do...



    Edit: remember, the bonus was like penicillin, an accidental discovery...
    Yep.

    What's interesting to me is the fact that an entirely new box was created to address this problem. I'm guessing they could not correct their initial error. I made the attempt to warn my guildies regarding the high likelyhood that stacking xp wouldn't jive with the new boxes. It's an interesting source of discussion now in our outfit. The boxes still have a value for sure. However I think the bean counters are going to be disappointed this time around when comparing sales for this product versus the previous incarnations.
    Last edited by taurean430; 07-04-2013 at 10:31 PM. Reason: bah, typos
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  12. #12
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    Not to mention that every Ottos Box that was purchased also required the acquiring of a 50% pot, usually from the store.

    Sure if they had never released Ottos boxes as they were we wouldn't see people complaining now, imagine if we seen stones that boosted you from lvl 13 - 20 instead of 7 - 15. I wonder which stones we would see selling like hot cakes and which would be still sitting on the shelf well past their use by date?

    I much prefer the lower Heroic Levels than the Higher and its all to do with the XP Grind, it has nothing to do with the difficulty as a properly geared TR can handle the majority of Heroic elite content from 1 - 20. (just skip a few quests if they are too tough)

    At the end of the day if they wanted vets partying with newbies then they should have made the stones at the higher end of the scale as I imagine around the level 7 - 10 area is where alot of new players start to get bored of the game especially if they cant find parties, encourage vets to party with Newbies by removing the 10% death penalty for "adventurer" toons and maybe even give an xp boost for those that party with new players, or reintroduce the build your guild event.
    Also is Wayfinder still the default server for new players??????? God I hope not lol......
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  13. #13
    Community Member gaffneyks's Avatar
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    If you think it is such a great deal then go buy some.

    When Otto's first came out, A number of us looked at the price of the stones and felt it was to much, then we heard that the bonus would stack, and realized it was a better deal and spent money on them.

    Now they have a new stone that works differently and people are letting Turbine know WHY they will not be spending money on them.

    But if you think that Bigby's box is such a great deal, spend away. Maybe you can make up for the lost revenue of those of us who think it is not worth the price.

  14. #14
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    I think a relatively similar amount of boxes would have sold if it never allowed for XP boost stacking. Never having had the boost stacking is better marketing than having it and then taking it away. No one would have known it worked any other way, and sales would not have been affected. Where Turbine would have lost out is on the additional 50% pots that get purchased along with the boxes, had the stones not allowed XP boost stacking.

    The sheer amount of negative feedback Im seeing on the boards and in game in relation to this new bigbys box, shows that p2w is now ingrained so much into the game culture at this point that some people feel its mandatory for it to be in place in order for them to enjoy playing. Turn the way back machine to 2009, when people were arguing that since its not necessary, its not p2w. Where are many of those people now I wonder? Gone, because at some point they realized the trap for what it was, at exactly the same point they realized that they MUST succumb to the cash grab that allows them to circumvent/mitigate irritating grind mechanics in order to enjoy playing, and then too realized this has happened repeatedly since its inception.

    All Turbine had to do to show us how much this entitlement to paid grind circumvention is ingrained into the games culture, is scale the benefits of one item back somewhat, then sit back, and observe.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #15
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaffneyks View Post
    If you think it is such a great deal then go buy some.
    Lol When did I say it was a good deal? I just said I'm not surprised they changed the mechanics so that the stone only does what says and no more. I guess since I never considered the first boxes worth purchasing, or even a good idea for that matter, I have the luxury of taking a more relaxed posture on the new ones...

    I actually kind of agree with Chi on this whole mess... And with that realization I think I need a shower...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    I never thought the 8-16 stones granting bonus xp was wai, did you?

    Im fairly certain that I remember people posting their delighted surprise at the extra benefits, indicating that they initially purchased the stone for it's 8-16 benefits, not knowing there would be more.

    If the Ottos' stones had only ever functioned according to their description, would that have really curbed purchases?

    I understand it's a total let down that these new stones only do what they *say* and nothing more, but is it really that much of a shock? Are you really expecting that the next time Ottos' shows up, it will provide all the extra bonus, and not be recoded to function according to it's description?

    *Of the few reports I've seen regarding them only going to 14, it's always "I heard from..." Couple that with people using them successfully (to 15) to test xp bonus effects (some did this before or to confirm Cordovans' statement) and it would appear that if there is a "14" issue it's situational at worst. (not that being situational would excuse it!)

    All this "OMG if I can't get a bonus, I won't waste my money" seems a bit off to me. Sure, I've done enough TRing to understand the issues surrounding xp at those top heroic levels, but even Nepalm doesn't clear 7-15 or 8-16 in the five minutes it takes to stone those levels (I'm sure he takes at least double that ) The stones are still a short cut no matter how you slice it. No, the xp/TP ratio isn't as efficient, but it's still a significant RL time saver...

    I guess I look at the demise of the (almost certainly unintended) bonus xp as more of an "It was fun while it lasted" kind of thing, ala the "instant finish" bug; and am confused about why I seem to be the only one...
    Here is my standpoint on that topic:
    The stones were introduced last year, and yes the bonus xp working on the stone was an uninteded discovery. There was no statement about WAI or bug, not listed in official bug list. Not redflagging the stones, and releasing them WITH that property a couple of times shows me, its WAI. If i had a product, that i knew was bugged, i wouldnt release it AGAIN until it is fixed. Doing so is acknowledging it as WAI.

    You was able to skip a lot of the content, yes, but as turbine recognized aswell, the xp curve is fairly high at the end, leaving you grinding xp nearly towards mindlessness. The stone, with bonus, helped to reduce it.

    I am playign this game since release. I was there when GH was endgame, for a way too long time. I was there when orchard and meridia were endgame, and boy did we rejoyce when the siber atoll appeared. My main char is in his 18th life so far, he has a couple to go. Without the TRs alone i played like 30 chars to cap. So i was kind of happy when i learned i could skip the old content which i know way too well, and focus on the new stuff. I was actually hoping to push my main into his final life (eTR, iTR excluded) to play the new xpansion.
    Am i sad about the xp stone changes? deffo
    Can i understand the move? partly yes, on the other hand no, because those stones push u straight into the tough xp area.

    Is it a fail: yes, players were saving up tons of cash for new ottos and sov pots, and they get, well Bigby's. And its pure market from here on. Not the product i want, check it out, isnt worth the points for me, gbye.

    Its like saving for a Porsche and the day your only dealer reopens you have to find out he is only selling Priusses now
    Last edited by TimethiefXVI; 07-05-2013 at 02:27 AM.
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  17. #17
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    Thumbs down Boxes...

    Permabanned, your nose smells funny....

  18. #18
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    Satisfaction = Expectation - Reality

    A Turbine employee suggested we would be getting something nicer than Otto's boxes. I am not blaming him because he may not have known about the xp bonuses from Otto's and made that comment based on the lower price and 50% pots inside.

    But for most players, I think Expectations were set higher than Otto's Boxes and reality came in way lower.

    So yeah, it's a let down but Quartermaster does a great job and just made an honest mistake here. I'll lgikely buy a few boxes, but I definitely bought more Otto's boxes bacause the xp bonuses were so well known for so long so it seemed to be WAI.

    We know Bigby's Boxes are definitely working as intended, but I am would only be disappointed if they nerfed the existing Otto's boxes which were purchased after months of the XP bonuses being known and discussed on the forums. Turbine didn't do that so I thank them for that. I am saving my Otto's boxes for the epic TR system.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    I never thought the 8-16 stones granting bonus xp was wai, did you?

    Im fairly certain that I remember people posting their delighted surprise at the extra benefits, indicating that they initially purchased the stone for it's 8-16 benefits, not knowing there would be more.
    Well at $50 I didn't buy those initial stones UNTIL I learned that they stacked with XP bonuses. I assumed it was WAI because it promoted even more store sales. I not only had to buy that $50 box but now I was inspired to also buy the $5 (or whatever it is) 50% xp potion. It made perfect sense that they would let store items stack to increase sales of both of them. It's called tied selling in marketing and its generally such an effective sales idea that it isn't even allowed in some industries and countries because its seen as too powerful a marketing tool.

    If the Ottos' stones had only ever functioned according to their description, would that have really curbed purchases?
    Oh yeah. Some would have bought, I wouldn't have. I'm sure I'm not alone. I find the stretch from 16-20 to be the worst in the game. I often have characters "stranded" at 16-19 and I just leave them there for months because I don't enjoy the grind at that point. Being able to jump right past part of that window and then being able to go back to do "once and done" runs in IQ/RR/Vale to cap was what made those stones valuable. Honestly I enjoy 8-GH because even on a TR2 the XP curve is reasonable compared to the content.

    I understand it's a total let down that these new stones only do what they *say* and nothing more, but is it really that much of a shock? Are you really expecting that the next time Ottos' shows up, it will provide all the extra bonus, and not be recoded to function according to it's description?
    Yes, change in function without disclosure is a surprise, pretty much by definition.

    All this "OMG if I can't get a bonus, I won't waste my money" seems a bit off to me. Sure, I've done enough TRing to understand the issues surrounding xp at those top heroic levels, but even Nepalm doesn't clear 7-15 or 8-16 in the five minutes it takes to stone those levels (I'm sure he takes at least double that ) The stones are still a short cut no matter how you slice it. No, the xp/TP ratio isn't as efficient, but it's still a significant RL time saver...
    I might pay $2000 for someone to paint my house as a time saver and yet not be willing to pay $4000 for the same job. Yes its a time saver, but the price point is now worse which means its much less interesting buying it.

  20. #20
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I think a relatively similar amount of boxes would have sold if it never allowed for XP boost stacking.
    The evidence in this thread shows otherwise. Although I do agree with you that what Turbine did, giving it and then taking it away, has made the outcry much much much worse.

    The sheer amount of negative feedback Im seeing on the boards and in game in relation to this new bigbys box, shows that p2w is now ingrained so much into the game culture at this point that some people feel its mandatory for it to be in place in order for them to enjoy playing.
    That's a load of biased ****. It is not "mandatory" to have a box, this entire threat is about people saying "nope, its not worth it anymore" which is the opposite of feeling it is mandatory. Its all about people liking the other convinience to cost trade off and feeling that the price point for the new trade off is a worse deal (which it mathematically and gameplay wise is) and feeling that the new worse price point isn't worth investing in (or investing as much in) for the lower convenience level.

    Saying I won't buy a BMW because the new price point is too high compared to the Lincoln doesn't mean I think BMW is mandatory. It means I'd like a BMW but I ain't paying that much for it so I guess its a Lincoln or nothing.

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