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  1. #21
    The Hatchery Paleus's Avatar
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    Perhaps I have no standing in this discussion given I never used XP stones beyond the first one back when they originally came out. However, it seems rather off the mark to me for people to argue for the ability to pay to skip game content. Sure, the TR XP curve and required amount of XP to level successive lives is currently onerous, but the solution should be to address the XP rather than demanding ever more expensive ways to pay Turbine to avoid a bad XP system (store pots, xp stones etc). That just incentivizes creating onerous XP systems in the first place. Similarly, if the argument is that you've run the content hundreds of times and don't want to run it again, then the focus should be on paying for content, not paying to skip content. It reminds me of the problem of reality shows, its cheaper to produce gimmicks than content, and if people continue watching or buying it then that slowly replaces content as a priority.

    I think the recent announcement of changes to the XP system are a good start, and the place where people should be focused. The fact that XP stones now work as per their description doesn't really bother me. Other than the fact that apparently Turbine can make something work as its described, which given the many other elements of the game that don't work per their official description seems like a small miracle. But then I return to the point of Turbine will place a priority on fixing the things that players spend money on. Hmm, that gives me an idea for a store item (Otto's Miracle Ladder Climbing Assistant).
    Kobold never forgive....kobold remember waterworks.

    Quote Originally Posted by KookieKobold View Post
    i'll be putting a bug into our system.

  2. #22
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    I never thought the 8-16 stones granting bonus xp was wai, did you?
    Yes, yes I did think it was working as intended as the only XP in game that isn't getting augmented is xp granted from the Monster Manual currently.

    Also add into it the original stones granted the bonus XP, and every release of Otto's box stones granted additional XP and no representative from Turbine ever made the comment of "oops.. they shouldn't be doing that. Enjoy it while it lasts." as they have in the past. (Such as bags that did not BTC out of the store.)

    So what of the bonuses themselves?


    Item based ala voice of the master?
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Voice_of_the_Master
    Ok, if you want to say this one shouldn't, I won't argue. It does call out "quest xp" directly.

    Ship shrine XP? I haven't a clue on this one. I'd have to be able to be in game to look it up as Turbine nor Wiki has a picture up for verbatim description.

    VIP 10% bonus? Again, not certain. Turbine does not list it in their page at all, and the wiki just has a comment about it.

    DDO store Elixers. No, this one per description should be effecting it. "This amazing concoction heightens he senses, sharpens the mind, and greatly enhances learning ablity. Consuming this elixir grants your character a +50% bonus on all earned experience for the next 3 hours that you are logged in and in a quest. (The effect timer pauses while you are in public areas.)"
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Experience_E...Back_to_top.29
    For that matter it should also be effecting Monster Manual but does not.

    Tomes of Experience. This one calls out the term of "dungeon", so I am willing to equate that to "quest" and agreeable that it would not apply, much like item based xp bonus.
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Tome_of_Learning


    So of all bonus we are granted, IMO Elixir and VIP should be counting on them at a minimum.

  3. #23
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post


    So of all bonus we are granted, IMO Elixir and VIP should be counting on them at a minimum.

    Agreed MM. If nothing else, the ViP bonus should count on all boxes.

    I do not use these boxes at all, I prefer to play the game vs paying to skip playing the game but I do want to try to support those that do buy them.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  4. #24
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Double post.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 07-05-2013 at 09:00 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  5. #25
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I am one that actually believes that the Bonus XP working on the Otto's box stone could be classified as an Unexpected/Unintended Feature by the developers. It is very possible that the mechanic to prevent these bonuses from "Working" was not available.

    However, I think it would have been good if Turbine would have mentioned that they have removed this Unexpected/Unintended Feature from the Bigby's Hand stone.

    I don't think there would have been as much uproar about the stone only taking characters from 7 to 15 if they were upfront that the stone did exactly that.

    I did by an Otto's box and did work the XP machine to "By-Pass" a life quickly and I did enjoy only having to earn 900K to cap (or basically only had to earn enough XP on my 3+ lifer of a 1st life character 1 to 8 and 19ish to 20) before I TR'd back to the class I actually wanted.

    I do agree that I believe the Otto's box sales would have been reduced without the feature and possibly one of two things would have happened.

    1. They would have been sold once - And we never would see them again
    2. They would have reduced the price of 8 level skipping to find where the Market would be willing to purchase - probably in the 3K range (Basing this on XP potion cost vs Additional XP earned MMV)

  6. #26
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    The evidence in this thread shows otherwise. Although I do agree with you that what Turbine did, giving it and then taking it away, has made the outcry much much much worse.
    There is no evidence in this thread that shows otherwise. If people did not ever even know about stacking XP affecting the amount of XP awarded, and it never happened that way in the first place, there never would have been a point of reference to compare that "value" to in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    That's a load of biased ****. It is not "mandatory" to have a box, this entire threat is about people saying "nope, its not worth it anymore" which is the opposite of feeling it is mandatory. Its all about people liking the other convinience to cost trade off and feeling that the price point for the new trade off is a worse deal (which it mathematically and gameplay wise is) and feeling that the new worse price point isn't worth investing in (or investing as much in) for the lower convenience level.

    Saying I won't buy a BMW because the new price point is too high compared to the Lincoln doesn't mean I think BMW is mandatory. It means I'd like a BMW but I ain't paying that much for it so I guess its a Lincoln or nothing.
    In this thread and others people have stated they WILL_NOT_TR_evAr_again if they only sell bigbys and not ottos, because of the waste of time factor. Sounds like they are declaring that is it mandatory for them to be able to go from 8-19 in order to have fun TRing. This level of entitlement is now clearly ingrained into the game culture to the point where peoples enjoyment of the game now hinges on being able to pay to not play it.

    Again, all Turbine had to do to illustrate how hooked some people are on it was scale the benefits back a bit, then observe the reactions. Remember when I was talking about being careful that p2w doesn't become the norm in order to enjoy playing. Im seeing posts indicating that exactly this has happened to some people.

    Car analogies are hilarious. Heres a more accurate one in relation to this situation. Its not between the BMW or the Lincoln. What people are seeing here is Turbine could replace the BMW with the Lincoln, and people are saying they wont buy the Lincoln if they do. They want the BMW, or they wont drive any more.
    Last edited by Chai; 07-05-2013 at 09:26 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Yes, yes I did think it was working as intended as the only XP in game that isn't getting augmented is xp granted from the Monster Manual currently.
    Not true. Mini-quests in Meridia such as: "Finding Meridia", "Craft Shavarath Stone" and "Flag for Shroud" or whatever their names are, also don't get any bonuses to exp, no VIP, nothing. Too bad they don't make more of those.

  8. #28
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gempoult View Post
    Not true. Mini-quests in Meridia such as: "Finding Meridia", "Craft Shavarath Stone" and "Flag for Shroud" or whatever their names are, also don't get any bonuses to exp, no VIP, nothing. Too bad they don't make more of those.
    Ah, but as those are quests, they should be modified by ALL. Got to remember to bug report those.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Car analogies are hilarious. Heres a more accurate one in relation to this situation. Its not between the BMW or the Lincoln. What people are seeing here is Turbine could replace the BMW with the Lincoln, and people are saying they wont buy the Lincoln if they do. They want the BMW, or they wont drive any more.
    The one that sprang to mind for me was this.

    Guy moves to a new town and calls to have basic cable installed. They come and set up the cable box, and that evening the guy is flipping channels and discovers that he has HBO. "Cool!" he thinks, and of course doesn't call to tell the cable company about it. He keeps using his free HBO month after month, and then one day turns on the TV and the HBO is gone.

    What does he do then -- call up the cable company and scream at them that he's going to ragequit his cable service because he's no longer getting something extra for free?

    ETA: These stones are not "earned experience" and the elixirs should not apply. They have always been advertised as taking you to a specific level, not a level 3 above that.

  10. #30
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    I did not purchase an Otto’s box until I heard from friends that it could take you to 18 or 19. That is not the point of this.

    The xp stone is now giving what it says it is supposed to, 8 levels. Many might have paid for the new box thinking that the old bonuses would apply. This is in no way Turbine’s fault.

    I also understand that making this way was a fix. But it also resonates “Buyer beware”. It is sad that it needs to be said, but with bait/switch running crazy the way it is, I am afraid to buy any damn thing.

    If people are that naïve or stupid to spend money, knowing Turbine’s track record, it is their own fault. It is no secret that this is happening and has been happening for a while.
    Flabby-Flaber-Flabo--Heifer-Oinks

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  11. #31
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    Ok i will say this again. i like them. As for the otto boxes it didnt make 50% xp sales when it came with 5 already inside. So back on topic i bought one already. Even thinking of doing a 2nd box. Why because there are classes i still hate to play. i dont care if it doesnt give me additional xp or not. it will take me to the level 15 at least which it says. im fine with that. Oh did i mention my tr friend has bought one and is even considering buying another?


    So i guess some people still like it. Oh yeah another friend of mine who has NEVER seen the otto's box is buying one when he trs. Guess that thought that everyone thinks its a bad idea goes out the window. mmmm. gotta love that. So my point is you guys think you're so entitled to stuff which amazes me. I go with what it says. So i play the lives i love all the way through and i will still use the stones for lives i hate or would rather start mid way then full 1-25.

    the additional bonus xp from the otto's box was just that a perk. that's it. it was never mentioned if it was intended or a whoops. So you can't get all butthurt that this one is actually intended. so come up with all your theories all ya want until you know what turbine was doing you cant say if it was wai or whoops.

  12. #32
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I did not purchase an Otto’s box until I heard from friends that it could take you to 18 or 19. That is not the point of this.

    The xp stone is now giving what it says it is supposed to, 8 levels. Many might have paid for the new box thinking that the old bonuses would apply. This is in no way Turbine’s fault.

    I also understand that making this way was a fix. But it also resonates “Buyer beware”. It is sad that it needs to be said, but with bait/switch running crazy the way it is, I am afraid to buy any damn thing.

    If people are that naïve or stupid to spend money, knowing Turbine’s track record, it is their own fault. It is no secret that this is happening and has been happening for a while.
    there is no buyer's beware needed. they think they deserve that perk that turbine has had no official answer on. Except the one we saw on the new box. So there is no bait and switch. The box did exactly what it said to level 16. Didnt it? it didnt take you to 13 and say whoops no more. the bonus xp was exactly that bonus intended or no. so there is 0 bait and switch involved.

    as in this stone same thing it does what it says. if you got to 17 from it well that was just awesome because yet again that was NOT an advertised effect. So please at least know what you're talking about.

  13. #33
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkonas View Post
    there is no buyer's beware needed. they think they deserve that perk that turbine has had no official answer on. Except the one we saw on the new box. So there is no bait and switch. The box did exactly what it said to level 16. Didnt it? it didnt take you to 13 and say whoops no more. the bonus xp was exactly that bonus intended or no. so there is 0 bait and switch involved.

    as in this stone same thing it does what it says. if you got to 17 from it well that was just awesome because yet again that was NOT an advertised effect. So please at least know what you're talking about.
    If you look, you will see that Turbine is not at fault for this. So please read before you criticize.

    There was nothing in release notes that they were “fixing” the way that the xp was given out. I am also sure that there was “no official word” that challenges were going to get their ingredients and xp nerfed, until the sold the quota and then they would address the mob. I am also sure that they did not think the no ML rings were OP until everyone went out and paid for the pack. When they met the quota, then they decided to inform the mob that it was OP. Now on Lama, those same rings have a ML? Why is that? Did they just now see that they were OP? You won’t lose ED xp through tr? Remember hearing that a year ago? After everyone buys it “meet the quota”, we here word that they are changing it.

    I could go on for a few hours, but I am going to mow the grass. Once again, I do not blame Turbine. They can make money no matter how they have to get it for all I care. I am just pointing out that people should not complain when they do not get what they think they are. The writing has been on the wall for a while.
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  14. #34
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I am just pointing out that people should not complain when they do not get what they think they are.
    Case example in real life. Coke changed the formula in the 80s. Huge fiasco arose.
    Different product, same name. Emm....

    When I buy a product I'm expecting a certain "service" when that service is not met you think we should not complain? Sorry, but I'm not sheeple even if you want the rest of us to act so.

  15. #35
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Case example in real life. Coke changed the formula in the 80s. Huge fiasco arose.
    Different product, same name. Emm....

    When I buy a product I'm expecting a certain "service" when that service is not met you think we should not complain? Sorry, but I'm not sheeple even if you want the rest of us to act so.
    By all means complain. For me I have given up. No offense to you (and not directed at you), but don’t come back in three weeks and say “I can’t believe that they just “insert a bait/switch”.

    If someone buys a few of these, feels ripped off, why buy anything else? Fool me once and all.
    Flabby-Flaber-Flabo--Heifer-Oinks

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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    When I buy a product I'm expecting a certain "service" when that service is not met you think we should not complain?
    When you are getting what the product is supposed to do and are only upset about no longer getting something extra, then yes, you should not complain.

  17. #37
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    By all means complain. For me I have given up. No offense to you (and not directed at you), but don’t come back in three weeks and say “I can’t believe that they just “insert a bait/switch”.

    If someone buys a few of these, feels ripped off, why buy anything else? Fool me once and all.
    No offense is taken. I just found your statement too general to agree with. This statement here? No disagreement, other than the fact I'd be saying people claiming bait and switch buying them after it was clarified about the bonus will not be getting a whole lot of sympathy from me. So no "three" weeks here.

  18. #38
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I think a relatively similar amount of boxes would have sold if it never allowed for XP boost stacking. Never having had the boost stacking is better marketing than having it and then taking it away. No one would have known it worked any other way, and sales would not have been affected. Where Turbine would have lost out is on the additional 50% pots that get purchased along with the boxes, had the stones not allowed XP boost stacking.
    Totally.

    It's an odd thing that Turbine's largest, most repeated mistake, is the above - introduce something new, that is full of benefits, to the point of being overpowered, and then going "oops! let's nerf that to normality."

    Of course this kind of bait and switch is going to make people angry. They need a much more careful approach to introducing new items/powers/etc., that starts low and goes hi. Kind of like what they're doing with the enhancement pass - start at bottom low so that every increase in power is a boon.

    The sheer amount of negative feedback Im seeing on the boards and in game in relation to this new bigbys box, shows that p2w is now ingrained so much into the game culture at this point that some people feel its mandatory for it to be in place in order for them to enjoy playing. Turn the way back machine to 2009, when people were arguing that since its not necessary, its not p2w. Where are many of those people now I wonder? Gone, because at some point they realized the trap for what it was, at exactly the same point they realized that they MUST succumb to the cash grab that allows them to circumvent/mitigate irritating grind mechanics in order to enjoy playing, and then too realized this has happened repeatedly since its inception.

    All Turbine had to do to show us how much this entitlement to paid grind circumvention is ingrained into the games culture, is scale the benefits of one item back somewhat, then sit back, and observe.
    Ouch! That's kind of sad.

    Can XP stones be looted in game? If not, they're pay to beat the system. Mind you, I don't get why people would beat the system unless is to skip levels in an undesireable class for the purpose of TRing.

    It is amazing that a company can create obstacles and sell their circumvention. It's kind of like roaming fees...

  19. #39
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkonas View Post
    there is no buyer's beware needed. they think they deserve that perk that turbine has had no official answer on. Except the one we saw on the new box. So there is no bait and switch. The box did exactly what it said to level 16. Didnt it? it didnt take you to 13 and say whoops no more. the bonus xp was exactly that bonus intended or no. so there is 0 bait and switch involved.

    as in this stone same thing it does what it says. if you got to 17 from it well that was just awesome because yet again that was NOT an advertised effect. So please at least know what you're talking about.
    You're ignoring the power of past experience. The past experience of people who bought the Otto's boxes was that experience boosts would apply. That creates expectation - and certainly the creates of the Bigby's boxes know this. So they should have included a "XP pots and boosts will not affect this leveling stone." To not do so is irresponsible - and kind of strange. I mean, why would you want to anger your customer base? Just tell them in detail what they're buying. Then, if someone becomes unhappy, at least they can think "well, I read the information and bought it anyways, so my unhappiness is my own doing. Next time I'll spend that 30$ on beer, not TP."

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    I guess my issue in the matter is that while I can intellectually understand the math problem irritating people, I just can't personally identify with it. It always seemed like a "too good to be true" kind of thing, so it came as no surprise, to me anyways, when the ride was over.

    Thanx all for the input
    I feel about the same way. I always assumed that them working with bonuses was a bug and expected, well wasn't surprised about with as on the ball as Turbine is with bug fixes, the change.

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