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  1. #1
    Community Member tralfaz81's Avatar
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    Default When The Enhancement Pass Rolls Out

    I'm going to update here instead of taking the chance that my corrections get lost in all the other post.

    Having spent considerable more time looking at it, I can update and change a few of my complaints.

    Barbarian Power Attack - Apparently it's a glitch with humans, it's supposed to stay active when raging and not toggle itself off. The bug has been reported.

    Barbarian Power Rage - DOES exist, I overlooked it when first using the new tree system. However, it has been nerfed - there's now only Power Rage I-III, instead of Power Rage I-IV, removing a point of strength from our builds.

    Frenzied Berserker - no longer exist. The new tree offers Frenzy, Cleave, and Death Frenzy - but these used to be packaged with Frenzied Berserker I-III. Most of the other benefits are still available...sort of. But they're scattered out through the different paths.

    The glancing blow weapon effects are scattered over the Frenzied Berserker tree, as is Cleave - in fact, that's pretty much all a Frenzied Berserker is now. The mass of the power comes from the Cleaves and they eat up more hitpoints than before to use them.

    The critical multiplier is in the top tier of the Ravager tree - mostly. It tops out at +2 now, instead of the +3 we used to get. It takes 40 points in that tree to get it and you can't have it and the top tier Cleave both - you have to pick one.

    Near as I can tell, the Barbarian Capstone and its benefits are gone as well now.

    In my opinion, right now what we're being offered is the power we had before being diluted into multiple new clickies. You'll end up with far more timers to keep track of, none of which seem to pack the punch they used to.

    And unless I'm overlooking it, there's no longer any additional DR enhancements offered.

    Below is the original post


    When the enhancement pass rolls out, I'm quitting. Since I wasn't finding much information about the changes to my class of choice, I wasted a day downloading and installing the test server so I could see first hand, and I'm not the least bit happy. And a quick note about Barbarians, since I know there's the misconception they're weak - I'll gladly admit that with the old system, they're a very easy class to gimp up and make weak, but a well planned barb is just as strong or stronger as any other class. Even hitting epic levels, I never go lower than 3rd as far as kills goes. Usually I'm leading at the number one slot or, if there's a good wiz or sorc in the group, I'll hit number two - but the top two of us normally account for over half the kills in that quest. That includes me being fairly self healing and even occasionally healing others.

    I've reset the new stats 3 times so far, and each time I've ended with a toon that was a weak as my first life. Now I'm going to allow for error in this, I might be overlooking things. I have no doubt someone will correct me if I have. But so far, here's my issues with the new system.

    First off, human adaptability is no longer that adaptable. You get one point to add to your stats, and any others you add are directly connected to whatever enhancements you choose to boost. You can add points to a stat but only gain the effect for those 20 second increments when using that clickie.

    The biggest reason to play a human was the flexibility they offered, allowing you a little more room to tweak your class how you want it than other races. I ended up spending 5 points in the race tree, but any more seemed like a waste.

    I find it funny that they offer a Frenzied Berserker tree, but spread basic Barb requirements over all 3 trees. Apparently only Occult Slayers need to have the full length of their rage and only Ravangers need Hardy Rage and a Power Attack. So I have to drop points into trees by picking enhancements I don't need, just to pick up a few basic barb abilities.

    I DID overlook the power rage. It is under frenzied and I was thinking it was something else - but it has been nerfed by one - it only goes up to three now instead of the four it used to be. Must be something else I'm overlooking then, because I'm still raging with 4 less str points than before. But want to point out, my original complaint about power rage was my mistake.

    As is the way they have Power Attack set up. I'm not sure if it's intended or not, but right now you can't rage AND power attack at the same time - which defeats the purpose of taking power attack. If you don't have or don't use power attack, it makes a significant increase in...well, the power of your attack. I can tell when I forgot to flip it on because I'm doing easily 15-25% less damage than normal.

    Long and the short of it, even outside of losing the 4 str points when at full rage from the changes, I'm seeing a huge drop in damage from what I had before. On the test server, I was seeing non crit damage as low as 25 hit points worth of damage - and I'm level 25! On a low damage hit, 50 points of damage used to be the lowest I ever went. I dropped both versions of my toons into a low level wilderness area and with the old system, my average low, no crit hits were in the 80-100 point range (not counting stacking damage), while on the test server, the average was closer to 50-70. I could kill level 10 creatures with one swing, now it's taking 2 to 3.

    I know the new system add various other perks and stacking damage, but it's flat out not adding up to what it was doing before. I hate to think what newbs are going to do building a barb with the new system - they're going to be even weaker than before.

    But this much of a nerf to a class that was already challenging to design and play - if it rolls out, Turbine has seen its last penny from me.
    Last edited by tralfaz81; 07-05-2013 at 06:57 PM.
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  2. #2
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    Feeling much the same way about my rogue and monk builds. No way to reproduce what took me four years of playing, hours of research, and hours of trial builds to get what I wanted. Wasted time and effort once the new pass goes live.
    There is no free lunch.

  3. #3
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    I would give it some time. As we get closer to the release we will have a better picture of how the enhancement pass is shaping up. Fill out a survey on Lam and wait until the next show and tell to see if they are moving in the right direction.
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  4. #4
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    your post has now made me want to waste the time to download Lama and see for myself. I stopped reading after a barb cant rage and have PA and that would be enough to quit DDO myself. it sounds like the enhancements are actually going backwards and ive read enough doom about them to check things out on my own. basic barb abilities spread out across 3 trees? c'mon.

  5. #5
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    your post has now made me want to waste the time to download Lama and see for myself. I stopped reading after a barb cant rage and have PA and that would be enough to quit DDO myself. it sounds like the enhancements are actually going backwards and ive read enough doom about them to check things out on my own. basic barb abilities spread out across 3 trees? c'mon.
    Barb raging, can't make super strong hit with less accuracy. That makes sense right? Oh wait....

    I probably won't be quitting, but wow this system is a fail.

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    Default don't get it

    Why do they continually make us weaker? I know this is a bit off topic but I feel the same way with my Druid. I understand that now Sunburst will have a cool down of 2 minutes instead of 6 secs wow! Storm of vengeance now a cool down of 2 minutes also. Haven't even looked into the new enhancement changes for Druids yet almost afraid to.

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    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grahson View Post
    Why do they continually make us weaker? I know this is a bit off topic but I feel the same way with my Druid. I understand that now Sunburst will have a cool down of 2 minutes instead of 6 secs wow! Storm of vengeance now a cool down of 2 minutes also. Haven't even looked into the new enhancement changes for Druids yet almost afraid to.
    Druids will be getting their own SLAs. Sunburst and Storm of Vengeance will be among them. THOSE will have 2-minute cooldowns. Not the spells.
    All that is wrong with DDO, life, taxes, poltics, religion, music, fast food, education, the criminal justice system, the weather, society, the universe, and previously-discontinued-but-now-on-their-way-back snack cakes, is all the fault of Wizards of the Coast. I know this because Fred told me so, and Mind Flayers are smart.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by tralfaz81 View Post
    Even hitting epic levels, I never go lower than 3rd as far as kills goes. Usually I'm leading at the number one slot or, if there's a good wiz or sorc in the group, I'll hit number two - but the top two of us normally account for over half the kills in that quest.
    If you're measuring your DPS and quality of your build based on the number of last-hits that you get from the killcount then you're doing it wrong. Most people grow out of that after a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by tralfaz81 View Post
    First off, human adaptability is no longer that adaptable. You get one point to add to your stats, and any others you add are directly connected to whatever enhancements you choose to boost. You can add points to a stat but only gain the effect for those 20 second increments when using that clickie.
    Nope. You get Human Adaptability as a core ability option at level 2 and Greater Human Adaptability at level 8 as your 4th core ability. You then have up to 12 additional stat points during action boosts if you were to take all 3 tiers of all 4 Action Surge enhancements. They should unlink all of the core abilities and make them freely selectable based on your character level for racial trees and class level for class trees to improve things.

    Quote Originally Posted by tralfaz81 View Post
    The biggest reason to play a human was the flexibility they offered, allowing you a little more room to tweak your class how you want it than other races. I ended up spending 5 points in the race tree, but any more seemed like a waste.
    Might be worth taking another look. Spend 9 points on the first 2 racial core abilities and maxing out the first Action surge option and you will have a +20% damage action boost that gives you +4 STR. You could spend another 6 points to increase your glancing blow chance by another 6% if you spent points in the relevant Fighting Style enhancement.

    Quote Originally Posted by tralfaz81 View Post
    I find it funny that they offer a Frenzied Berserker tree, but spread basic Barb requirements over all 3 trees. Apparently only Occult Slayers need to have the full length of their rage and only Ravangers need Hardy Rage and a Power Attack. So I have to drop points into trees by picking enhancements I don't need, just to pick up a few basic barb abilities.
    You realise that you can spend points in more than one tree. I've just spent 30 seconds to roll up a barbarian and spent 40 points to pick up a stack of options, including 8x 20% damage boost and 8x 30% damage boost. The Action Surge STR boost doesn't update the Character sheet, so I've bug reported it. All the things you describe are all Tier 1 abilities, so easy to get. Here's a pic of them selected.


    Quote Originally Posted by tralfaz81 View Post
    Apparently none of the 3 trees need power rage - because I couldn't find anything remotely like it under any tree. That's 4 points of rage based str gone right off the bat, and all the benefits that came with it - which is a huge deduction in my hitting power.
    Power Rage is in the Half-Orc racial tree and is a first tier ability in Frenzied Berserker.

    Quote Originally Posted by tralfaz81 View Post
    As is the way they have Power Attack set up. I'm not sure if it's intended or not, but right now you can't rage AND power attack at the same time - which defeats the purpose of taking power attack. If you don't have or don't use power attack, it makes a significant increase in...well, the power of your attack. I can tell when I forgot to flip it on because I'm doing easily 15-25% less damage than normal.
    Warforged, half-orc and bladeforged get Improved Power Attack, it's also displayed as a Tier 1 ability in the Ravager tree, but has the requirements for a Tier 5 ability which looks like a bug. Power attack isn't display an increase in damage in your inventory, which looks like another bug. But you can definitely Rage with power Attack on, so not sure where you're getting that from.

    Quote Originally Posted by tralfaz81 View Post
    Long and the short of it, even outside of losing the 4 str points when at full rage from the changes, I'm seeing a huge drop in damage from what I had before. On the test server, I was seeing non crit damage as low as 25 hit points worth of damage - and I'm level 25! On a low damage hit, 50 points of damage used to be the lowest I ever went. I dropped both versions of my toons into a low level wilderness area and with the old system, my average low, no crit hits were in the 80-100 point range (not counting stacking damage), while on the test server, the average was closer to 50-70. I could kill level 10 creatures with one swing, now it's taking 2 to 3.
    Bug report it. You can calculate what your weapon damage should be, so it's easy enough to see if Rage, Power attack and Damage boosts are working.

    Quote Originally Posted by tralfaz81 View Post
    I know the new system add various other perks and stacking damage, but it's flat out not adding up to what it was doing before. I hate to think what newbs are going to do building a barb with the new system - they're going to be even weaker than before.
    Bug report your findings, with accurate numbers and calculations.

    Quote Originally Posted by tralfaz81 View Post
    But this much of a nerf to a class that was already challenging to design and play - if it rolls out, Turbine has seen its last penny from me.
    Bug report your findings, with accurate numbers and calculations.

    I'm not saying that it's all working as it should. But I think you might want to take another look at what you were trying to achieve.

  9. #9
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grahson View Post
    Why do they continually make us weaker? I know this is a bit off topic but I feel the same way with my Druid. I understand that now Sunburst will have a cool down of 2 minutes instead of 6 secs wow! Storm of vengeance now a cool down of 2 minutes also. Haven't even looked into the new enhancement changes for Druids yet almost afraid to.
    What is the point really of an offensive sla that mimics a spell, if it has a cooldown of 2 minutes? It has the same cooldown as manyshot? This makes me hard pressed to even think of a reason to put this ability on a hotbar. Maybe 30 seconds at most for cooldown. Two minutes? That's junk unfortunately.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    What is the point really of an offensive sla that mimics a spell, if it has a cooldown of 2 minutes? It has the same cooldown as manyshot? This makes me hard pressed to even think of a reason to put this ability on a hotbar. Maybe 30 seconds at most for cooldown. Two minutes? That's junk unfortunately.
    SP savings. If you cast SoV at a steady every 30 seconds pace, the SLA just saved you ~25% of your SoV casting costs. If you average closer to a one every 60 seconds pace, your SoV SP cost just dropped by ~50%. (This all assuming you can still meta your SLAs?) If saving that much SP is junk, I'll take that junk
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    This makes me hard pressed to even think of a reason to put this ability on a hotbar.
    How about you get free metas on SLAs, and they have lower base costs than the spell to begin with?

  12. #12
    Community Member tralfaz81's Avatar
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    Sure, lets do this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    If you're measuring your DPS and quality of your build based on the number of last-hits that you get from the killcount then you're doing it wrong. Most people grow out of that after a while.
    Not measured in last to hit, tyvm. More measured in how many I take down in one swing, considering a heroic crit hits in the 1-3k range of damage and I've seen my epic crits hit for over 6k. If anything, I lose most of my kills from a spell slinger sniping to avoid agro or nuking a mob when I'm a swing away from finishing my kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Nope. You get Human Adaptability as a core ability option at level 2 and Greater Human Adaptability at level 8 as your 4th core ability. You then have up to 12 additional stat points during action boosts if you were to take all 3 tiers of all 4 Action Surge enhancements. They should unlink all of the core abilities and make them freely selectable based on your character level for racial trees and class level for class trees to improve things.
    Not exactly sure how that's a 'nope' when everything you said basically agrees with what I was saying - outside of pointing out that it eats up considerably more points in that tree now to use it than it did - they shouldn't be linked to the core ability and should work independently - which was my point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Might be worth taking another look. Spend 9 points on the first 2 racial core abilities and maxing out the first Action surge option and you will have a +20% damage action boost that gives you +4 STR. You could spend another 6 points to increase your glancing blow chance by another 6% if you spent points in the relevant Fighting Style enhancement.
    That action boost used to be part of the FB requirements and part of the package deal. It wouldn't give me back what I lost at all - PLUS its eating up more points in the human tree that should be being used to open up higher tier abilities in one or two of the class trees.

    I DID overlook the power rage. It is under frenzied and I was thinking it was something else - but it has been nerfed by one - it only goes up to three now instead of the four it used to be. Must be something else I'm overlooking then, because I'm still raging with 4 less str points than before.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    You realise that you can spend points in more than one tree. I've just spent 30 seconds to roll up a barbarian and spent 40 points to pick up a stack of options, including 8x 20% damage boost and 8x 30% damage boost. The Action Surge STR boost doesn't update the Character sheet, so I've bug reported it. All the things you describe are all Tier 1 abilities, so easy to get. Here's a pic of them selected.
    Yes I realize that...because that was one of my complaints, having to open up other trees to get my basic enhancements - you realize you can read a whole post before making up your mind and criticizing, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Power Rage is in the Half-Orc racial tree and is a first tier ability in Frenzied Berserker.
    It's on human too, that was my over sight - but it is less than it was before.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Warforged, half-orc and bladeforged get Improved Power Attack, it's also displayed as a Tier 1 ability in the Ravager tree, but has the requirements for a Tier 5 ability which looks like a bug. Power attack isn't display an increase in damage in your inventory, which looks like another bug. But you can definitely Rage with power Attack on, so not sure where you're getting that from.
    I'm getting that from every time I hit rage, it turned my power attack off. The first few times I thought I just moved too quickly and it didn't take (you have to sit still for like 2 seconds other wise it interrupts it). Even once the border was blue, as soon as I raged, it turned it off - and won't let me activate it while raged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Bug report it. You can calculate what your weapon damage should be, so it's easy enough to see if Rage, Power attack and Damage boosts are working.


    I'm not saying that it's all working as it should. But I think you might want to take another look at what you were trying to achieve.
    And as I've mentioned, I've played with and reset the enhancements 3 different times. The last one was a slight improvement - I managed to get my con back where it was supposed to be, but not my base str since its not offered in the barb tree and I could only get a single point from my racial tree. Even trying to layer on extra damage from various enhancements, I was still hitting at an alarmingly lower rate than my original toon I transferred to the testing server.

    And which one of the 17 enhancements that directly connect to the damage I deal I picked should I be reporting? Nearly half of the enhancements I picked add to my over all DPS and there's no way to tell which one, or which many, are not doing what they're supposed to - but I suspect it just doesn't add up to the damage I was doing before.

    Sorry if I was snitty, but you were a bit on the condescending side.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grahson View Post
    Why do they continually make us weaker? I know this is a bit off topic but I feel the same way with my Druid. I understand that now Sunburst will have a cool down of 2 minutes instead of 6 secs wow! Storm of vengeance now a cool down of 2 minutes also. Haven't even looked into the new enhancement changes for Druids yet almost afraid to.
    Roll a toon on test - it's worse than you thought.

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    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RudedawCDN View Post
    Roll a toon on test - it's worse than you thought.

    You have to take Seasoned and you have to decide between melee or casting - no more hybreds!

    That's just completely unacceptable.

    Player: "You've taken away all my choices for building a character the way I want to. Please fix."

    Turbine: "But the New Thing is Awesome! It allows you more freedom to build your character the way WE want you to!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    How about you get free metas on SLAs, and they have lower base costs than the spell to begin with?
    Now that would make sense if it were some super powered ability that was much stronger than any of your normal spells.

    Can you imagine if the current sla's for savants had cooldowns like this? Imagine a 2 minute cooldown to cast acid blast with free metamagics. Doesn't sound very interesting to me. The current sla's have cooldowns that are longer than the ones for their spell counterparts, for some balance. They don't have a 2000% longer cooldown however. Closer to 200% i'm guessing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Spend 9 points on the first 2 racial core abilities and maxing out the first Action surge option and you will have a +20% damage action boost that gives you +4 STR. You could spend another 6 points to increase your glancing blow chance by another 6% if you spent points in the relevant Fighting Style enhancement.
    Wow, so they've reduced Human Adaptability to clickies that last 20sec? So I used to have a stat that was permanently higher. Now I have a stat that is only higher for 20sec and only when I remember to click it - assuming that I haven't used all the charges?! :{

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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Wow, so they've reduced Human Adaptability to clickies that last 20sec? So I used to have a stat that was permanently higher. Now I have a stat that is only higher for 20sec and only when I remember to click it - assuming that I haven't used all the charges?! :{
    You still get Human Adaptability (+1 any stat) and Greater (+1 any other stat). Those two remain permanent. The devs also added some short term boosts which would be similar to human versatility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Wow, so they've reduced Human Adaptability to clickies that last 20sec? So I used to have a stat that was permanently higher. Now I have a stat that is only higher for 20sec and only when I remember to click it - assuming that I haven't used all the charges?! :{
    No, the beefed up the action boost clickies to also have another stat boost. So you still get your +2 but when using the action boosts you get more for the duration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tralfaz81 View Post
    Not exactly sure how that's a 'nope' when everything you said basically agrees with what I was saying - outside of pointing out that it eats up considerably more points in that tree now to use it than it did - they shouldn't be linked to the core ability and should work independently - which was my point.
    Before it cost you 6 AP to get Human Adaptability and Greater Human Adaptability. Now it costs you 6 AP and you get 2 Action Boosts "for free" if you want to look on it like that. Being core abilities isn't an issue. Allowing you to take any core ability independently of any other core ability would be an improvement, but I can't see how it's considerably more points if it's the exact same number of points.

    Quote Originally Posted by tralfaz81 View Post
    Yes I realize that...because that was one of my complaints, having to open up other trees to get my basic enhancements - you realize you can read a whole post before making up your mind and criticizing, right?
    I read your whole post a couple of times, logged onto Lamannia and created a test barbarian to see if I could replicate the problems you were having to see if I could offer anything constructive. I'm not saying that your damage numbers are down, but from an enhancement point of view, I'm not seeing a massive issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by tralfaz81 View Post
    It's on human too, that was my over sight - but it is less than it was before.
    Where are you seeing Improved Power Attack on the Human tree?

    Quote Originally Posted by tralfaz81 View Post
    I'm getting that from every time I hit rage, it turned my power attack off. The first few times I thought I just moved too quickly and it didn't take (you have to sit still for like 2 seconds other wise it interrupts it). Even once the border was blue, as soon as I raged, it turned it off - and won't let me activate it while raged.
    Bug report it. I can turn standard Power Attack off and on no problem, but it won't let me turn it on from the Barbarian Power Attack icon while raged. They both do the same thing and you'll get the same benefit regardless of which option you use, so it's a bug in the Barbarian Power Attack option.

    Quote Originally Posted by tralfaz81 View Post
    And as I've mentioned, I've played with and reset the enhancements 3 different times. The last one was a slight improvement - I managed to get my con back where it was supposed to be, but not my base str since its not offered in the barb tree and I could only get a single point from my racial tree. Even trying to layer on extra damage from various enhancements, I was still hitting at an alarmingly lower rate than my original toon I transferred to the testing server.
    A human pure barbarian only gets 1 STR enhancement in the current system. You can get 5 CON from the new enhancements or 7 if you max it out in all 3 barbarian prestiges.

    Quote Originally Posted by tralfaz81 View Post
    And which one of the 17 enhancements that directly connect to the damage I deal I picked should I be reporting? Nearly half of the enhancements I picked add to my over all DPS and there's no way to tell which one, or which many, are not doing what they're supposed to - but I suspect it just doesn't add up to the damage I was doing before.
    You would need to test them individually where possible and incrementally where that's not possible. If you don't see an increase in damage or an added damage type then it's worth bug reporting.

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    seriuzly...

    it is still in alpha ^^ so do not be too much d00oo00m !

    i dled lammania too, cause i was curious...

    i found some good, some bad, some meh meh ish or just meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh

    i gave some suggestions...

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