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  1. #181
    Community Member TekkenDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    [*]paladins no longer have a devotion line or positive spell power booster
    lel, i am videya gam maker. I am perfect idea guy. Good ideas yes, lel.

  2. #182
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Your math in much of this thread is crazy off
    I screwed up in a post and got corrected and openly admitted my mistakes yes. of course you're going to characterize that as "much of this thread" 99% of this thread contains no math at all so perhaps your observational skills are little off?

    Your 3rd life well geared so it only needs a meh starting CON of 14 example has exactly 1 point more CHA or 0.25 more to hit and damage than I suggested is probably the best trade off (14)... Yet you're disagreeing with me... Awesome. Cherry picking a 3rd life THF. so you can say 6 damage instead of 4 Sorry man your argument is more than a little disingenuous just like your characterizations.

    It doesn't help that we've had lots of arguments and you seem more interested in finding something to needle me about than having an actual point (14 CHA versus your 15 come on man ).

    Quote Originally Posted by CoasterHops View Post
    Maybe you should stop throwing out a flawed argument on this one, you are saying the only way to make this work is to dump Charisma etc.
    No I said that's the best value and most bang for the build point, and holds true up to 14 CHA (one for one point buy so 16 CHA on a Drow) even EllisDee37 pretty much agrees because when he a adds a 3rd life TR grind that gets +4 build points he puts CHA at 15.

    I have run Pali's with everything from DM IV to no DM at all and everything in between. 20 CHA (16 and a +4 tome) got you 8 extra damage. Now you need a 16 CHA modifier (42 CHA) to get 8 extra damage... does it come with to hit and tactical DC improvements? Sure, is that still a nerf for TWF and S&B Pali's and any Pali that DOESN'T have room for tactical feats (i.e almost every one ever rolled)? Yep.

    If we're going to cherry pick some examples a DM IV Pali TWF losses 4 damage to the main hand and 4 times (off hand proc rate) to the off hand attack. Probably has no feats for tacticals, and oh yeah needs DEX for TWF feats, so maybe doesn't even get the new DM up to +4 to hit and damage. On the bright side they can reincarnate into something not Paladin thus buffing their DPS by proxy
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 07-10-2013 at 08:55 PM.

  3. #183
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    I TR'd my main into a KOTC human paladin for the past lives. I had never played a paladin before and she is a 36 point build.

    1st life starting stats were 18 str, 16 con, 11 wis, 14 cha. she had all +3 tomes at the time. she ended up with 28 cha with +6 item, enhancements that I wouldn't spend more than 4 AP for and all level ups into str. I might have evened out a stat with one of my level ups or human adaptability, but cant remember.

    next 2 lives I reduced my str to boost cha to 16 and ended up with 30 cha. getting 30 cha is not hard to get for a paladin with not much effort. I didn't sacrifice dps or hit points and a paladin only needs 14 wis to have access to level 4 spells. I did also wear a wis item up to +6 when ML allowed it. a paladin doesn't have a big sp pool if you don't invest in it and items help to get a little more since you would spend at least half buffing yourself and maybe other party members and using the minute long buffs a lot. there is no enormous investment or sacrifice to make when building a good dps paladin.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I screwed up in a post and got corrected and openly admitted my mistakes yes. of course you're going to characterize that as "much of this thread" 99% of this thread contains no math at all so perhaps your observational skills are little off?

    Your 3rd life well geared so it only needs a meh starting CON of 14 example has exactly 1 point more CHA or 0.25 more to hit and damage than I suggested is probably the best trade off (14)... Yet you're disagreeing with me... Awesome. Cherry picking a 3rd life THF. so you can say 6 damage instead of 4 Sorry man your argument is more than a little disingenuous just like your characterizations.

    It doesn't help that we've had lots of arguments and you seem more interested in finding something to needle me about than having an actual point (14 CHA versus your 15 come on man ).



    No I said that's the best value and most bang for the build point, and holds true up to 14 CHA (one for one point buy so 16 CHA on a Drow) even EllisDee37 pretty much agrees because when he a adds a 3rd life TR grind that gets +4 build points he puts CHA at 15.

    I have run Pali's with everything from DM IV to no DM at all and everything in between. 20 CHA (16 and a +4 tome) got you 8 extra damage. Now you need a 16 CHA modifier (42 CHA) to get 8 extra damage... does it come with to hit and tactical DC improvements? Sure, is that still a nerf for TWF and S&B Pali's and any Pali that DOESN'T have room for tactical feats (i.e almost every one ever rolled)? Yep.

    If we're going to cherry pick some examples a DM IV Pali TWF losses 4 damage to the main hand and 4 times (off hand proc rate) to the off hand attack. Probably has no feats for tacticals, and oh yeah needs DEX for TWF feats, so maybe doesn't even get the new DM up to +4 to hit and damage. On the bright side they can reincarnate into something not Paladin thus buffing their DPS by proxy
    To me it looks like you were comparing apples to oranges when trying to claim that this is a nerf, remembering that 20 BASE charisma is the requirement on Live to net DM IV.
    So Lets take 20 base Charisma. Start 16, +4 tome, 2 ship, 11 items, 2 from enhancements, 2 from Capstone (KoTC), 1 from Human seeing as you want it to be pure (cause you don't want to account for tactics) and Human is the natural choice for this = 38 = +14 to str = +7 to hit, damage and tactics (+ further buffs eg. 3 from Human tree when action boosted, yugo pots, EDs, lets not forget about those) hitting anywhere from 38+ Charisma on an endgame Paladin build is easy enough and I dare say 42 is definately plausible if you want to start with a 20 Base Charisma. Not even counting a +5 tome here.....

    So Lets say 38 is easy enough at end game, so +7 to hit, damage and tactics with an instantaneous cast and twice the duration of Live, so this falls in the nerf category how?? Remember hitting 42 is doable in todays end game too.
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  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post

    Paladin Divine Might now adds Charisma Modifier to Strength....
    I use DMIII (+6dmg) with 30 unbuff cha on live.(the requirement of 20 base cha and 4 more AP to get 2dmg is not a good deal.)

    Compare to simply 6 dmg , new DM will give me 10str =5tohit + 5 dmg+ 5tactic DC,plus double duration and faster casting motion(it stills break your swing tho),pretty a buff to me .
    Last edited by easterwhale; 07-11-2013 at 01:40 AM.

  6. #186
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by easterwhale View Post
    I use DMIII (+6dmg) with 30 unbuff cha on live.(the requirement of 18 base cha and 4 more AP to get 2dmg is not a good deal.)

    Compare to simply 6 dmg , new DM will give me 10str =5tohit + 5 dmg+ 5tactic DC,plus double duration and faster casting motion(it stills break your swing tho),pretty a buff to me .
    Honestly with the tactic part no matter what the damage math is it would be a buff, tripped/stunned mobs don't hit back.

  7. #187
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoasterHops View Post
    To me it looks like you were comparing apples to oranges when trying to claim that this is a nerf, remembering that 20 BASE charisma is the requirement on Live to net DM IV.
    So Lets take 20 base Charisma. Start 16, +4 tome, 2 ship, 11 items, 2 from enhancements, 2 from Capstone (KoTC), 1 from Human seeing as you want it to be pure (cause you don't want to account for tactics) and Human is the natural choice for this = 38 = +14 to str = +7 to hit, damage and tactics (+ further buffs eg. 3 from Human tree when action boosted, yugo pots, EDs, lets not forget about those) hitting anywhere from 38+ Charisma on an endgame Paladin build is easy enough and I dare say 42 is definately plausible if you want to start with a 20 Base Charisma. Not even counting a +5 tome here.....

    So Lets say 38 is easy enough at end game, so +7 to hit, damage and tactics with an instantaneous cast and twice the duration of Live, so this falls in the nerf category how?? Remember hitting 42 is doable in todays end game too.
    This is a buff for THF Paladins for all intents and purposes, but a slight nerf to TWF Paladins, at least damage-wise.

    Example:
    I have a TWF multiclass Paladin who has DM 3. Currently I get +6 to the main hand and +4.8 to the off hand (80% of 6 = 4.8) for a total = +10.8.

    With the new system, even figuring I can get the same +6 (so 34 Chr which is easy enough), I get +6 for my main hand but Str is only half for my off hand, so +2.4 (80 of 3 = 2.4) = 8.4, a loss of 2.4 damage.

    However, the longer duration and addition of some extra tactics DCs compensate for it somewhat (not really because I don't use DC based tactics).

    But overall, it is a nerf to TWF Paladins, damage-wise.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    The lack of uproar over nerfs that appear to be going live in the pass tells me that people are distracted or not realizing the full extent of them, or not reading lam forums.

    It strikes me that we need a compilation of all the nerfs in the enhancement pass so people wont be so blind sided by them I'm afraid that a lot of people tune out threads about the pass because of the conflicting opinions and arguing. Well most nerfs are objectively measurable. So without any ranting or raving here are the ones I have seen just looking over my own "areas of interest". Other people are more tuned in to other classes and playstyles, please respond and add the nerfs you see. Please make as sure as possible that they are an objective nerf and not a lateral change. I'm going to list them with minimal commentary and update this list as needed. Please don't argue about what balanced or unbalanced. If you think something is not a nerf say so, but please refrain from getting into arguments and derailing the thread.
    Thanks for the overview, it helps a lot to get a good view on these points, maybe even gets the devs to get a clearer view on these nerfs (even if some of those are WAI up to now) and lets hope reconsider/rework some of it.

    My guess is that many people haven't ever realized what the enhancement pass is, nor bothered reading through all of the formus about the changes.

    In general, I can understand the changes (new interface was certainly needed and an overhaul of the enhancements as such is welcome too). That some things are getting a different focus is to be expected too, although one would like to get a good reasoning from Turbine about the basis for some of those.

    I do think that there are some nice and sensible concepts in them, such as the change from 6-12-18 (and 2) for levels that give good amounts of benefit towards the multiples of 5, for example. But its a pretty big change, and one wonders how it can be taken towards more sensible/beneficial epic levels (as opposed to the buy to use EDs) in the future. But alas, we do not know that.
    But all of these changes make for pretty big differences to how the characters are built, what they can do really well, and what not in the game, so I hope Turbine tread carefully with them and does rework the least popular things (like some of the trees, Sorcerers getting incredibly little spell power) as well as put a bit of extra effort in all the classes that are in need of some love.

    - let me add (edit): I really do not like having all the short buff buttons with cooldowns - not really my kind of play style to watch/press all of those to be effective
    Last edited by Nascoe; 07-11-2013 at 07:32 AM.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddo.rsmo.pt View Post
    This game used to be different because you could make interesting builds. That's one big part of the game, for me at least.

    Now, they are practically saying: Dwarves shouldnt cast spells, go make a fighter. Or: Paladins using two-weapons?? That's a no-no, go make a sword-and-board.

    Excitement rating -> Blargh.

    Carry on.
    Hard to tell really, I think there certainly are new interesting things. Dwarves for example do get some nicely added flavour to them. After all its Turbine's game, so its up to them do make the rules (players can vote with their feet off course). But it would be really helpfull if they had started communicating some of these things up front - if they tell us their view of what a class / race should be good at and why.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I don't think it shows that people don't care about optimizing their build if they don't choose one of the 6 EE-approved cookiecutter builds. I think it just shows that they enjoy a different playstyle, and I think its an improvement to the game if those different (legitimate) playstyles are brought up to par with the "STR-and-saves" paradigm builds currently owning endgame. The difference, I think, is between "viability" and "optimization"...a build can be viable, in that it can complete all the content, it just might not be optimized for the current game.

    But the game's always going to be changing, so we can only ask that our favorite builds remain viable, not demand that they always remain optimized, or else the game will only become ever more focused around a single playstyle until everyone is forced to adopt it.
    Good point. I think the enhancement pass does open up new interesting builds while making others less optimized. Although I also get the impression that it will mean making characters a tad less powerfull in general (which is ok, better that then upping saves again etc. to make content challenging), which might be unpopular but its a pretty reasonable way to counter power creep.

  11. #191
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    Considering how brain-dead easy the game has become, I have a hard time caring that such and such class is losing 5% of something or whatever. Especially since I imagine some incredibly powerful multiclass builds will be appearing.
    The brokenly OP multiclass combinations available with these changes are worse for the game than any of the nerfs.

  12. #192
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The brokenly OP multiclass combinations available with these changes are worse for the game than any of the nerfs.
    I don't think many people are able to see how brokenly OP certain combinations will be until they see them in action completely destroying everything. In the mean time, many people will be simply happy that they think the few top builds currently will get nerfed...without realizing they're not really changing, just other things are getting MUCH, MUCH better.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The brokenly OP multiclass combinations available with these changes are worse for the game than any of the nerfs.
    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    I don't think many people are able to see how brokenly OP certain combinations will be until they see them in action completely destroying everything. In the mean time, many people will be simply happy that they think the few top builds currently will get nerfed...without realizing they're not really changing, just other things are getting MUCH, MUCH better.
    For people like you two who can level up a new character fairly quickly and already have high level toons with lots of resources to share with new toons, taking advantage of new builds presents an exciting opportunity I'm sure. But for those who only have 1 high level toon (no matter how many lower) that they have spent a long time creating and gearing and don't have a lot of resources to respec gear, the fact that they have to redo their current character(s) or start a completely new character is not as nice. I wish all the power players on the forums could try to put themselves in those players' shoes....

  14. #194
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    For people like you two who can level up a new character fairly quickly and already have high level toons with lots of resources to share with new toons, taking advantage of new builds presents an exciting opportunity I'm sure. But for those who only have 1 high level toon (no matter how many lower) that they have spent a long time creating and gearing and don't have a lot of resources to respec gear, the fact that they have to redo their current character(s) or start a completely new character is not as nice. I wish all the power players on the forums could try to put themselves in those players' shoes....
    My perspective with the post you quoted isn't against the normal player with only one or two high-level characters - it's towards the players who, regardless of skill, express too much disdain for the "FoTM" builds (a term I hate, btw) and rejoice every time they're getting nerfed...in those cases, I find it hilarious when people praise a "FoTM" build getting knocked down a peg, when there are plenty of incredibly obvious builds (at least to me, I'm not sure why I'm not seeing others notice them more) that are at least as good as those "FoTM" builds in their prime...some, such as the ninja spy eSoS fighter or a few interesting others that I know are being kept quiet by some, just will blow the current builds out of the water...and the same people who play those "FoTM" builds will be able to jump onto these new super-powered builds...and probably will quite quickly.

    Personally, though I'm not playing now, when I play DDO I play what I enjoy more than what's the current best end-game builds...as is evidenced by my near-pure paladin (eww, paladin) using cormyrian redscale (eww, not epic blackscale) being my favorite melee. >_> That's why some things about the enhancement pass have me especially upset, such as all that's been done against fleshy DI sorcs, as I recently TRed my warforged Shiradi into a fleshy DI just to be more fun.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  15. #195
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    I don't think many people are able to see how brokenly OP certain combinations will be until they see them in action completely destroying everything. In the mean time, many people will be simply happy that they think the few top builds currently will get nerfed...without realizing they're not really changing, just other things are getting MUCH, MUCH better.
    There are three types of people who don't have an issue with the potential broken combos:

    1. People who don't understand the game mechanics well enough to see the broken combos. This is especially true of those who rarely enter EE.

    2. Munchkins who just don't care because it's MOAR POWER!!!!! These will also be the first ones crying at the inevitable nerfs.

    3. Petty people who just want to see the current FoTM builds crushed, yet don't understand that new FoTM builds will appear to take their place.

  16. #196
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    For people like you two who can level up a new character fairly quickly and already have high level toons with lots of resources to share with new toons, taking advantage of new builds presents an exciting opportunity I'm sure. But for those who only have 1 high level toon (no matter how many lower) that they have spent a long time creating and gearing and don't have a lot of resources to respec gear, the fact that they have to redo their current character(s) or start a completely new character is not as nice. I wish all the power players on the forums could try to put themselves in those players' shoes....
    if you only have 1 high level toon what the heck have you been doing since 2006?

    What exactly was your point anyway? I'm not saying it to be snarky but all i saw was a jab at power-gamers.

  17. #197
    Community Member Nirvana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post


    1. Barbarian splashes no longer get sprint boost at first level


    Awwwww... This sucks... it's fun to have 1 splash of Barb during TRs... why... why...
    . .° . . .° .°°° . °°° . ° . . .°
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    .
    ° . ° ° . .° . .°°° . . . ° .°
    ° . . ° . °°° .° . . ° . . .°

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    if you only have 1 high level toon what the heck have you been doing since 2006?

    What exactly was your point anyway? I'm not saying it to be snarky but all i saw was a jab at power-gamers.
    Lol, I wasn't talking about me. I try to see situations from other peoples' POV. Although I am a casual player and not remotely "power" or "elite" or whatever.

    And that wasn't a "jab" (that's why I said "power player" rather than powergamer) - I don't know what else to call people who can TR quickly and/or grind for equipment, elite raid, etc. If you have a preferable term I'm all for it.

    My point was that you and others "poo-poo" many of the negatives of the Enhancement Pass as trivial and talk about creating new characters as though its easy.

    Although I do admit that Wrunt's explanation made me see you were focused more on how bad the new combos were than on shrugging off the other negatives of the EP.

  19. #199
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    My point was that you and others "poo-poo" many of the negatives of the Enhancement Pass as trivial and talk about creating new characters as though its easy.
    .
    Um no, I don't. please have a clue before throwing around baseless accusations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Um no, I don't. please have a clue before throwing around baseless accusations.
    I not only have a clue but my reading comprehension is usually very good. I also would say its an observation rather than an "accusation" (which usually applies to some form of wrongdoing rather than an attitude). However I apparently will have to take an insult as your best response. O.o

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