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  1. #161
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobius View Post
    Anyone remember the change to crit rage? oh its gonna kill Barbs ... oh wait people still play barbs
    What? on Korthos? Barbs are nearly Bard like in the DDO I play. Their self sufficiency is "expert only" and even then has massive drawbacks. They are not very prevalent already... guess what... they are losing X2 criticals... already scares IMO this makes them not worth considering ever rolling.

  2. #162
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobius View Post
    It was kinda more at the people saying how broken it was while it was still in alpha and many changes were still comming.
    That's because past history has taught what goes on lam goes on live and claims of beta/alpha are untrue. 95% of what goes on lam never seems to get changed even when it breaks the quest.

  3. #163
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    What? on Korthos? Barbs are nearly Bard like in the DDO I play. Their self sufficiency is "expert only" and even then has massive drawbacks. They are not very prevalent already... guess what... they are losing X2 criticals... already scares IMO this makes them not worth considering ever rolling.
    Wait . . . barbs are losing X2 criticals? i thought is was x1?

    Both are ridiculous . . . a barb needs to do significantly more damage than anything else when fully-hulked-out to rationalize their existence. They need to do enough damage for it to be worth swapping to my healer to keep them alive.

  4. #164
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Added:

    Paladin Divine Might now adds Charisma Modifier to Strength. Objectively a nerf. 2 points investment in charisma = 1 strength point. You need 4 charisma points to get 2 strength for +1 to hit and damage. Divine Might IV at top tier used to require 20 charisma to give 8 extra damage (EDITand to hit bonus based on CHA EDIT scratch this out was thinking of smites), to equal that 8 damage you need +32 charisma for a 16 modifier to get +16 to strength. Animation has been speed up, and Duration is up to double, but does not offset the loss in damage. In a best case scenario a 2 build point cost charisma point is strictly better invested in a 3 point cost strength increase where possible; as you would need 4 build points to get 2 CHA just to equal 1, 3 point strength increase.

    To get DMIII (used to be a 18 CHA requirement) equivalent damage (6 extra damage) you would need 48 points of CHA (damn I must be wrong but I'm looking at it on wiki and it says Charisma modifier to strength so unless they changed this madness already Divine Might is terrible)

    Best case scenario: you dump CHA, nom a +4 tome and wear +8 item and +2 exceptional (that's a generous gear investment on a Pali) 8 + 4 + 8 +2 = 22 charisma, that's a +6 to strength or +3 damage. OR you invest minimal (only 1 for 1 points) build points on a Pali build like a Drow and get a little more, 4 more CHA = 2 more strength = +1 damage.
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 07-10-2013 at 08:18 PM. Reason: edit fixed mistakes pointed out in thread

  5. #165
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Added:

    Paladin Divine Might now adds Charisma Modifier to Strength. Objectively a nerf. 2 points investment in charisma = 1 strength point. You need 4 charisma points to get 2 strength for +1 to hit and damage. Divine Might IV at top tier used to require 20 charisma to give 8 extra damage (and to hit bonus based on CHA), to equal that 8 damage you need +32 charisma modifier to get +16 to strength or 64 charisma, a 44 point increase. Animation has been speed up, and Duration is up to double, but does not offset the loss in damage. In a best case scenario a 2 build point cost charisma point is strictly better invested in a 3 point cost strength increase where possible; as you would need 4 build points to get 2 CHA just to equal 1, 3 point strength increase.

    To get DMIII (used to be a 18 CHA requirement) equivalent damage (6 extra damage) you would need 48 points of CHA (damn I must be wrong but I'm looking at it on wiki and it says Charisma modifier to strength so unless they changed this madness already Divine Might is terrible)

    Best case scenario: you dump CHA, nom a +4 tome and wear +8 item and +2 exceptional (that's a generous gear investment on a Pali) 8 + 4 + 8 +2 = 22 charisma, that's a +6 to strength or +3 damage. OR you invest minimal (only 1 for 1 points) build points on a Pali build like a Drow and get a little more, 4 more CHA = 2 more strength = +1 damage.
    I'm sorry, this isn't a nerf. This is a buff.

    STR gives to-hit (well . . . that don't mean much anymore) and tactics DCs. This is a stronger ability.

    Not to mention the casting time is better and has a longer duration.

    This change is a buff.

  6. #166
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Wait . . . barbs are losing X2 criticals? i thought is was x1?

    Both are ridiculous . . . a barb needs to do significantly more damage than anything else when fully-hulked-out to rationalize their existence. They need to do enough damage for it to be worth swapping to my healer to keep them alive.
    You used to get stacking X3 crits from frenzy II, frenzy III and on death frenzy, I have checked twice but I only see X1 at tier 5 of the new frenzied barb PrE. if I missed one I will be happy to correct it. Note I am INGORING "double frenzy" as I'm not sure if it works anymore, otherwise I might have "losses X3 criticals" from wiki:

    Code:
    Notes:
    
        This can be a confusing enhancement line as each tier does similar, but slightly different things. Here is a breakdown of what you can expect when wielding a greataxe with the improved critical: slashing feat and using these enhancements:
            With tier1, Raged and Frenzied: 19-20 x3 criticals, +2d6 bonus dice from frenzy, 1d3 self damage.
            With tier2, Raged and Frenzied: 19-20 x4 criticals, +2d6 bonus dice from frenzy, 1d3 self damage.
            With tier3, Raged and Double Frenzied: 19-20 x6 criticals, +6d6 bonus dice from double frenzy, 2d3 self damage.
                Note the huge increase at tier 3, this is because tier 3 enhances both your rage and gives you an additional stacking frenzy clicky..
    .
    .
    .
    .
    
    . extra periods are here to fix the still **** forum
    If that's out of date (it is a Wiki after all) then I will amend. I don't have a Barb. I literally went to roll one when I found out about Sovereign Healing pots and figured they might suck less to get self sufficient, but then I looked at the EP frenzy PrE... no thanks.
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 07-08-2013 at 04:12 PM.

  7. #167
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I'm sorry, this isn't a nerf. This is a buff.

    STR gives to-hit (well . . . that don't mean much anymore) and tactics DCs. This is a stronger ability.

    Not to mention the casting time is better and has a longer duration.

    This change is a buff.
    I mentioned those it's still a nerf, 8 damage on a vanilla DPS class down to a best case of a Drow getting half the damage from it it used to. Any investment in Charisma past 1 for 1 point buy is a net loss of strength, except in extremely narrow situations where you have 2 points left, you already have STR maxed or up to a 3 point buy and one point of CHA will round you up into an even CHA score.

    The only way this isn't a nerf is for CHA dump stat Pali's who couldn't get Divine Might I before, now with a heavy tome and gearing investment they can get +3 to STR as in my example.

    Lets put it this way:
    2 STR = +1 to hit and damage
    4 Charisma = +1 to hit and damage

    So there is NO circumstance except the previously noted fringe case, where putting points into CHA is a better investment than putting those points into STR.

    CHA 1 for 1 point buy: it costs 2 build points for +1
    STR 1 for 1 point buy: it costs 1 build points for +1
    CHA 2 for 1 point buy: it costs 4 build points for +1
    STR 2 for 1 point buy: it costs 2 build points for +1
    CHA 3 for 1 point buy: it costs 6 build points for +1
    STR 3 for 1 point buy: it costs 3 build points for +1

    Not only is it a nerf, it's a huge newb trap.

    BTW I totally appreciate the humor intended in your post Paladins with tacticals... hah!... this guy LOL...
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 07-08-2013 at 04:46 PM.

  8. #168
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    BTW I totally appreciate the humor intended in your post Paladins with tacticals... hah!... this guy LOL...
    Think splash builds. Not to hard to get a 30 CHR on a kensai for +10 saves and now STR.

    I think anything more than 2 levels of a paladin is a waste anyway.

  9. #169
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Couldn't get past that sentence. You're using random gen loot to discuss dodge, IMO you're not familiar with how dodge used to work or what gear was used to obtain high levels. It's easier to dismiss other people efforts and investment in their gear when you haven't got experience from their perspective.
    4% dodge named items don't appear before epic levels (with the exception of Icy Raiment). Thus, the best you usually can do on Heroic is 6%. every named item that gives 3% wil give 6%. So, you will stay at worst... on the same level with two free slots.

    Epic-wise, you will find a dodge 10% item and save yourself from equiping 4 items to get the same dodge.

    The random gen number is because the named item values varies wildly, and not al of them are easy to determine if you "have" them or not (most of them are event items or raid loot). Eg, Chattering Ring will be an awesome twink item, for having Dodge 6% at level 9. But we all know how hard is to find this thing.

    My point stands. The best you can have now is 10% from slotting 4 items. The best you will be able to have will be 10% from slotting one single item.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
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  10. #170
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Added:

    Paladin Divine Might now adds Charisma Modifier to Strength. Objectively a nerf. 2 points investment in charisma = 1 strength point. You need 4 charisma points to get 2 strength for +1 to hit and damage. Divine Might IV at top tier used to require 20 charisma to give 8 extra damage (and to hit bonus based on CHA), to equal that 8 damage you need +32 charisma modifier to get +16 to strength or 64 charisma, a 44 point increase. Animation has been speed up, and Duration is up to double, but does not offset the loss in damage. In a best case scenario a 2 build point cost charisma point is strictly better invested in a 3 point cost strength increase where possible; as you would need 4 build points to get 2 CHA just to equal 1, 3 point strength increase.

    To get DMIII (used to be a 18 CHA requirement) equivalent damage (6 extra damage) you would need 48 points of CHA (damn I must be wrong but I'm looking at it on wiki and it says Charisma modifier to strength so unless they changed this madness already Divine Might is terrible)

    Best case scenario: you dump CHA, nom a +4 tome and wear +8 item and +2 exceptional (that's a generous gear investment on a Pali) 8 + 4 + 8 +2 = 22 charisma, that's a +6 to strength or +3 damage. OR you invest minimal (only 1 for 1 points) build points on a Pali build like a Drow and get a little more, 4 more CHA = 2 more strength = +1 damage.
    I must of misread it on lam it said CHA mod to damage not adding CHA mod to str. I could only afford the +6 to damage divine might on live on lam if it is CHA mod to damage I get +8, +9 if i put on a +8 cha item or get a +3 exceptional.

    plus the duration is much increased and the casting time, its instantaneous now, so much better. I will be back once I get some time to get back on LAM to check it out. Don't forget more CHA also increases a paladins saves which are pretty important.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    First, this thread isn't about particular characters being nerfed. It's about values being decreased - i.e. an enhancement used to give +2 and now gives +1. That is a net loss (nerf) no matter what character it is applied to.

    How is the Dodge proposal a nerf?

    - Increasing stats are always also subject to increasing minimum levels (with minor exceptions).
    - Currently I can take a 1% Dodge item and a 2% Dodge item and get 3% Dodge.
    - A native 3% Dodge item is going to have a higher minimum level than a 1% Dodge item or a 2% Dodge item.
    - Yes I know they are doubling Dodge values. If they did only that, a 2% Dodge item and a 4% Dodge item will still be lower minimum level than a 6% Dodge item.
    - So if the only way to get 6% Dodge is the one item, I will not be able to have a 6% Dodge item on the same level character as I could have had a 2% Dodge item and a 4% Dodge item.
    Your reasoning here makes no sense.

    If you were to be able to equip a 1% dodge and a 2% dodge item at level 9 (just for example), that would net you 3% dodge and take 2 item slots. In lam currently you can equip a 4% dodge item at the same level and use 1 item slot. That is a buff any way you look at it.

    The only way this is a negative is if you were wearing 1%, 2%, 3% & 4% dodge items currently for a net total of 10% dodge and now you only get 8% from the one item. In these siituations, find a 10% item and free up a ton of gear slots.


    And in response to the rest of this thread. I am not a big fan of all the changes, especially sorcerers. But I look at this as an opportunity to try and test many new builds. Maybe arty/sorc combos will be the new flavor of the month. Who knows, but I was sick of seeing all the cookie cutters out there .

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Added:

    Paladin Divine Might now adds Charisma Modifier to Strength. Objectively a nerf. 2 points investment in charisma = 1 strength point. You need 4 charisma points to get 2 strength for +1 to hit and damage. Divine Might IV at top tier used to require 20 charisma to give 8 extra damage (and to hit bonus based on CHA), to equal that 8 damage you need +32 charisma modifier to get +16 to strength or 64 charisma, a 44 point increase. Animation has been speed up, and Duration is up to double, but does not offset the loss in damage. In a best case scenario a 2 build point cost charisma point is strictly better invested in a 3 point cost strength increase where possible; as you would need 4 build points to get 2 CHA just to equal 1, 3 point strength increase.
    Something must be wrong in your calculation.

    You say 64 Charisma gives only 16 strenght?

    Divine Might (3 ranks)(2 AP): You gain your charisma modifier to strength as a sacred bonus for 30/60/120 seconds

    So Charisma modifier = + to Strenght

    If i have 64 Charisma i have a Charisma mod of 27. that means +27 Strenght for 120 seconds

    27 Strenght is + 13 to hit and damage for 2WF or sword and board.

    What you also did not mention is the fact that strenght bonus gives +1,5 damage to 2 Handed fighting paladins.
    ....
    As an example
    A 2 Handed fighting Paladin with just 30 Charisma (Charisma mod of +10) would gain +10 Strenght which already gives him +5 to hit and +7,5 damage.
    And 30 Charisma is nothing really
    Last edited by Dunklerlindwurm; 07-09-2013 at 09:53 AM.
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  13. #173
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunklerlindwurm View Post
    Something must be wrong in your calculation.

    You say 64 Charisma gives only 16 strenght?

    Divine Might (3 ranks)(2 AP): You gain your charisma modifier to strength as a sacred bonus for 30/60/120 seconds

    So Charisma modifier = + to Strenght
    Good catch, I got turned around and juxtaposed STR mod with STR somehow and then forgot that the first 10 get you to zero mod. It's 16 CHA modifier needed to get 16 strength or 42 CHA.

    42 CHA = +8 to hit and damage

    EDIT: math is hard
    EDIT2 D&D is hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Dunklerlindwurm View Post
    A 2 Handed fighting Paladin with just 30 Charisma (Charisma mod of +10) would gain +10 Strenght which already gives him +5 to hit and +7,5 damage.
    And 30 Charisma is nothing really
    "just 30 charisma"? That's a lot. far more than I would ever spec into a Pali build. It's not like you need to make a spell casting DC I know some people love their lay on hands but the build cost of that is enormous. and most likely gimping your strength instead of buffing it. Especially given the massive cost of raising CHA relative to the Strength mod you get from it.

    I did another break down in the Paladin lamania thead, to take CHA from a dump stat of 8 up to a +4 CHA modifier (18 CHA) costs 16 build points 4 CHA mod = 4 STR or +2 to hit and damage:

    +2 to hit and damage at a cost of 16 build points? No thank you sir.
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 07-09-2013 at 10:34 PM.

  14. #174
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    "just 30 charisma"? That's a lot.
    THF paladins need STR, CON and CHA. Decent DEX is nice, but not necessary unless you are going TWF. INT is only necessary if you want Combat Expertise.

    So, any pally can have starting 14 CHA without much loss (STR/CON 16 instead of one maximized if 32-pts). 14 start, +3 tome, +11 item (+8 enhanc, +3 ins), +2 enhancements = 30 CHA.

    And you can raise it further. IIRC, on the enhancement pass you can add 4 cha from enhancements. Plus raising the tome to +3, +1 exceptional, +2 ship... That is, without any real investment on CHA. Raising STR or CON from 16 to 18 (+1 atk/dmg) requires 6 build points. You can use that to raise CHA to 14 (+2 atk/dmg, better saves/LoH, more turns, etc). 14 starting CHA is not bad for any paladin.
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  15. #175
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    Rogues are getting nice buffs so I'm happy.

    Considering how brain-dead easy the game has become, I have a hard time caring that such and such class is losing 5% of something or whatever. Especially since I imagine some incredibly powerful multiclass builds will be appearing.

  16. #176

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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    INT is only necessary if you want Combat Expertise.
    Well, you probably want the Heal skill now...

    So, any pally can have starting 14 CHA without much loss
    I generally target 15 base cha to aim for DM3 with a +3 tome. I see no reason to change this pattern under the new enhancements, though more and more it looks like 14 base with a store bought +4 tome is probably better even before the enhancement pass.

  17. #177
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    Rogues are getting nice buffs so I'm happy.
    I'm glad for you and other rogues.

    Considering how brain-dead easy the game has become, I have a hard time caring that such and such class is losing 5% of something or whatever. Especially since I imagine some incredibly powerful multiclass builds will be appearing.
    Hate to break it to you but Heroic levels have been getting harder and harder each update (and it hasn't been placed in the patch notes). The changes have been slight and if it wasn't for under geared/poor DPS alt's I have, I wouldn't of probably noticed. I don't know if it is because of a change to AI, DC's getting harder, or coding that wasn't working before is now suddenly working, I can't say. I have gone back with sufficiently geared/over geared toons to verify my initial surprise to confirm that changes are being made almost every patch.

    The changes to traps almost 2 years ago(?) was the start, the nerfing of WF and FoM (around the same time, I think), Displacement becoming self-only was the next (that I recall), the current enhancement pass is the next obvious change, while the Spot, Detect Secret Doors, and True Seeing is following close on the heels of it. So the game is getting harder, you (and many others) are getting a more challenging DDO.

    The game is brain-dead easy because you know the quest(s). I fully admit that I am beginning to suffer from the same things at the lower levels that I have now, basically, memorized.

    Not sure what "powerful" multi-class builds you (or others) are dreaming up but if they exist after the enhancement "pass" goes live and survives the honeymoon phase I will be ecstatic.

    To the original poster:
    I must agree that starting a Pally (32+ pt.) at 14 Chr (or 15; 12/13 for Dwarves) is basically a given but the math supports you if I am reading everything correctly and all the "facts" are correct. Which I assume you, and everyone else, is trying to do.

    The Dodge change is only a nerf is the sense that you lost a whole lot of time building up the perfect 1%, 2%, 3%, and 4% gear. To new players, it is a buff. To veterans, a whole lot of time now thrown away. I feel for 'ya.

  18. #178
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    THF paladins need STR, CON and CHA. Decent DEX is nice, but not necessary unless you are going TWF. INT is only necessary if you want Combat Expertise.

    So, any pally can have starting 14 CHA without much loss (STR/CON 16 instead of one maximized if 32-pts). 14 start, +3 tome, +11 item (+8 enhanc, +3 ins), +2 enhancements = 30 CHA.

    And you can raise it further. IIRC, on the enhancement pass you can add 4 cha from enhancements. Plus raising the tome to +3, +1 exceptional, +2 ship... That is, without any real investment on CHA. Raising STR or CON from 16 to 18 (+1 atk/dmg) requires 6 build points. You can use that to raise CHA to 14 (+2 atk/dmg, better saves/LoH, more turns, etc). 14 starting CHA is not bad for any paladin.
    14 CHA is +2 mod, which is +2 STR so that's only +1 to hit and damage.

    It's hard to explain just how bad a value this can be if you give up evena couple points to get over 14 CHA, let me try again:

    Droping CON from 18 to 16 to make CHA go from 8 to 14 takes away 23 hit points and gives +1 to hit and damage this is probably worth it if you ignore how this leaves everything else dumped (INT DEX and WIS are all 8 if you don't do this the relative build point value gets even worse).

    Droping STR from 18 to 16 to make CHA go from 8 to 14, takes away +1 to hit and damage to gain temporary +1 to hit and damage, this is clearly a poor trade.

    To get even ONE MORE +1 to hit and damage from CHA mod (before gearing and tomes) in addition to the +1 we've gained from taking dump stat CHA from 8 up to 14 , we need 18 CHA:

    That requires dropping 18 STR to 16 AND Con from 16 to 14 now you've Dumped every other stat, and traded +1 to hit and damage AND 46 hit points, to gain +2 to hit and damage.

    You have 8 Dex, 8 INT and 8 Wis. If you drop CON down to 13 to gain 2 build points you're in gimp territory. If you drop STR down from 16 to 15 for the same 2 build points you've Given up +1.5 to hit and damage and 46 hit points to gain 1 skill point +2 to hit and damage with a limited duration, a cool down and X number of uses.

    If you want another 2 points (say into INT for 12 INT for skill points to use for Heal spell power skill) you've traded +2 to hit and damage 46 hit points for +2... We've barely moved into realistic build territory and it's already a bad trade off.

    Getting a natural +2 to hit and damage out of Divine Might from character build choices requires: maxing CHA at 18 this gives a return of +2 to hit and damage at a build point cost of 16 build points

    +2 to hit and damage at a build point cost of 16 build points


    The only case that Divine might is a good value is a dumped CHA (starting with 8) and then gearing and +4 tome for 22 = +3 to hit and damage. Or +4 on a Drow. 1 for 1 point buy (14 CHA or 16 on a Drow) is a trade off that requires having 3 dump stats and no skill points.

    Anything else is a bad deal. So it's a new player trap. and a fairly nerfed ability. Remember there's no reason that Divine Might on live couldn't have a fast animation... The two are not connected to each other at all. There's also no reason they couldn't double the duration.

    The right thing to do is make Divine Might straight CHA mod to damage, so an 18 CHA would be +4 damage, with the new duration and casting speed. Gear and Tome this up for a nice 8 or 9 damage boost. Pali's need boosts not nerfs.

  19. #179

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    I'd rather it be cha mod to str as it is in the preview instead of your proposed cha mod to damage because I like that it opens up tactics for pallies. (eg: Stunning Blow.)

    Your math in much of this thread is crazy off, but if your base position is that pallies should start with base 18 con then yeah, I guess dump your cha and don't bother with divine might. I personally think it's crazy to go with base 18 con; I generally stick to 14 con except for legend builds which I might consider 16.

    Strength on any melee above a 28pt build is likely maxed (18 base +6 levelups) anyway, so there's not really any "better spent on str" to worry about.

    Here's my THF evasion pally's stat breakdown, just to clarify where I'm coming from:
    Code:
    Abilities          28pt    32pt    34pt    36pt
    Strength            16      18      18      18
    Dexterity           10       8      10      12
    Constitution        14      14      14      14
    Intelligence        10      10      10      10
    Wisdom               8       8       8       8
    Charisma            15      15      15      15
    I end up on live with 26 cha with virtually no effort at all; a single +6 augment is all the gear I bother with. (15 base +3 tome +2 ship +6 item) This unlocks DM3 on live for +6 damage.

    Since he's a THF that means his 26 cha (8 mod) will get him +8 str in the enhancement pass, which is +6 damage. I'd much rather have this +4 to hit, +6 damage, +4 tactical dcs as it would be on alpha than your proposed +0 to hit, +8 damage, +0 tactical dcs.

    Cha is also useful to pallies for saves and umd. (My pally pretty much only uses umd for GH and tele scrolls, but still.)

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    14 CHA is +2 mod, which is +2 STR so that's only +1 to hit and damage.

    It's hard to explain just how bad a value this can be if you give up evena couple points to get over 14 CHA, let me try again:

    Droping CON from 18 to 16 to make CHA go from 8 to 14 takes away 23 hit points and gives +1 to hit and damage this is probably worth it if you ignore how this leaves everything else dumped (INT DEX and WIS are all 8 if you don't do this the relative build point value gets even worse).

    Droping STR from 18 to 16 to make CHA go from 8 to 14, takes away +1 to hit and damage to gain temporary +1 to hit and damage, this is clearly a poor trade.

    To get even ONE MORE +1 to hit and damage from CHA mod (before gearing and tomes) in addition to the +1 we've gained from taking dump stat CHA from 8 up to 14 , we need 18 CHA:

    That requires dropping 18 STR to 16 AND Con from 16 to 14 now you've Dumped every other stat, and traded +1 to hit and damage AND 46 hit points, to gain +2 to hit and damage.

    You have 8 Dex, 8 INT and 8 Wis. If you drop CON down to 13 to gain 2 build points you're in gimp territory. If you drop STR down from 16 to 15 for the same 2 build points you've Given up +1.5 to hit and damage and 46 hit points to gain 1 skill point +2 to hit and damage with a limited duration, a cool down and X number of uses.

    If you want another 2 points (say into INT for 12 INT for skill points to use for Heal spell power skill) you've traded +2 to hit and damage 46 hit points for +2... We've barely moved into realistic build territory and it's already a bad trade off.

    Getting a natural +2 to hit and damage out of Divine Might from character build choices requires: maxing CHA at 18 this gives a return of +2 to hit and damage at a build point cost of 16 build points

    +2 to hit and damage at a build point cost of 16 build points


    The only case that Divine might is a good value is a dumped CHA (starting with 8) and then gearing and +4 tome for 22 = +3 to hit and damage. Or +4 on a Drow. 1 for 1 point buy (14 CHA or 16 on a Drow) is a trade off that requires having 3 dump stats and no skill points.

    Anything else is a bad deal. So it's a new player trap. and a fairly nerfed ability. Remember there's no reason that Divine Might on live couldn't have a fast animation... The two are not connected to each other at all. There's also no reason they couldn't double the duration.

    The right thing to do is make Divine Might straight CHA mod to damage, so an 18 CHA would be +4 damage, with the new duration and casting speed. Gear and Tome this up for a nice 8 or 9 damage boost. Pali's need boosts not nerfs.
    Maybe you should stop throwing out a flawed argument on this one, you are saying the only way to make this work is to dump Charisma etc.
    So you call this change a nerf in comparison to live yet you advocate dumping Charisma on Paladins.
    It's almost like you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, how do you envision Paladins on live at present getting Divine Might III or IV?
    You can't make an argument against spending points in Charisma when you require, get this a 20 Base Charisma on live to get Divine Might IV, so that requires either spending large at character creation and a +4 tome, or putting level ups into Charisma, some base points into Charisma and a +4 tome.
    Your whole argument is based around failed logic, maybe we all need to start looking harder at what you call 'nerfs' in the Original Post. The change to dodge on items (not enhancements) being an enhance pass nerf for example.
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