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  1. #101
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    I have a couple of thought about what new players know, in the current system.

    Have you ever wondered, given the way it is currently set up, if there may be a significant number of new players that don't even know that prestige enhancements exist? Assuming they don't read the forums or the wiki, it is in no way obvious that pre's are there.

    On a side note, how long do you think is the average time before a brand new player learns that the lfm panel exists?

  2. #102
    Community Member ThePrisoner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    Not a semantic issue at all. Just because someone chooses a flavor option on a build that does not work very well currently does not make them less of gimps. It is very clear that they are not the most concerned about the viability of their builds, because if they were they would be running more viable builds currently.
    If it's not a semantic issue, then these two statements are simply false:
    "* those who cared about their builds a lot already bothered building toons which were not gimps
    * those who did not care so much have more gimps"

    Some might argue that a flavor build requires more time, thought, and care to become viable, because they are fighting against the current mechanics and natural power of the prestige classes currently available. If current classes and prestige classes are "gimped by comparison" to others, this is not a function of a player's lack of "care about his builds". This is a function of game mechanics. Some classes and prestige classes are getting buffed in the update, and rather than benefit those who "don't care" about the game, it is going to reward those who have been intrigued by different fighting styles that the game has tried, perhaps unsuccessfully, to make viable, it is going to reward those who became bored with the classes and combinations that are (or were) naturally more effective, and it is going to reward those who have had the creativity to branch out.

    Currently, I of course run viable builds for the sake of maximum efficiency, but I have these other characters sitting on the shelf that would be really fun to play if there was more balance between the prestige classes. Again, having these "gimps" is not a result of a lack of care.

    As a side note, some of my more flavorful builds, while they would naturally be getting buffed some, will have to TR after the update because better options and combinations will become available. So I wouldn't look at this like a "gimps are going to rule the universe and FOTM builds are getting screwed" doomsday scenario. I think most people are going to have to want to TR, regardless of class, and then they will have to put thought and care into making something that works in the new system.

    I personally have been gathering gear, doing appropriate TRs, engaging in dojo testing, and testing out builds for that last few months. While I do realize the system isn't complete, I expect some basic ideas and features to remain unchanged. You might want to start putting some "care" and thought into what builds you think are going to be viable. You don't want to be accused of using gimps when this launches.

  3. #103
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    While not a new player myself, I occasionally have trouble defending my mouse or mouse cord from my cats when I sit at the computer
    I actually use a wireless mouse now, the expletive expletive expletive expletive cat bit thru three mouse wires in a month at one point.

  4. #104
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    Not a semantic issue at all. Just because someone chooses a flavor option on a build that does not work very well currently does not make them less of gimps. It is very clear that they are not the most concerned about the viability of their builds, because if they were they would be running more viable builds currently.
    If it's not a semantic issue, then these two statements are simply false:
    "* those who cared about their builds a lot already bothered building toons which were not gimps
    * those who did not care so much have more gimps"

    Some might argue that a flavor build requires more time, thought, and care to become viable, because they are fighting against the current mechanics and natural power of the prestige classes currently available. If current classes and prestige classes are "gimped by comparison" to others, this is not a function of a player's lack of "care about his builds". This is a function of game mechanics. Some classes and prestige classes are getting buffed in the update, and rather than benefit those who "don't care" about the game, it is going to reward those who have been intrigued by different fighting styles that the game has tried, perhaps unsuccessfully, to make viable, it is going to reward those who became bored with the classes and combinations that are (or were) naturally more effective, and it is going to reward those who have had the creativity to branch out.

    Currently, I of course run highly viable builds for the sake of maximum efficiency, but I have these other characters sitting on the shelf that would be really fun to play if there was more balance between the prestige classes. Again, having these "gimps" is not a result of a lack of care.

    As a side note, most of my more flavorful builds, while they would naturally be getting buffed some, will have to TR after the update because better options and combinations will become available. So I wouldn't look at this like a "gimps are going to rule the universe and FOTM builds are getting screwed" doomsday scenario. I think most people are going to want to TR, regardless of class, and then they will have to put thought and care into making something that works in the new system.

    I personally have been gathering gear, collecting appropriate past lives, engaging in dojo testing, and testing out builds for that last few months in anticipation of the changes. While I do realize the system isn't complete, I expect some basic ideas and features to remain unchanged. You might want to start putting some thought and "care" into what builds you think are going to be viable. I would hate for anyone to get accused of using gimps when this launches.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 07-04-2013 at 03:36 PM.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    I can only assume, and sorry if I'm wrong droid, that droid was referring to gimps as character classes using prestiges that currently receive less love or are incomplete, not characters that were in some way half-assed. So I suspect that the disagreement here is semantic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    Not a semantic issue at all. Just because someone chooses a flavor option on a build that does not work very well currently does not make them less of gimps. It is very clear that they are not the most concerned about the viability of their builds, because if they were they would be running more viable builds currently.
    There's two real interpretations of the word "gimp"...

    1) Someone who plays a build that's intended to work the way you play it, but because of the way the game's designed, is much less optimized than other builds. Repeater rogues. DEX-based Finesse builds. Thrower builds. They should work, but they just don't, or at least not well enough for the min-maxers.

    2) Someone who plays a build that's such a mismatched pastiche of classes and playstyles, or centered around something so obscure, that there's no way it could ever be viable. Wiz/Clr/Fgt 8/6/6 splits. Pure wand caster. A Greataxe monk.

    I meant the first one, the builds that "should" work, and kinda do, just not well enough to faceroll EE.

    I don't think it shows that people don't care about optimizing their build if they don't choose one of the 6 EE-approved cookiecutter builds. I think it just shows that they enjoy a different playstyle, and I think its an improvement to the game if those different (legitimate) playstyles are brought up to par with the "STR-and-saves" paradigm builds currently owning endgame. The difference, I think, is between "viability" and "optimization"...a build can be viable, in that it can complete all the content, it just might not be optimized for the current game.

    But the game's always going to be changing, so we can only ask that our favorite builds remain viable, not demand that they always remain optimized, or else the game will only become ever more focused around a single playstyle until everyone is forced to adopt it.
    Last edited by droid327; 07-04-2013 at 03:17 PM.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    Not a semantic issue at all. Just because someone chooses a flavor option on a build that does not work very well currently does not make them less of gimps. It is very clear that they are not the most concerned about the viability of their builds, because if they were they would be running more viable builds currently.
    By viable, do you mean customized to take maximum advantage of synergies that exist in the system? Because those would be the builds most effected by changes to that system and some of the changes could be to plug some of the holes the devs feel the players are using in the system.

  7. #107
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    Would it be to late for Turbine to change the Bigby's boxes content to something more appropriate to a 4000 TP purchase? Or refund those who bought one, without knowing that the stone of XP within was only half as good as the stone in Otto's boxes?

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cathimon View Post
    Would it be to late for Turbine to change the Bigby's boxes content to something more appropriate to a 4000 TP purchase? Or refund those who bought one, without knowing that the stone of XP within was only half as good as the stone in Otto's boxes?
    Are you upset that Turbine didn't tell us that the new boxes don't benefit from an unintentional exploit that was neither intended nor advertised for the old boxes?

  9. #109
    Community Member DrNuegebauer's Avatar
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    Another nerf:

    Sprint boost is not available at level 1 for either barbarians or rangers.

    Requiring 2 barb levels to get sprint boost is a massive nerf for TRs.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNuegebauer View Post
    Another nerf:

    Sprint boost is not available at level 1 for either barbarians or rangers.

    Requiring 2 barb levels to get sprint boost is a massive nerf for TRs.
    Because it adds a minute or so to the time it takes to level 2?

  11. #111
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Because it adds a minute or so to the time it takes to level 2?
    No, because taking a 2-barb splash can be too much for builds that would normally splash 1 barb.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  12. #112
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNuegebauer View Post
    Another nerf:

    Sprint boost is not available at level 1 for either barbarians or rangers.

    Requiring 2 barb levels to get sprint boost is a massive nerf for TRs.
    Rofl

    You mean it would be a massive nerf to the few TRs that splash an entire class level just so they can run a little faster

    I TR a lot, and I do a lot of questing with TRs. The 1 barb splash is not something I see commonly.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  13. #113
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Rofl

    You mean it would be a massive nerf to the few TRs that splash an entire class level just so they can run a little faster

    I TR a lot, and I do a lot of questing with TRs. The 1 barb splash is not something I see commonly.
    The people who would do a barb splash to level faster wouldn't be people you see in a group you run - they'd solo or do small groups of people they know.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  14. #114
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    I've been looking at the enhancements for DOS on Live and Lam

    I now see what you are pointing out.

    The Stance itself gave 25/50/75% threat for being in stance and the PrE had the additional bonus of 75% for using a shield.

    Again my reading of the New enhancements seems to me that the Inciteful Defense 25/50/75% stacks with the 50% of the Stance. So I will agree there appears to be a 25% Threat loss. It is a loss but it is not 1/2 the threat. The big difference is that a shield is no longer required to benefit from the Threat bonus. This is actually a 50% bonus to TWF and THF Threat builds, but is also a detriment to those Defender builds that don't want the agro.
    I guess its not great for me at the moment when im 2wf I often don't want aggro when I switch to my shield thats when I want aggro, so I can hold aggro and mitigate a lot of damage. Still even 2wf my damage mitigation will be higher than a lot of other people in the party I guess.

  15. #115
    Community Member PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    many characters lose 20 to 80hps ( - Toughness enhancements + Heroic durability 5hp increases at class level 5, 10 etc.)

    Apparently you can't do arithmetic. The increase to heroic durability adds a total of 20 hp, which EXACTLY EQUALS the existing toughness enhancements available to Artificer, Bard, Cleric, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard, and Sorcerer without requiring you to take the Toughness feat. Toughness feat still grants exactly the same number of hp. The classes and race that currently get extra toughness enhancements all have enhancements that also grant HP. Basically what has happened is that you get a feat back if you want it.

    Lore Items give massively lowered spell crit improvements (3% for greater lore it appears)

    The Mental Toughness feats now add spell crit. They have also fixed the goofy way spell crit was stacking before so your percentage of actual crits should be about the same.

    All Spell Power losses 20 to 80 (exact break down left out due to the dozens of ways multiclassing can add spell power that will no longer be possible, and the many ways the new skills and AP spent in tree will add spell power, but not nearly as much as is being lost)

    My test characters actually GAINED a significant portion of spellpower over my live versions PARTICULARLY in areas where I didn't choose to invest due to lack of AP.

    Humans pay far more for healing amp

    2 AP per rank for 3 ranks = 6 ap versus live which is 2/4/6 for a total of 10 ap. Not sure how 6 is MORE than 10. They do have pre-reqs with the new stuff, but once the core racials are unlocked you can get almost all of the pre-req investment

    Dwarves no longer have Faith mana lines

    Dwarves now GET the ability to use con for damage with dwarf weapons. Losing or gaining a specific ability may or may not actually qualify as a "nerf"--you could take away 99% of the abilities and still have it be a net GAIN if the remaining one ability was boosted enough.

    Most Dodge items just got a useless affix as only the highest applies and the lower numbers do not stack, to compensate they have doubled all dodge bonuses (4% is now 8%) but this still nerfs a lot of formerly useful gear.

    Most of the items that have dodge bonuses of less than 4% are overall such **** that it's not worth giving up a gear slot solely to get 1% extra dodge. I'm sure TONS of people were using the Staff of Natt Gann to get that rare 1% dodge . . . oh, wait. As it is, the 8% bonus you can get from a SINGLE dodge item is only 2% worse than the VERY BEST bonus you could get prior to that, which was 1% + 2% +3% +4%, i.e. 10%. All the items in the game that give 1% or 2% dodge are horrible low-level items that are worthless at epic levels anyway, so basically if dodge is your thing you are gaining the ability to ditch a ton of gear that SUCKS. Many, many prestige paths are also gaining dodge bonuses that previously did not exist. Every test character I've made has MORE dodge now than they did prior to the change.

    Monk Dance of the water strider no longer exists

    Since it didn't work on half the water in the game and was only actually a USEFUL ability in one raid (and then only if your ice-wanding partner screwed up and died), who cares.

    ToD sets no longer recognized PREs. This nets a loss of STR / CON for some barbs, a loss -2 MCL for sorcs, DR breaking from light monks, etc

    ToD sets are no longer endgame gear.

    Sorcerers no longer have access to Scroll Mastery or Force Criticals

    3% crit from Mental Toughness feats on *all* spells.

    Sorcerers are now completely locked out of enhancements for their opposition school

    Since investing in your "opposition" element is a waste of points anyway, who cares. You shouldn't even be wasting spell slots on ANYTHING in that damage type.

    Wizard archmages no longer have a secondary set of SLAs - though they can get the PM SLAs in addition to one school of AM SLAs

    The non-force SLA's are **** anyway. You're better off keeping your SP.

    Monks can no longer have Void Strike 4 and Touch of Death.

    You don't need 9 levels of Monk to get ToD now, either.

    Elven Fluidity no longer effects(sic) shields ASF

    Considering it cost TEN ENHANCEMENT POINTS to get a mere 10% reduction before, who cares. There are plenty of caster shields and other offhand items with no ASF anyway and plenty of items that reduce ASF otherwise.

    Animal form druids get no spell power including no devotion

    They get as much as they invest in spellcraft. You mean they don't get any from ENHANCEMENTS. But the caster druid prestige doesn't get much either because almost everything in that tree is dreadful. If you want spellpower enhancements on a druid, your best bet is to take 2 levels of Monk and invest heavily in Shintao and Henshin Mystic, which will get you bonus positive, fire, and force spellpower in addition to a *colossal* wad of bonus PRR for absolutely no loss since animal form druids don't proc offhand attacks anyway. Absolute worst-case scenario it's a loss of MAYBE 40 spellpower, hardly noticeable because Druids don't have big single-whammy spells that benefit highly from multiplicative effects like spellpower.

    Iron Defender Companion line, for non-Arti's has been removed

    This is only a nerf if you consider it powerful to grief people with grease. In which case you can get a clickie.
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNuegebauer View Post
    Another nerf:

    Sprint boost is not available at level 1 for either barbarians or rangers.

    Requiring 2 barb levels to get sprint boost is a massive nerf for TRs.
    One thing I don't like about this EP change: for those who take Barb or Ranger as a main class, not just a splash, you're forced to choose between Sprint and Haste Boost. Obviously, Haste is way more important than Sprint, especially for Humans that can stack it with Versatility damage boost. Since Sprint is more of a convenience than a real power boost, I wish they'd make it something you could take at L1 for 1 Action point.

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Rofl

    You mean it would be a massive nerf to the few TRs that splash an entire class level just so they can run a little faster

    I TR a lot, and I do a lot of questing with TRs. The 1 barb splash is not something I see commonly.
    1 Barb/19 Sorc WF, Str-based with THF and no-DC DOT spells, try it Barb gives you proficiencies as well as Sprint/Fast Movement and a Toughness rank and +1 to Power Attack. Its really a good toolbox for blitzing Heroic, for 1 class level.

  17. #117
    Community Member ZeebaNeighba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    [*] ToD sets no longer recognized PREs. This nets a loss of STR / CON for some barbs, a loss -2 MCL for sorcs, DR breaking from light monks, etc
    Worked on already:
    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    Are the ToD rings ever going to be updated to reflect the enhancement pass?
    There is a plan, but it is more complex than you may think, not any time soon.
    It may or may not nerf people, but we have no information on how they are getting reworked.

  18. #118
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    -a bunch of potential posatives about the new enhancements-
    Um, Blondy? I think you missed the premise of the thread... There's only supposed to be complaints about the evil nerfs the pass has to offer, no sunshine or rainbows plz...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  19. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    Humans pay far more for healing amp

    2 AP per rank for 3 ranks = 6 ap versus live which is 2/4/6 for a total of 10 ap. Not sure how 6 is MORE than 10. They do have pre-reqs with the new stuff, but once the core racials are unlocked you can get almost all of the pre-req investment
    Unlocking them is what makes them cost more.

    Most humans don't take any racial enhancements outside of human recovery and maybe adaptability. This new system doubles the AP they have to spend.

  20. #120
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    snip
    I was just thinking how there's no thread debunking the complaints or speaking of the positives of the enhancement Pass. I'm glad someone did. Good show.

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