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  1. #1
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Default The complete list of nerfs in the enhancement pass thread

    The lack of uproar over nerfs that appear to be going live in the pass tells me that people are distracted or not realizing the full extent of them, or not reading lam forums.

    It strikes me that we need a compilation of all the nerfs in the enhancement pass so people wont be so blind sided by them I'm afraid that a lot of people tune out threads about the pass because of the conflicting opinions and arguing. Well most nerfs are objectively measurable. So without any ranting or raving here are the ones I have seen just looking over my own "areas of interest". Other people are more tuned in to other classes and playstyles, please respond and add the nerfs you see. Please make as sure as possible that they are an objective nerf and not a lateral change. I'm going to list them with minimal commentary and update this list as needed. Please don't argue about what balanced or unbalanced. If you think something is not a nerf say so, but please refrain from getting into arguments and derailing the thread.



    1. many characters lose 20 to 80hps ( - Toughness enhancements + Heroic durability 5hp increases at class level 5, 10 etc.)
    2. Lore Items give massively lowered spell crit improvements (3% for greater lore it appears)
    3. Spell crits overall lose give or take 10% and lots of multiplier (+5% from magic training if your class gets that up to +6% from New enhancement "AP spent/Core abilities" best case, -10% from old enhancement lines -7% to -12% lore item nerf)
    4. All Spell Power losses 20 to 80 (exact break down left out due to the dozens of ways multiclassing can add spell power that will no longer be possible, and the many ways the new skills and AP spent in tree will add spell power, but not nearly as much as is being lost)
    5. Rangers no longer have a devotion line, or positive spell power booster
    6. Paladins no longer have a devotion line or positive spell power booster
    7. Bard spell singers mana proc reduced
    8. Barbarians lose X2 criticals from current Frenzied PrE
    9. Stalwart's can no longer be TWF or THF, must equip a shield to get PrE/Stance benefits
    10. Sword and Board no longer gets 20 passive PRR bonus from the defender PrE's just for equipping a shield (instead shield use is mandatory so they took the incentive bonus PRR away)
    11. Cleric lose Divine Might line
    12. Humans pay far more for healing amp
    13. Dwarves no longer have Faith mana lines
    14. Most Dodge items just got a useless affix as only the highest applies and the lower numbers do not stack, to compensate they have doubled all dodge bonuses (4% is now 8%) but this still nerfs a lot of formerly useful gear.
    15. Fighters lose extra action boost line
    16. Fighters lose Tactics DC's (used to be a part of Kensei PrE and a generic line, now only just part of Kensei)
    17. FvS's lose weapon specialization
    18. Void strike does not have off-hand procs
    19. The current amount of monk-healing amp, previously available to all lvl 12 monks is only available to a lvl 20 pure shintao monk w/ shintao capstone, so subtract 10-20% healing amp
    20. Monk Dance of the water strider no longer exists
    21. ToD sets no longer recognized PREs. This nets a loss of STR / CON for some barbs, a loss -2 MCL for sorcs, DR breaking from light monks, etc
    22. Sorcerers no longer have access to Scroll Mastery or Force Criticals
    23. Sorcerers are now completely locked out of enhancements for their opposition school
    24. Wizard archmages no longer have a secondary set of SLAs - though they can get the PM SLAs in addition to one school of AM SLAs
    25. Monks can no longer have Void Strike 4 and Touch of Death.
    26. Void Strike 4 now costs 15 ki, instead of 5. Though the damage increased from 8d4 to 10d6. Still a nerf to me, since the insta-kill was the main use.
    27. Sword and Board also lose 75% threat from equipping a shield (in addition to the loss of 20 PRR, that is to say: Defender PrE now gives HALF the PRR and +Threat
    28. Elven Fluidity no longer effects shields ASF
    29. Animal form druids get no spell power including no devotion
    30. Iron Defender Companion line, for non-Arti's has been removed
    31. Barbarian splashes no longer get sprint boost at first level
    32. Void Strike 3 is gone completely
    33. Barb and Ranger forced to choose between Sprint and Haste Boost
    34. Paladin Divine Might now adds Charisma Modifier to Strength. Objectively a nerf. 2 points investment in charisma = 1 strength point. Divine Might IV at top tier used to require 20 charisma to give 8 extra damage, to equal that 8 damage you need +32 charisma modifier to get +16 to strength or 64 charisma, a 44 point increase. Animation has been speed up, and Duration is up to double, but does not offset the loss in damage. In a best case scenario a 2 build point cost charisma point is strictly better invested in strength where possible; as you would need 4 build points to get 2 CHA just to equal 1, 3 point strength increase. To get DMIII (used to be a 18 CHA requirement) equivalent damage (6 extra damage) you would need 48 points of CHA (damn I must be wrong but I'm looking at it on wiki and it says Charisma modifier to strength)


    Please post the nerfs you know of and I will update the list.

    Note please keep this thread civil and on point, this is not a thread for discussing the merits of nerfs, or game balance, it is a collection of the ones that are currently (or were currently to the best of my/our knowledge) contained in the enhancement pass) I ask that all such posts be ignored and reported. This is a list of things that are objectively quantifiable as nerfs. Not a debate over whether they are needed or how overpowered or unbalanced anything is.
    .
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 07-08-2013 at 02:30 PM. Reason: added Divine Might opps not 16 charisma mod 32 charisma mod

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    The lack of uproar over nerfs that appear to be going live in the pass tells me that people are distracted or not realizing the full extent of them, or not reading lam forums.
    Most of the people that I have played DDO with for years have simply stopped caring after the Enhancement Alpha. When they saw what was coming they uninstalled and have not looked back. I am still hoping that with good feedback Turbine can course correct and get through this without tanking DDO.

    [*]most characters lose 30 to 80hps ( - Toughness enhancements + Heroic durability 5hp increases at class level 5, 10 etc.)
    This seems like a bit of an exaggeration. 'Most' characters do not get any Class Toughness enhancements, just 2 ranks for Racial Enhancement. But on Live currently, if your gear is not where it should be or if you just feel that you are a bit low at a certain point you have the option to take Half Elf and Barbarian Dilettante or splash fighter for 1-2 Class Toughness Ranks. And the classes that were taking 30-40 points on Class Enhancements are mostly all now dropped down to 0-15. Couple that with +5 Heroic Durability and +5 at class levels 5, 10, and 15, and it seems like 10-50 HP loss is more accurate.

    The rest of your list seems good, though it does seem to be missing a few things. I will add more when I get home and can jump on Lamannia to make sure what I say is accurate, but the one thing that really stood out to me was Favored Souls. They loose their weapon specialization enhancements and related bonuses. With any luck, these will be in the Divine Avenger tree. But it is hard to be hopeful about that ever being released, considering that there has been no mention of it since Eladrin was giving hints about how the mechanics of it were going to work two years ago. ~.~

  3. #3
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    Nerf us now to buff us later!

    Go go house C
    Characters: Celemia / Tukson / Thau (Broken link) / Atremus

    “A pessimist is one who feels bad when he feels good for fear he'll feel worse when he feels better.”

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post


    1. most characters lose 30 to 80hps ( - Toughness enhancements + Heroic durability 5hp increases at class level 5, 10 etc.)
    2. Lore Items give massively lowered spell crit improvements (3% for greater lore it appears)
    3. Spell crits overall lose give or take 10% and lots of multiplier (+5% from magic training if your class gets that up to +6% from New enhancement "AP spent/Core abilities" best case, -10% from old enhancement lines -7% to -12% lore item nerf)
    4. All Spell Power losses 20 to 80 (exact break down left out due to the dozens of ways multiclassing can add spell power that will no longer be possible, and the many ways the new skills and AP spent in tree will add spell power, but not nearly as much as is being lost)
    5. Rangers no longer have a devotion line, or positive spell power booster
    6. Paladins no longer have a devotion line or positive spell power booster
    7. Bard spell singers mana proc reduced
    8. Barbarians lose X2 criticals from current Frenzied PrE
    9. Stalwart's can no longer be TWF or THF, must equip a shield to get PrE/Stance benefits
    10. Paladin DOS can no longer be TWF or THF, must equip a shield to get PrE/Stance benefits
    11. Sword and Board no longer gets passive PRR bonus from the defender PrE's (instead shield use is mandatory so they took the incentive bonus PRR away)
    12. Cleric lose Divine Might line
    13. Humans pay far more for healing amp
    14. Dwarves no longer have Faith mana lines
    15. Most Dodge items just got a useless affix as only the highest applies and the lower numbers do not stack
    16. Fighters lose extra action boost line
    17. Fighters lose Tactics DC's (used to be a part of Kensei PrE and a generic line, now only just part of Kensei)
    18. to be cont.
    not sure i agree about all of those, but here's the ones i noticed

    The current amount of monk-healing amp, previously available to all lvl 12 monks is only available to a lvl 20 pure shintao monk w/ shintao capstone, so subtract 10-20% healing amp(assuming you spend 5 points in the tree)

    void strike does not have off-hand procs

  5. #5
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    rangers and paladins losing devotion lines? I hope theres plans to develop named gear that would be useful with devotion on it or I would be plat dumping ardor pots like crazy. my ranger will not be dual wielding a devotion weapon and his epic chaosblade.

    #1 im on the fence about. might rage about it after its live.

    #8 if barbs are suddenly OP because of their dps, its not because of the pre. try again devs and look somewhere else. that's a big nerf.

    #9 - 11 makes sense to me so I don't consider it a nerf.

    #13 why does it cost more for humans to get hamp? not dwarves? halflings? other fleshies? bad change.

    #14 lets take more PnP out of DDO. nerf.

    #16 I don't consider it a nerf. in upper levels you can easily get more AB from ED and TOD set. I never wasted the AP on it either. to some it may be a nerf.

    #17 does this mean the fighter PL will be changed too? wouldn't want all fighters to get +1 combat DC. I mean its only one of the biggest things about the class. another more DDO and less PnP change.

  6. #6
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    edit #13 because I cant edit my own post. but still, wrong.

  7. #7
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    I think most of us are just taking a wait and see attitude. If we all uninstalled everytime the forums are in an uproar we'd do a lot of installing/uninstalling

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    Can you please provide a link to the full list?

    I know for myself the reason I am not all "up in arms about it" is because I have no clue what the nerf's are. I seem to read about it in various spurts and splats in different threads but nothing from DDO that says "this is what we are doing"

    Love a link if there is one.

  9. #9
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    Are we not getting any buffs? or are you just focused on the negative.

    Oh wait you did list one dodge items are buffed, but you still think that's a nerf to oh well.

  10. #10
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Need to list all the NEW abilities we're getting as well, or this thread is worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  11. #11
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Need to list all the NEW abilities we're getting as well, or this thread is worthless.
    Well hey take that initiative and start your own thread!

  12. #12
    Community Member -Zephyr-'s Avatar
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    About #16 : I'm pretty sure I saw "extra action boost" in the Kensai tree, on tier 1, without any pre-req (aside from spending that very first point on the very first core. Which is stupid imo, cores should be granted for free as soon as you spend enough points in the tree).

    The nerf I disliked the most : waterwalking went poof. Gone. Replaced by a fairly useless clicky.
    Owy Evoker FvS / Praledric Completionist Qstaff Rogue/Monk/Druid / Laraeph DC Wizard / Laraelph AA Monk/Ranger/Pally / Gaenry Shiradi Sorc/FvS/Wiz / Reasis SWF Pally & numerous others
    The Leveller for DDO!

  13. #13
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rest View Post
    Well hey take that initiative and start your own thread!
    That would require an understanding of the changes and general game mechanics.

  14. #14
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Zephyr- View Post
    About #16 : I'm pretty sure I saw "extra action boost" in the Kensai tree, on tier 1, without any pre-req (aside from spending that very first point on the very first core. Which is stupid imo, cores should be granted for free as soon as you spend enough points in the tree).

    The nerf I disliked the most : waterwalking went poof. Gone. Replaced by a fairly useless clicky.
    You did, but that just makes up for the ones they are currently now being auto-granted.

    Add another regarding fighter in general . . . Statlwart is just plain terrible. More than 40 APs needed to get now what we have on live and it's lousy.

    40 APs . . . to still suck.

  15. #15
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RudedawCDN View Post
    Can you please provide a link to the full list?

    I know for myself the reason I am not all "up in arms about it" is because I have no clue what the nerf's are. I seem to read about it in various spurts and splats in different threads but nothing from DDO that says "this is what we are doing"
    Sadly, Turbine doesn't usually provide that sort of info, and when they do attempt it it's couched in PR double speak instead of useful information...
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Need to list all the NEW abilities we're getting as well, or this thread is worthless.
    That would be a "Posative changes with the Enhancement pass thread"
    If you would like to start compiling the list I would much appreciate it
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  16. #16
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    When they saw what was coming they uninstalled and have not looked back. I am still hoping that with good feedback Turbine can course correct and get through this without tanking DDO.
    I quit shortly after all the near-mandatory "join a guild" updates happened (was that update 5?). It got annoying to end up with 75% of my random loot being unusable due to it having a guild slot. Stayed away for about two years and finally came back about 9-10 months ago (or right around the MotuD update maybe?).

    This major Enhancement overhaul at first had me excited because I thought all it was going to be was moving to a tree-ui and completing all the unfinished PrE lines. Now, with the thought of having to re-build all my alts and then possibly re-gear them I am nervous.

    To the OP - sorry for going off-topic but I tried to keep it civil.

  17. #17

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    A few additions, comments.

    Spell Criticals:

    You can get 5% magical training + 8% enhancements + 6% lore item (they updated the text / effect with the new pass) = 19% chance to critical. Not too much worse then now. Where they get you is the loss of the multiplier. Everyone just gets double damage now, instead of the 2.75 available fully specced.
    -- To be clear, it is a massive nerf, however. Spell Crits end up half as useful as they are now.

    Some other nerfs:
    ToD sets no longer recognized PREs. This nets a loss of STR / CON for some barbs, a loss -2 MCL for sorcs, DR breaking from light monks, etc

    Sorcerers no longer have access to Scroll Mastery or Force Criticals.

    Sorcerers are now completely locked out of enhancements for their opposition school.

    Wizard archmages no longer have a secondary set of SLAs - though they can get the PM SLAs in addition to one school of AM SLAs

    Monks can no longer have Void Strike 4 and Touch of Death.

    Void Strike 4 now costs 15 ki, instead of 5. Though the damage increased from 8d4 to 10d6. Still a nerf to me, since the insta-kill was the main use.

    While, with additional effort (skills + skill gear), you can get similar spell power, if you spend points in a non-caster tree (like your racial tree), you lose spell power in proportion to the points you spent. Overall, spell power is a bit hard to directly compare, but I agree with the OP. Generally a bit nerfed.

    Those come to mind quickly.

    As to some buffs:

    Pure tempest rangers can now hit notably faster.

    Druids get SLAs: Produce Flame, Creeping Cold, Call Lightning, Word of Balance (90s cd), Sunburst (2m cd), Storm of Vengance (2m cd). The first 3 have short cooldowns. Storm of Vengeance is still nice, even with the long cooldown.

    Clerics get SLAs. Don't recall them all. They include some decent ones, including a new ability that'll be similar to lightning bolt and holy smite. They can also select the "dark" path, but those SLAs are not as good, overall.

    Monks and Rogues can make Sireth about as strong as an eSoS, and they get some cool q-staff abilities to compliment it.

    Monks can add threat range to kamas, shortswords, and shuriken. Again, you can actually make some potent kama / shortsword builds with the right named items.

    FvS gain some +MCL. They also get a nifty enhancement for getting temporary sp. Against groups, you can get a high chance to get 10 temp sp per spell cast on them.

    Lots of 'meh' short cool down / small bonus effect attacks.

  18. #18
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    The one that baffles me the most is why wizards are gaining so much spell power, and sorcerers are losing so much.

  19. #19
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    This thread is completely worthless without balancing the pluses AND minuses...

    Remember when we only had 4 enhancements like 6 years ago and Turbine completely redid enhancements (there were massive posts of doom back then too)...

    This thread is exactly as worthless as someone back then posting about the few enhancements that were lost with that change, but nothing about the dozen of NEW abilities that we got...
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  20. #20
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    I"m amused by the assumption of a lack of an uproar. While chastising others for it, I dont' think the OP reads the Lamm forums.

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