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  1. #1
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Default The complete list of nerfs in the enhancement pass thread

    The lack of uproar over nerfs that appear to be going live in the pass tells me that people are distracted or not realizing the full extent of them, or not reading lam forums.

    It strikes me that we need a compilation of all the nerfs in the enhancement pass so people wont be so blind sided by them I'm afraid that a lot of people tune out threads about the pass because of the conflicting opinions and arguing. Well most nerfs are objectively measurable. So without any ranting or raving here are the ones I have seen just looking over my own "areas of interest". Other people are more tuned in to other classes and playstyles, please respond and add the nerfs you see. Please make as sure as possible that they are an objective nerf and not a lateral change. I'm going to list them with minimal commentary and update this list as needed. Please don't argue about what balanced or unbalanced. If you think something is not a nerf say so, but please refrain from getting into arguments and derailing the thread.



    1. many characters lose 20 to 80hps ( - Toughness enhancements + Heroic durability 5hp increases at class level 5, 10 etc.)
    2. Lore Items give massively lowered spell crit improvements (3% for greater lore it appears)
    3. Spell crits overall lose give or take 10% and lots of multiplier (+5% from magic training if your class gets that up to +6% from New enhancement "AP spent/Core abilities" best case, -10% from old enhancement lines -7% to -12% lore item nerf)
    4. All Spell Power losses 20 to 80 (exact break down left out due to the dozens of ways multiclassing can add spell power that will no longer be possible, and the many ways the new skills and AP spent in tree will add spell power, but not nearly as much as is being lost)
    5. Rangers no longer have a devotion line, or positive spell power booster
    6. Paladins no longer have a devotion line or positive spell power booster
    7. Bard spell singers mana proc reduced
    8. Barbarians lose X2 criticals from current Frenzied PrE
    9. Stalwart's can no longer be TWF or THF, must equip a shield to get PrE/Stance benefits
    10. Sword and Board no longer gets 20 passive PRR bonus from the defender PrE's just for equipping a shield (instead shield use is mandatory so they took the incentive bonus PRR away)
    11. Cleric lose Divine Might line
    12. Humans pay far more for healing amp
    13. Dwarves no longer have Faith mana lines
    14. Most Dodge items just got a useless affix as only the highest applies and the lower numbers do not stack, to compensate they have doubled all dodge bonuses (4% is now 8%) but this still nerfs a lot of formerly useful gear.
    15. Fighters lose extra action boost line
    16. Fighters lose Tactics DC's (used to be a part of Kensei PrE and a generic line, now only just part of Kensei)
    17. FvS's lose weapon specialization
    18. Void strike does not have off-hand procs
    19. The current amount of monk-healing amp, previously available to all lvl 12 monks is only available to a lvl 20 pure shintao monk w/ shintao capstone, so subtract 10-20% healing amp
    20. Monk Dance of the water strider no longer exists
    21. ToD sets no longer recognized PREs. This nets a loss of STR / CON for some barbs, a loss -2 MCL for sorcs, DR breaking from light monks, etc
    22. Sorcerers no longer have access to Scroll Mastery or Force Criticals
    23. Sorcerers are now completely locked out of enhancements for their opposition school
    24. Wizard archmages no longer have a secondary set of SLAs - though they can get the PM SLAs in addition to one school of AM SLAs
    25. Monks can no longer have Void Strike 4 and Touch of Death.
    26. Void Strike 4 now costs 15 ki, instead of 5. Though the damage increased from 8d4 to 10d6. Still a nerf to me, since the insta-kill was the main use.
    27. Sword and Board also lose 75% threat from equipping a shield (in addition to the loss of 20 PRR, that is to say: Defender PrE now gives HALF the PRR and +Threat
    28. Elven Fluidity no longer effects shields ASF
    29. Animal form druids get no spell power including no devotion
    30. Iron Defender Companion line, for non-Arti's has been removed
    31. Barbarian splashes no longer get sprint boost at first level
    32. Void Strike 3 is gone completely
    33. Barb and Ranger forced to choose between Sprint and Haste Boost
    34. Paladin Divine Might now adds Charisma Modifier to Strength. Objectively a nerf. 2 points investment in charisma = 1 strength point. Divine Might IV at top tier used to require 20 charisma to give 8 extra damage, to equal that 8 damage you need +32 charisma modifier to get +16 to strength or 64 charisma, a 44 point increase. Animation has been speed up, and Duration is up to double, but does not offset the loss in damage. In a best case scenario a 2 build point cost charisma point is strictly better invested in strength where possible; as you would need 4 build points to get 2 CHA just to equal 1, 3 point strength increase. To get DMIII (used to be a 18 CHA requirement) equivalent damage (6 extra damage) you would need 48 points of CHA (damn I must be wrong but I'm looking at it on wiki and it says Charisma modifier to strength)


    Please post the nerfs you know of and I will update the list.

    Note please keep this thread civil and on point, this is not a thread for discussing the merits of nerfs, or game balance, it is a collection of the ones that are currently (or were currently to the best of my/our knowledge) contained in the enhancement pass) I ask that all such posts be ignored and reported. This is a list of things that are objectively quantifiable as nerfs. Not a debate over whether they are needed or how overpowered or unbalanced anything is.
    .
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 07-08-2013 at 02:30 PM. Reason: added Divine Might opps not 16 charisma mod 32 charisma mod

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    The lack of uproar over nerfs that appear to be going live in the pass tells me that people are distracted or not realizing the full extent of them, or not reading lam forums.
    Most of the people that I have played DDO with for years have simply stopped caring after the Enhancement Alpha. When they saw what was coming they uninstalled and have not looked back. I am still hoping that with good feedback Turbine can course correct and get through this without tanking DDO.

    [*]most characters lose 30 to 80hps ( - Toughness enhancements + Heroic durability 5hp increases at class level 5, 10 etc.)
    This seems like a bit of an exaggeration. 'Most' characters do not get any Class Toughness enhancements, just 2 ranks for Racial Enhancement. But on Live currently, if your gear is not where it should be or if you just feel that you are a bit low at a certain point you have the option to take Half Elf and Barbarian Dilettante or splash fighter for 1-2 Class Toughness Ranks. And the classes that were taking 30-40 points on Class Enhancements are mostly all now dropped down to 0-15. Couple that with +5 Heroic Durability and +5 at class levels 5, 10, and 15, and it seems like 10-50 HP loss is more accurate.

    The rest of your list seems good, though it does seem to be missing a few things. I will add more when I get home and can jump on Lamannia to make sure what I say is accurate, but the one thing that really stood out to me was Favored Souls. They loose their weapon specialization enhancements and related bonuses. With any luck, these will be in the Divine Avenger tree. But it is hard to be hopeful about that ever being released, considering that there has been no mention of it since Eladrin was giving hints about how the mechanics of it were going to work two years ago. ~.~

  3. #3
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    When they saw what was coming they uninstalled and have not looked back. I am still hoping that with good feedback Turbine can course correct and get through this without tanking DDO.
    I quit shortly after all the near-mandatory "join a guild" updates happened (was that update 5?). It got annoying to end up with 75% of my random loot being unusable due to it having a guild slot. Stayed away for about two years and finally came back about 9-10 months ago (or right around the MotuD update maybe?).

    This major Enhancement overhaul at first had me excited because I thought all it was going to be was moving to a tree-ui and completing all the unfinished PrE lines. Now, with the thought of having to re-build all my alts and then possibly re-gear them I am nervous.

    To the OP - sorry for going off-topic but I tried to keep it civil.

  4. #4
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    This seems like a bit of an exaggeration. 'Most' characters do not get any Class Toughness enhancements, just 2 ranks for Racial Enhancement.
    Fair enough I've dropped the low end down to 20, I will say that by most I just mean a simple majority of characters, I have almost no characters that don't have both class and racial toughness. I have a lot of Dwarves but even my FvS has 2 elf and 4 FvS (of which I take all but the last). I would also point out that those high cost tiers are by in large used by newer characters as mid levels when the extra HP's really help and then they re-do their enhancements later when they have better gear and save a few AP's.

    So the ones most hurt by the toughness changes are newer players and less well geared players going into the hardest content.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    one thing that really stood out to me was Favored Souls. They loose their weapon specialization enhancements and related bonuses. With any luck, these will be in the Divine Avenger tree. But it is hard to be hopeful about that ever being released, considering that there has been no mention of it since Eladrin was giving hints about how the mechanics of it were going to work two years ago. ~.~
    Hey they can just cut and paste the Divine Disciple tree over from cleric Nerf added, and thanks this is one that's in my wheelhouse but I didn't even realize... My FvS's (2 of them) will do less weapon damage.

  5. #5
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    Nerf us now to buff us later!

    Go go house C
    Characters: Celemia / Tukson / Thau (Broken link) / Atremus

    “A pessimist is one who feels bad when he feels good for fear he'll feel worse when he feels better.”

  6. #6
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    rangers and paladins losing devotion lines? I hope theres plans to develop named gear that would be useful with devotion on it or I would be plat dumping ardor pots like crazy. my ranger will not be dual wielding a devotion weapon and his epic chaosblade.

    #1 im on the fence about. might rage about it after its live.

    #8 if barbs are suddenly OP because of their dps, its not because of the pre. try again devs and look somewhere else. that's a big nerf.

    #9 - 11 makes sense to me so I don't consider it a nerf.

    #13 why does it cost more for humans to get hamp? not dwarves? halflings? other fleshies? bad change.

    #14 lets take more PnP out of DDO. nerf.

    #16 I don't consider it a nerf. in upper levels you can easily get more AB from ED and TOD set. I never wasted the AP on it either. to some it may be a nerf.

    #17 does this mean the fighter PL will be changed too? wouldn't want all fighters to get +1 combat DC. I mean its only one of the biggest things about the class. another more DDO and less PnP change.

  7. #7
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    edit #13 because I cant edit my own post. but still, wrong.

  8. #8
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    I think most of us are just taking a wait and see attitude. If we all uninstalled everytime the forums are in an uproar we'd do a lot of installing/uninstalling

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    Can you please provide a link to the full list?

    I know for myself the reason I am not all "up in arms about it" is because I have no clue what the nerf's are. I seem to read about it in various spurts and splats in different threads but nothing from DDO that says "this is what we are doing"

    Love a link if there is one.

  10. #10
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RudedawCDN View Post
    Can you please provide a link to the full list?

    I know for myself the reason I am not all "up in arms about it" is because I have no clue what the nerf's are. I seem to read about it in various spurts and splats in different threads but nothing from DDO that says "this is what we are doing"
    Sadly, Turbine doesn't usually provide that sort of info, and when they do attempt it it's couched in PR double speak instead of useful information...
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Need to list all the NEW abilities we're getting as well, or this thread is worthless.
    That would be a "Posative changes with the Enhancement pass thread"
    If you would like to start compiling the list I would much appreciate it
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  11. #11
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    Are we not getting any buffs? or are you just focused on the negative.

    Oh wait you did list one dodge items are buffed, but you still think that's a nerf to oh well.

  12. #12
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Need to list all the NEW abilities we're getting as well, or this thread is worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post


    1. most characters lose 30 to 80hps ( - Toughness enhancements + Heroic durability 5hp increases at class level 5, 10 etc.)
    2. Lore Items give massively lowered spell crit improvements (3% for greater lore it appears)
    3. Spell crits overall lose give or take 10% and lots of multiplier (+5% from magic training if your class gets that up to +6% from New enhancement "AP spent/Core abilities" best case, -10% from old enhancement lines -7% to -12% lore item nerf)
    4. All Spell Power losses 20 to 80 (exact break down left out due to the dozens of ways multiclassing can add spell power that will no longer be possible, and the many ways the new skills and AP spent in tree will add spell power, but not nearly as much as is being lost)
    5. Rangers no longer have a devotion line, or positive spell power booster
    6. Paladins no longer have a devotion line or positive spell power booster
    7. Bard spell singers mana proc reduced
    8. Barbarians lose X2 criticals from current Frenzied PrE
    9. Stalwart's can no longer be TWF or THF, must equip a shield to get PrE/Stance benefits
    10. Paladin DOS can no longer be TWF or THF, must equip a shield to get PrE/Stance benefits
    11. Sword and Board no longer gets passive PRR bonus from the defender PrE's (instead shield use is mandatory so they took the incentive bonus PRR away)
    12. Cleric lose Divine Might line
    13. Humans pay far more for healing amp
    14. Dwarves no longer have Faith mana lines
    15. Most Dodge items just got a useless affix as only the highest applies and the lower numbers do not stack
    16. Fighters lose extra action boost line
    17. Fighters lose Tactics DC's (used to be a part of Kensei PrE and a generic line, now only just part of Kensei)
    18. to be cont.
    not sure i agree about all of those, but here's the ones i noticed

    The current amount of monk-healing amp, previously available to all lvl 12 monks is only available to a lvl 20 pure shintao monk w/ shintao capstone, so subtract 10-20% healing amp(assuming you spend 5 points in the tree)

    void strike does not have off-hand procs

  14. #14

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    A few additions, comments.

    Spell Criticals:

    You can get 5% magical training + 8% enhancements + 6% lore item (they updated the text / effect with the new pass) = 19% chance to critical. Not too much worse then now. Where they get you is the loss of the multiplier. Everyone just gets double damage now, instead of the 2.75 available fully specced.
    -- To be clear, it is a massive nerf, however. Spell Crits end up half as useful as they are now.

    Some other nerfs:
    ToD sets no longer recognized PREs. This nets a loss of STR / CON for some barbs, a loss -2 MCL for sorcs, DR breaking from light monks, etc

    Sorcerers no longer have access to Scroll Mastery or Force Criticals.

    Sorcerers are now completely locked out of enhancements for their opposition school.

    Wizard archmages no longer have a secondary set of SLAs - though they can get the PM SLAs in addition to one school of AM SLAs

    Monks can no longer have Void Strike 4 and Touch of Death.

    Void Strike 4 now costs 15 ki, instead of 5. Though the damage increased from 8d4 to 10d6. Still a nerf to me, since the insta-kill was the main use.

    While, with additional effort (skills + skill gear), you can get similar spell power, if you spend points in a non-caster tree (like your racial tree), you lose spell power in proportion to the points you spent. Overall, spell power is a bit hard to directly compare, but I agree with the OP. Generally a bit nerfed.

    Those come to mind quickly.

    As to some buffs:

    Pure tempest rangers can now hit notably faster.

    Druids get SLAs: Produce Flame, Creeping Cold, Call Lightning, Word of Balance (90s cd), Sunburst (2m cd), Storm of Vengance (2m cd). The first 3 have short cooldowns. Storm of Vengeance is still nice, even with the long cooldown.

    Clerics get SLAs. Don't recall them all. They include some decent ones, including a new ability that'll be similar to lightning bolt and holy smite. They can also select the "dark" path, but those SLAs are not as good, overall.

    Monks and Rogues can make Sireth about as strong as an eSoS, and they get some cool q-staff abilities to compliment it.

    Monks can add threat range to kamas, shortswords, and shuriken. Again, you can actually make some potent kama / shortsword builds with the right named items.

    FvS gain some +MCL. They also get a nifty enhancement for getting temporary sp. Against groups, you can get a high chance to get 10 temp sp per spell cast on them.

    Lots of 'meh' short cool down / small bonus effect attacks.

  15. #15
    Community Member RTFM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    The lack of uproar over nerfs that appear to be going live in the pass tells me that people are distracted or not realizing the full extent of them, or not reading lam forums.
    Well here are some of the reasons why you see a lack of uproar on the forums:

    1. The enhancement pass is so bad, many vets have already quit over it already or have gone on extended leave from the game, or have moved to running some raids and that's about it. The expectation from many is they will quit over this anyway.

    2. The new forum interface, being poorly implemented and forcing people to use their real account name or make a new account just for forums, caused a lot of vets and people who previously contributed to the forums to "give up" and just quit reading and/or posting on forums.

    3. Turbine coming out and saying people are going to lose ED XP upon TR in the future. I myself would love to max out a couple of my alts ED but instead just play less because don't want to waste time because if they actually implement that...I will take a very long extended break from DDO. I know more people that will quit over this moronic idea if its implemented than anything else I have seen up for change. Look at all the uproar this created on the forums and what it achieved....nothing.

    4. Bugs never get fixed no matter how much people complain on the forums. Look at the official "known issues" list as compared to what we all really know all the known issuese list are and that massive list that someone compiled a while back. Its like the official list a the fingernail on the pinky of the hand of all real known issues out there. It reminds me of a person who has not bathed for a week but insists he smells good because he can't smell himself. How long do we have to see the awkward selection window AFTER departing from the gudild ship? What about the UMD bug? I mean the list goes on and on and there is no interest to actually improve the player experience, the only interests are to keep new things to dangle and extract cash from, slow players down, nerf the strongest builds, make clerics a healing stick and that's it.

    5. The entire enhancement pass is like a massive bait and switch exercise. The whole point of it we were told was to finish off the PrE that were missing and people wanted (like War Priest), instead we get nerf's across the board, still missing PrE's that were most wanted, and clerics that are forced even more into the healing stick corner.
    Last edited by RTFM; 07-04-2013 at 01:28 AM.
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  16. #16
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Ironclans_evil_twin;5033711]The lack of uproar over nerfs that appear to be going live in the pass tells me that people are distracted or not realizing the full extent of them, or not reading lam forums.

    It strikes me that we need a compilation of all the nerfs in the enhancement pass so people wont be so blind sided by them I'm afraid that a lot of people tune out threads about the pass because of the conflicting opinions and arguing. Well most nerfs are objectively measurable. So without any ranting or raving here are the ones I have seen just looking over my own "areas of interest". Other people are more tuned in to other classes and playstyles, please respond and add the nerfs you see. Please make as sure as possible that they are an objective nerf and not a lateral change. I'm going to list them with minimal commentary and update this list as needed. Please don't argue about what balanced or unbalanced. If you think something is not a nerf say so, but please refrain from getting into arguments and derailing the thread.



    [LIST=1][*]many characters lose 20 to 80hps ( - Toughness enhancements + Heroic durability 5hp increases at class level 5, 10 etc.)

    Plenty of classes gained HP in this, and others lost a tiny bit. If you really took all 80hp from enhancements, one would wonder what the heck you built.
    [*]Lore Items give massively lowered spell crit improvements (3% for greater lore it appears)[*]Spell crits overall lose give or take 10% and lots of multiplier (+5% from magic training if your class gets that up to +6% from New enhancement "AP spent/Core abilities" best case, -10% from old enhancement lines -7% to -12% lore item nerf)[*]All Spell Power losses 20 to 80 (exact break down left out due to the dozens of ways multiclassing can add spell power that will no longer be possible, and the many ways the new skills and AP spent in tree will add spell power, but not nearly as much as is being lost)[*]Rangers no longer have a devotion line, or positive spell power booster

    Right, because the Heal skill does nothing now.
    [*]Paladins no longer have a devotion line or positive spell power booster

    Same as Ranger, but also every point spent in the DOS tree grants devotion spellpower. Potential net loss is even less.
    [*]Bard spell singers mana proc reduced[*]Barbarians lose X2 criticals from current Frenzied PrE [*]Stalwart's can no longer be TWF or THF, must equip a shield to get PrE/Stance benefits

    Complete and utter malarkey. I hate this concept no matter how much I may potentially like S&B on my fighter.
    [*]Paladin DOS can no longer be TWF or THF, must equip a shield to get PrE/Stance benefits

    Granted Fighters are more powerful than Paladins, I still feel the same. There should be a double boost for equipping a shield.
    [*]Sword and Board no longer gets 20 passive PRR bonus from the defender PrE's just for equipping a shield (instead shield use is mandatory so they took the incentive bonus PRR away)

    Why? Q_Q
    [*]Cleric lose Divine Might line[*]Humans pay far more for healing amp

    Being a hamp *****, I despise this. Though I potentially gain strength out of it, so I'm not sure yet. Can't get on Lama to find out.
    [*]Dwarves no longer have Faith mana lines

    My roommate is gonna be angry.
    [*]Most Dodge items just got a useless affix as only the highest applies and the lower numbers do not stack, to compensate they have doubled all dodge bonuses (4% is now 8%) but this still nerfs a lot of formerly useful gear.

    Really? Because now being able to have 1 item to cover it instead of 2-4 is a nerf. This is a major buff, do NOT consider this a nerf. If you wear fullplate this is a major buff, and you lose nothing from this change. A LOT of old items get screwed each update, why is this any different? They ask for an ESOS killer each update already.
    [*]Fighters lose extra action boost line

    /angryface
    [*]Fighters lose Tactics DC's (used to be a part of Kensei PrE and a generic line, now only just part of Kensei)

    /anotherangryface
    [*] FvS's lose weapon specialization

    Ok yeah this sucks. I mostly hate all changes made to FVS for the last 4 updates. Ever since I made one, I've been getting angrier every time.
    [*] Void strike does not have off-hand procs

    This is kinda sucky. Granted, I don't have a pure monk to find out how sucky.
    [*] The current amount of monk-healing amp, previously available to all lvl 12 monks is only available to a lvl 20 pure shintao monk w/ shintao capstone, so subtract 10-20% healing amp

    Oh you poor baby
    [*] Monk Dance of the water strider no longer exists

    This one actually sucks. That was a cool ability to watch.
    [*] ToD sets no longer recognized PREs. This nets a loss of STR / CON for some barbs, a loss -2 MCL for sorcs, DR breaking from light monks, etc

    This should be a bug. I can imagine that at some point (I'm an optimist shut your face) this will be fixed and linked to Core abilites or class level.
    [*] Sorcerers no longer have access to Scroll Mastery or Force Criticals[*] Sorcerers are now completely locked out of enhancements for their opposition school[*] Wizard archmages no longer have a secondary set of SLAs - though they can get the PM SLAs in addition to one school of AM SLAs[*] Monks can no longer have Void Strike 4 and Touch of Death.

    WHAT????? No TOD? That's ****, GIVE IT BACK NAOW!! And I'm actually totally serious here, that was an awesome ability.
    [*] Void Strike 4 now costs 15 ki, instead of 5. Though the damage increased from 8d4 to 10d6. Still a nerf to me, since the insta-kill was the main use.

    And I gain Ki like a mofo on my partial monk.
    [*] Sword and Board also lose 75% threat from equipping a shield (in addition to the loss of 20 PRR, that is to say: Defender PrE now gives HALF the PRR and +Threat

    All this is malarkey. I had enough problems keeping aggro, this isn't gonna be fixed by adding in the complete kensai tree on top of what I have for stalwart. I will say hey I'm gaining hopefully about 10-12 str out of it, plus a ton of other kensai stuff but it's still ****. How am I supposed to keep aggro against that idiot barb who thinks he's a tank when in all reality he's a resource dump?
    Last edited by Nightmanis; 07-06-2013 at 04:22 AM.

  17. #17
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    WHAT????? No TOD? That's ****, GIVE IT BACK NAOW!! And I'm actually totally serious here, that was an awesome ability.
    ToD is still there, but it is a tier 5 ability on the Ninja Spy tree, and Void 4 is a tier 5 ability on Henshin Mystic tree. So you can't have both on the same character at the same time.

    Just clarifying because the line is confusing and you might had thought that both attacks were scrapped.
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    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  18. #18
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    ...
    While I cannot answer many of the other points, I'm going to point out a few things that I think are missed, misunderstood or just wrong as well as what I agree with as it concerns Paladins that are DoS based converting to the new system...
    [*]All Spell Power losses 20 to 80 (exact break down left out due to the dozens of ways multiclassing can add spell power that will no longer be possible, and the many ways the new skills and AP spent in tree will add spell power, but not nearly as much as is being lost)
    [*]Paladins no longer have a devotion line or positive spell power booster

    While Paladins do not have a Devotion line that is the 20/40/60/80 as on live. Paladins still benefit from additional Positive Energy (Healing) through 2 new sources. 1) Defender Line Points spent and 2) the Heal Skill

    For me I did not expend 10 AP for the full line but on live settled for spending only 3 AP for 40. Trading out my Leviks Bracers which were only being used at level 20+ for Healing Amp 20% for Convalescent +20% with +15 Healing and now with my modest
    wisdom score of 20 I have a base heal skill of 27 (no points spent in healing skill)

    Net Gain for my build of 50 Positive Energy.
    [*]Sword and Board no longer gets 20 passive PRR bonus from the defender PrE's just for equipping a shield (instead shield use is mandatory so they took the incentive bonus PRR away)

    I agree that there is a loss of the +20 passive PRR for equipping a shield. The trade off is now Defender stance grants up to +15 PRR.

    For Sacred Defense Shield use is not mandatory. This mandatory shield use seems to be limited to the Fighter Defender line.
    [*]Humans pay far more for healing amp

    Not just humans, but Half-Elves as well. For a Paladin, especially a defensive build the Racials are more expensive to include.
    [*]Most Dodge items just got a useless affix as only the highest applies and the lower numbers do not stack, to compensate they have doubled all dodge bonuses (4% is now 8%) but this still nerfs a lot of formerly useful gear.

    I actually feel that this is a net positive. They are adding in 10% dodge Items and even if you had a gear setup that had the 4-3-2-1 for 10% dodge you in theory have gained up to 3 gear slots back for offense or defensive purposes. For me it makes my two old +3 dodge Items more attractive as +6% dodge since they are in different slots, which means I can optimize my gear setup for different situations.


    [*] ToD sets no longer recognized PREs. This nets a loss of STR / CON for some barbs, a loss -2 MCL for sorcs, DR breaking from light monks, etc

    Agree that losing the ToD sets will hurt some builds. But on the flip side for me it means I am no longer tied to building around the Belt and Ring that with every release seems to be losing more and more of its benefits to other consolidation items. Currently I'm using the DoS set on Live and only benifiting from the Insight/Exceptional bonuses of the Ring, GFL of the Belt and the AC bonus of the Set. Now I can consider other options such as the Extra hand belt or underdark rings.
    [*] Sword and Board also lose 75% threat from equipping a shield (in addition to the loss of 20 PRR, that is to say: Defender PrE now gives HALF the PRR and +Threat

    You are right using a Shield for the Defender Stance no longer effects Threat bonuses. Now you get these bonuses when not using a shield.

    50% from Sacred Stance
    25%/50%/75% Inciting Defense appears to be written in language that indicates it stacks. If it does that would be 125% Threat while in stance without a shield.

    The problem with this change in Threat is that those who choose DoS and don't want agro it will be harder on them.


    Things not mentioned that I'm still not happy about.

    Divine Might and Strong Defense not stacking to me is an issue. For me one of the benefits of Divine Might was using Turn Undeads, otherwise they were just sitting there 99.9% of the time.

    Defender Capstone ability is a glorified Improved Die Hard/Self Divine Intervention ability for a build that will NOT need it most of the time. It is also an ability that must be activated to be used when it has no benefit other than expending 2 turns if you fall to 0 but less than -50 HP. The problem is that there is nothing really to spend Turn Undead on so the likelihood of having 2 TUs to spend is rather high - except in cases where you suffered charisma damage.


    One nice adjustment on the Sacred Defender Tree is that the MDB Armor bonus is no longer Heavy/Medium with no benefit to light. It is now a flat +3 MDB for Armor. Being on the first tier makes it very accessible to those that planned on using other trees more - Thus improving how much Dodge they can benefit from even if not going for AC.

    ==================================================
    As I'm experimenting more I'm actually warming up more to the Paladin changes, they were drastic and I'm still re-tooling to make up for Weapons of Good no longer being available as I don't consider US ED ability Purify Weapons an option except for Boss fights, but I'm still examining this, especially since there really is no need to have Endless Turning as the only two things I can use turns on now are Turn Undead and Glorious Stand (30 seconds with 5 minute cooldown) There are very few quests were there will be 60+ minutes between Shrines.

    Sacred Defender Abilities I think should be reconsidered/reworked/replaced


    Capstone - +40 to Incap limit and Expend of two turns for 250 Heal

    Spellshield Aura = +1/2/3 Sacred bonus to Spell Resistance - If a +3 on top of Spell resistance spell mattered maybe, but as it stands even on Epic Normal it wouldn't make a difference

    Instinctive Defense - reduced damage while helpless

    Defensive Smiting - Temporary HP on Smite/Exalted Smite - When you have between 5 to 7 of these 50 Temporary HP for 1 minute will not be noticed or even game changing. As a Tier 5 ability it feels thrown in and way underpowered for its intended purpose.

    ================================================== =================
    Last edited by Enoach; 07-04-2013 at 01:48 PM.

  19. #19
    Community Member PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    many characters lose 20 to 80hps ( - Toughness enhancements + Heroic durability 5hp increases at class level 5, 10 etc.)

    Apparently you can't do arithmetic. The increase to heroic durability adds a total of 20 hp, which EXACTLY EQUALS the existing toughness enhancements available to Artificer, Bard, Cleric, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard, and Sorcerer without requiring you to take the Toughness feat. Toughness feat still grants exactly the same number of hp. The classes and race that currently get extra toughness enhancements all have enhancements that also grant HP. Basically what has happened is that you get a feat back if you want it.

    Lore Items give massively lowered spell crit improvements (3% for greater lore it appears)

    The Mental Toughness feats now add spell crit. They have also fixed the goofy way spell crit was stacking before so your percentage of actual crits should be about the same.

    All Spell Power losses 20 to 80 (exact break down left out due to the dozens of ways multiclassing can add spell power that will no longer be possible, and the many ways the new skills and AP spent in tree will add spell power, but not nearly as much as is being lost)

    My test characters actually GAINED a significant portion of spellpower over my live versions PARTICULARLY in areas where I didn't choose to invest due to lack of AP.

    Humans pay far more for healing amp

    2 AP per rank for 3 ranks = 6 ap versus live which is 2/4/6 for a total of 10 ap. Not sure how 6 is MORE than 10. They do have pre-reqs with the new stuff, but once the core racials are unlocked you can get almost all of the pre-req investment

    Dwarves no longer have Faith mana lines

    Dwarves now GET the ability to use con for damage with dwarf weapons. Losing or gaining a specific ability may or may not actually qualify as a "nerf"--you could take away 99% of the abilities and still have it be a net GAIN if the remaining one ability was boosted enough.

    Most Dodge items just got a useless affix as only the highest applies and the lower numbers do not stack, to compensate they have doubled all dodge bonuses (4% is now 8%) but this still nerfs a lot of formerly useful gear.

    Most of the items that have dodge bonuses of less than 4% are overall such **** that it's not worth giving up a gear slot solely to get 1% extra dodge. I'm sure TONS of people were using the Staff of Natt Gann to get that rare 1% dodge . . . oh, wait. As it is, the 8% bonus you can get from a SINGLE dodge item is only 2% worse than the VERY BEST bonus you could get prior to that, which was 1% + 2% +3% +4%, i.e. 10%. All the items in the game that give 1% or 2% dodge are horrible low-level items that are worthless at epic levels anyway, so basically if dodge is your thing you are gaining the ability to ditch a ton of gear that SUCKS. Many, many prestige paths are also gaining dodge bonuses that previously did not exist. Every test character I've made has MORE dodge now than they did prior to the change.

    Monk Dance of the water strider no longer exists

    Since it didn't work on half the water in the game and was only actually a USEFUL ability in one raid (and then only if your ice-wanding partner screwed up and died), who cares.

    ToD sets no longer recognized PREs. This nets a loss of STR / CON for some barbs, a loss -2 MCL for sorcs, DR breaking from light monks, etc

    ToD sets are no longer endgame gear.

    Sorcerers no longer have access to Scroll Mastery or Force Criticals

    3% crit from Mental Toughness feats on *all* spells.

    Sorcerers are now completely locked out of enhancements for their opposition school

    Since investing in your "opposition" element is a waste of points anyway, who cares. You shouldn't even be wasting spell slots on ANYTHING in that damage type.

    Wizard archmages no longer have a secondary set of SLAs - though they can get the PM SLAs in addition to one school of AM SLAs

    The non-force SLA's are **** anyway. You're better off keeping your SP.

    Monks can no longer have Void Strike 4 and Touch of Death.

    You don't need 9 levels of Monk to get ToD now, either.

    Elven Fluidity no longer effects(sic) shields ASF

    Considering it cost TEN ENHANCEMENT POINTS to get a mere 10% reduction before, who cares. There are plenty of caster shields and other offhand items with no ASF anyway and plenty of items that reduce ASF otherwise.

    Animal form druids get no spell power including no devotion

    They get as much as they invest in spellcraft. You mean they don't get any from ENHANCEMENTS. But the caster druid prestige doesn't get much either because almost everything in that tree is dreadful. If you want spellpower enhancements on a druid, your best bet is to take 2 levels of Monk and invest heavily in Shintao and Henshin Mystic, which will get you bonus positive, fire, and force spellpower in addition to a *colossal* wad of bonus PRR for absolutely no loss since animal form druids don't proc offhand attacks anyway. Absolute worst-case scenario it's a loss of MAYBE 40 spellpower, hardly noticeable because Druids don't have big single-whammy spells that benefit highly from multiplicative effects like spellpower.

    Iron Defender Companion line, for non-Arti's has been removed

    This is only a nerf if you consider it powerful to grief people with grease. In which case you can get a clickie.

  20. #20
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    -a bunch of potential posatives about the new enhancements-
    Um, Blondy? I think you missed the premise of the thread... There's only supposed to be complaints about the evil nerfs the pass has to offer, no sunshine or rainbows plz...
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

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