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  1. #81
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Um also things like the titans grip clickie? and there are some more items it seems like there are more ways to up str via stacking than dex and other abilities. But I like how they gave dex a boost.
    Yup my list wasn't exhaustive by any means it was just top of my head. Yeah dex got a boost but it's nothing to brag about imo because it's still not optimal for dps. I'm not opposed to dex damage ext and dex builds getting a boost but acting like it's suddenly not a second rate dps option doesn't work for me because the math is that it is still a lower dps option, and when discussing changes like this math is the only thing that matters.

  2. #82
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    I'm extremely concerned about the impact these changes will have on my builds. I have around 15 characters that I play, and it seems that most of them will be rendered more or less ineffective because of these changes.

    To get around the nerfs that Turbine is forcing on my characters I will then have to TR my characters - since in most cases the level split they are now will nolonger be viable after enh pass. Yay?

    Not.

    This enhancement pass has me seriously worried.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    The lack of uproar over nerfs that appear to be going live in the pass tells me that people are distracted or not realizing the full extent of them, or not reading lam forums.
    Well here are some of the reasons why you see a lack of uproar on the forums:

    1. The enhancement pass is so bad, many vets have already quit over it already or have gone on extended leave from the game, or have moved to running some raids and that's about it. The expectation from many is they will quit over this anyway.

    2. The new forum interface, being poorly implemented and forcing people to use their real account name or make a new account just for forums, caused a lot of vets and people who previously contributed to the forums to "give up" and just quit reading and/or posting on forums.

    3. Turbine coming out and saying people are going to lose ED XP upon TR in the future. I myself would love to max out a couple of my alts ED but instead just play less because don't want to waste time because if they actually implement that...I will take a very long extended break from DDO. I know more people that will quit over this moronic idea if its implemented than anything else I have seen up for change. Look at all the uproar this created on the forums and what it achieved....nothing.

    4. Bugs never get fixed no matter how much people complain on the forums. Look at the official "known issues" list as compared to what we all really know all the known issuese list are and that massive list that someone compiled a while back. Its like the official list a the fingernail on the pinky of the hand of all real known issues out there. It reminds me of a person who has not bathed for a week but insists he smells good because he can't smell himself. How long do we have to see the awkward selection window AFTER departing from the gudild ship? What about the UMD bug? I mean the list goes on and on and there is no interest to actually improve the player experience, the only interests are to keep new things to dangle and extract cash from, slow players down, nerf the strongest builds, make clerics a healing stick and that's it.

    5. The entire enhancement pass is like a massive bait and switch exercise. The whole point of it we were told was to finish off the PrE that were missing and people wanted (like War Priest), instead we get nerf's across the board, still missing PrE's that were most wanted, and clerics that are forced even more into the healing stick corner.
    Last edited by RTFM; 07-04-2013 at 01:28 AM.
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  4. #84
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    There is a basic logical problem at work above.

    It goes something like the following...

    * those who cared about their builds a lot already bothered building toons which were not gimps
    * those who did not care so much have more gimps
    * those who did not care so much before have a lot of variety of gimps
    * only some of the variety of gimps get buffed
    * So only a portion of those who did not care so much before get a buff while those who did get a nerf.
    * So those who care most about it get the most pain while those who care least about it get some benefits...but only a fraction of those..
    I think this may be a semantic problem regarding the word "gimp".

    Some consider a "gimp" to be a character who's build and prestige class(es) are naturally at a disadvantage. For example, thief acrobats and repeater rogues are often (or were often) referred to as gimps. The gimp label had nothing to do with the time or thought involved with it's creation, nor the gearing of it. It was simply a statement on the effectiveness of certain builds.

    A person like myself, who has 13 characters, enjoys variety, and reaps most of his enjoyment from the creation and experimentation process (which means an absolute aversion to following builds), has plenty of builds that will benefit from the update. I also have plenty that will have to be set aside, although many have already been set aside due to the epic levels and destinies requiring a narrowing down of focus due to time demands.

    I can only assume, and sorry if I'm wrong droid, that droid was referring to gimps as character classes using prestiges that currently receive less love or are incomplete, not characters that were in some way half-assed. So I suspect that the disagreement here is semantic.

  5. #85
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranel12 View Post
    Just want to say that the DoS stance works in THF and TwF fighting the same should be with the fighter stance.
    Just tested on Lammania. Stalwart requires sword and board for stance, as description implies, Defender Pally stance does not, as the description implies.

    Good catch though, number 10 needs to be removed from the original post in this thread.

    This has nothing to do with the quoted comment, but I certainly hope that the information being posted in this thread and the strong opinions relating to the new mechanics have been lamannia tested and researched and aren't just being pulled from the breeze to support specific agendas.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 07-04-2013 at 01:54 AM.

  6. #86
    Community Member Alisonique's Avatar
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    When all is said and done , I shall continue to play. It will be a different game to a degree, and I am sure that some folk will leave, and thats a shame, but many will stay and new folk will join, its the way of things. I look forward to seeing the actual implementation of the pass and seeing if Turbine have listened to folk, as they said that was what the second viewing was for. Leave the game? why, because it changes things? very odd.

  7. #87
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Ironclans_evil_twin;5033711]The lack of uproar over nerfs that appear to be going live in the pass tells me that people are distracted or not realizing the full extent of them, or not reading lam forums.

    It strikes me that we need a compilation of all the nerfs in the enhancement pass so people wont be so blind sided by them I'm afraid that a lot of people tune out threads about the pass because of the conflicting opinions and arguing. Well most nerfs are objectively measurable. So without any ranting or raving here are the ones I have seen just looking over my own "areas of interest". Other people are more tuned in to other classes and playstyles, please respond and add the nerfs you see. Please make as sure as possible that they are an objective nerf and not a lateral change. I'm going to list them with minimal commentary and update this list as needed. Please don't argue about what balanced or unbalanced. If you think something is not a nerf say so, but please refrain from getting into arguments and derailing the thread.



    [LIST=1][*]many characters lose 20 to 80hps ( - Toughness enhancements + Heroic durability 5hp increases at class level 5, 10 etc.)

    Plenty of classes gained HP in this, and others lost a tiny bit. If you really took all 80hp from enhancements, one would wonder what the heck you built.
    [*]Lore Items give massively lowered spell crit improvements (3% for greater lore it appears)[*]Spell crits overall lose give or take 10% and lots of multiplier (+5% from magic training if your class gets that up to +6% from New enhancement "AP spent/Core abilities" best case, -10% from old enhancement lines -7% to -12% lore item nerf)[*]All Spell Power losses 20 to 80 (exact break down left out due to the dozens of ways multiclassing can add spell power that will no longer be possible, and the many ways the new skills and AP spent in tree will add spell power, but not nearly as much as is being lost)[*]Rangers no longer have a devotion line, or positive spell power booster

    Right, because the Heal skill does nothing now.
    [*]Paladins no longer have a devotion line or positive spell power booster

    Same as Ranger, but also every point spent in the DOS tree grants devotion spellpower. Potential net loss is even less.
    [*]Bard spell singers mana proc reduced[*]Barbarians lose X2 criticals from current Frenzied PrE [*]Stalwart's can no longer be TWF or THF, must equip a shield to get PrE/Stance benefits

    Complete and utter malarkey. I hate this concept no matter how much I may potentially like S&B on my fighter.
    [*]Paladin DOS can no longer be TWF or THF, must equip a shield to get PrE/Stance benefits

    Granted Fighters are more powerful than Paladins, I still feel the same. There should be a double boost for equipping a shield.
    [*]Sword and Board no longer gets 20 passive PRR bonus from the defender PrE's just for equipping a shield (instead shield use is mandatory so they took the incentive bonus PRR away)

    Why? Q_Q
    [*]Cleric lose Divine Might line[*]Humans pay far more for healing amp

    Being a hamp *****, I despise this. Though I potentially gain strength out of it, so I'm not sure yet. Can't get on Lama to find out.
    [*]Dwarves no longer have Faith mana lines

    My roommate is gonna be angry.
    [*]Most Dodge items just got a useless affix as only the highest applies and the lower numbers do not stack, to compensate they have doubled all dodge bonuses (4% is now 8%) but this still nerfs a lot of formerly useful gear.

    Really? Because now being able to have 1 item to cover it instead of 2-4 is a nerf. This is a major buff, do NOT consider this a nerf. If you wear fullplate this is a major buff, and you lose nothing from this change. A LOT of old items get screwed each update, why is this any different? They ask for an ESOS killer each update already.
    [*]Fighters lose extra action boost line

    /angryface
    [*]Fighters lose Tactics DC's (used to be a part of Kensei PrE and a generic line, now only just part of Kensei)

    /anotherangryface
    [*] FvS's lose weapon specialization

    Ok yeah this sucks. I mostly hate all changes made to FVS for the last 4 updates. Ever since I made one, I've been getting angrier every time.
    [*] Void strike does not have off-hand procs

    This is kinda sucky. Granted, I don't have a pure monk to find out how sucky.
    [*] The current amount of monk-healing amp, previously available to all lvl 12 monks is only available to a lvl 20 pure shintao monk w/ shintao capstone, so subtract 10-20% healing amp

    Oh you poor baby
    [*] Monk Dance of the water strider no longer exists

    This one actually sucks. That was a cool ability to watch.
    [*] ToD sets no longer recognized PREs. This nets a loss of STR / CON for some barbs, a loss -2 MCL for sorcs, DR breaking from light monks, etc

    This should be a bug. I can imagine that at some point (I'm an optimist shut your face) this will be fixed and linked to Core abilites or class level.
    [*] Sorcerers no longer have access to Scroll Mastery or Force Criticals[*] Sorcerers are now completely locked out of enhancements for their opposition school[*] Wizard archmages no longer have a secondary set of SLAs - though they can get the PM SLAs in addition to one school of AM SLAs[*] Monks can no longer have Void Strike 4 and Touch of Death.

    WHAT????? No TOD? That's ****, GIVE IT BACK NAOW!! And I'm actually totally serious here, that was an awesome ability.
    [*] Void Strike 4 now costs 15 ki, instead of 5. Though the damage increased from 8d4 to 10d6. Still a nerf to me, since the insta-kill was the main use.

    And I gain Ki like a mofo on my partial monk.
    [*] Sword and Board also lose 75% threat from equipping a shield (in addition to the loss of 20 PRR, that is to say: Defender PrE now gives HALF the PRR and +Threat

    All this is malarkey. I had enough problems keeping aggro, this isn't gonna be fixed by adding in the complete kensai tree on top of what I have for stalwart. I will say hey I'm gaining hopefully about 10-12 str out of it, plus a ton of other kensai stuff but it's still ****. How am I supposed to keep aggro against that idiot barb who thinks he's a tank when in all reality he's a resource dump?
    Last edited by Nightmanis; 07-06-2013 at 04:22 AM.

  8. #88
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    WHAT????? No TOD? That's ****, GIVE IT BACK NAOW!! And I'm actually totally serious here, that was an awesome ability.
    ToD is still there, but it is a tier 5 ability on the Ninja Spy tree, and Void 4 is a tier 5 ability on Henshin Mystic tree. So you can't have both on the same character at the same time.

    Just clarifying because the line is confusing and you might had thought that both attacks were scrapped.
    Main: Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist [<o>]

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  9. #89
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    #10 and #16 are false (action boosts, DOS sword and board).

    Many people believe #15 (dodge bonuses) to be a buff rather than a nerf.

    The one about human healing amp costing a lot more is questionable (#13 if memory serves). 3 tiers of human healing amp takes 12 points now. It costs 17 for healing amp in the new system only if there is absolutely nothing you would have taken on the way if you had a choice. The overwhelming majority of humans, regardless of class or build, take at least Human Adaptability 1 for the boost in their prime stat. It's a must in literally any build you can think of. So now we are looking at a cost of 14 points in the current system to get human adaptability 1 + healing amp 3, compared to 17 in the new one to get them. That's a difference, but not a big one, and it's only more in the new system if you really didn't want to have to take enhancements that up your dragonmarks, grant a human versatility boost, grant adaptability 2, grant a fighting style boost, or boosts your stats while using an action boost. If all that stuff is just so terrible seeming that you would much rather skip it, then you are looking at a difference of 14 and 17, which isn't much. And frankly I find that scenario unlikely.

    More than half of my characters are humans and they will all save enhancement points on their healing amp overall.

  10. #90
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 350zguy View Post
    Monk Dance of the water strider no longer exists.

    I'm not sure if I would call that a nerf. LOL

    It rules harbor...
    I get you I do, but it is a nerf, as limited as it was people who run abbot a lot will tell you that it had some nice utility. IMO it was an ability that needed a more fleshed out game world, and more variety in quests to make useful, not simple removal.

  11. #91
    Community Member tralfaz81's Avatar
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    Not sure if it's been mentioned but you can add a nerf to Human (and probably any other race) Racial Stat Enhancements. You get to add one point to your stats, but if I understand what it says correctly, any other stats add ONLY work when you're using a Racial Boost Enhancements clickie. You can add, fairly cheaply, 4 points to your strength but you'll only see them for 20 seconds at a time when you hit that clickie.
    "Shut up and die like a wizard"

  12. #92
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    A lot of good points were brought up in the original post of this thread. Things like healing spell power in melee lines, Kensai tactical DCs, toughness hp, and sword and board requirements in defensive stances are, in my opinion, legitimate concerns. I would like to see these and more things change before the release. I'm glad these complaints are being voiced, and I hope they result in alterations.

    To be fair, I will also express my positive feelings about things like Spellsingers getting Heal at 20, the new slaying arrows and sniper shot in fury, Pally splash options when it comes to healing amp and tactical DCs (charisma mod to str on tier 2), reducing dragonmark feat requirements, all 3 Ranger trees, the Kensai tier 5 centering ability, thief acrobats becoming legit, and the ability to more easily and effectively make self healing characters because of the highest tree tiers only needing 5 levels in a class, making it easier to take a lot of levels in a self healing class then splash in a few levels of something else while also doing good DPS.

    To summarize, I hope we can be a little less vitriolic and a little more open minded in these discussions. I'm sure we can all juggle more than one idea or viewpoint in our heads, so let's not allow personal agendas to make us look like simpletons.
    What an excellent post, and I agree; we spend too much time polarizing and characterizing the "other side" and not enough time recognizing that nothing is so simple as black and white. This happens in every thread on every forum. We have people who only see 100% sunshine and roses probably, only because they don't want "cracks in their armor", and people who likewise not wanting to have any "vulnerability" only see doom and gloom.

    I am not trying to incite "the usual haters" on the contrary I am a known "apologist" (there's that characterization again) I do want people WHO ARE UNFAMILIAR WITH THE CHANGES THAT ARE COMING, to find out, and speak up when they do see something that they don't want. This is not a either or situation, it's not a light switch to be flicked on or off, it's far more like a tug of war. It's about aggregates and percentages and getting their attention, it's what they "cherrish" versus what we "hate hate hate" they will change or give up on some things, the low hanging fruit or the borderline things that weren't considered that vital by Turbine. Getting some improvements. It's a war full of battles, not a battle with a single win/loss condition.

    Despite all the jaded expectancy to the contrary Turbine has and will make changes when enough people "do not want"...

    I can point to the old TWF nerf thread where Eladrin added "double strike" directly and conversationally following DPS loss concerns. The original nerf was WAY harsher, along the lines of 30% DPS loss, that got turned into about 8-12%. Also the "Intimitank" nerf where sword and Board was buffed (not enough) by Eladrin following concerns that a defensive character will get such little aggro that there will be no point in wearing a shield and using Intim... as nothing much will bother to attack you. This resulted in: Both shield feats getting nicely reworked, the shield bashing feat that's been broken since inception, the changes to Defender PrE's that gave bonus PRR and +threat for simply wearing a shield... Glancing blows for Bastard Swords and Daxes... And more recently we have a shiny new and not bad Cleric caster PrE tree in the preview among other changes that WERE asked for.

    So I don't want to hear how they wont change anything: that is wrong and I've just shown you objective proof of that. Will they change EVERYTHING? No of course not, but then that's why I'm posting this, speak up if you don't like something. It may or may not work, but pretending they never listen at all is just another way to polarize the discussion. And worse than that it reduces the "man power" on the players side in this "tug of war".

  13. #93
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    I don't get OP's 9-10 DOS and SD losing all the stance prestige benefits when they don't have a shield equipped most SD's and DOS that I know use 2wf and 2hf most of the time when dps is needed and use shields for tanking or when they need the extra defenses, there are some who S&B all the time using bastard swords but most i would know would either quit, tr, or just bench that toon instead of moving to that.
    Let see if I can clarify: you used to get 20PRR and +75% threat for simply equipping a shield, and then another 20 PRR and +75% threat for using the "stance" Total: 40PRR and 150% threat. They halved that. Now you Only get 20PRR and 75% threat and it costs on the order of 40 AP's to get that.

    On the THF or TWF for Stalwarts you used to be able to enjoy the "stance" benefits of +6 STR and +6 CON +75% threat and +20PRR while using a great axe or swinging two khopeshes. Not anymore, unequipping your shield knocks you out of stance.

    EDIT: it's come to my attention that this no longer is the case for Paladin defender PrE but is the case for Stalwart. Still under the assumption that neither Stalwart or Pali Defender get the bonus 20PRR and 75% threat "when equipping a shield" that used to be a part of the PrE.
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 07-04-2013 at 01:41 PM.

  14. #94
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    #10 and #16 are false (action boosts, DOS sword and board).

    Many people believe #15 (dodge bonuses) to be a buff rather than a nerf.
    Fixed #10 (note the list reorders automatically so for anyone just catching up #10 used to refer to DOS getting knocked out of stance when unequipping a shield which was wrong. #10 is no longer incorrect)

    #16 (now #15) You see 5 extra action boosts available to fighters? If so I will correct.

    #15 (now #14) The wording is "Most Dodge items" not "the dodge ability" this is correct and will stay
    I see named items that took hideous soul crushing grinds to get that were mostly sought after for their dodge bonus fitting perfectly with other dodge gear to make up the puzzle, that are now if not completely trash, are massively reduced in utility. Either way most dodge items were nerfed. Wether you braved the risk of stabbing your own eyes out to craft them or find them or not. Those items are less usefull by definition as they now have affixes that are redundant

    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    then you are looking at a difference of 14 and 17, which isn't much. And frankly I find that scenario unlikely.
    I agree in your specific scenario they are only a little more expensive, but that's still a nerf. It is potentially only a minor nerf to someone who didn't need those AP's for something else. Or for someone who loves action boosts.

    Let me tell you my subjective scenario now: I don't use boosts at all, AC boosts, Haste boosts, attack boosts, these are all just "clutter" that can't hold my attention because I focus on repeatable always on DPS and abilities. I can only focus on so many cool down and/or limited use hot bar icons and by habit boosts are my favorite "odd man out" and most easily ignored when a build tends toward "clickie overload". Okay actually I just remembered my almost never played trapper does use Human versatility boosts regularly... so I have one character out of 14. Also if my Barb had survived the suicidal plunge off the Vet status ship when he saw the loss of X2 crits in the pass version of frenzied and the subsequent deletion, he would have used sprint boosts. (however he wasn't human so doesn't matter)

    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    More than half of my characters are humans and they will all save enhancement points on their healing amp overall.
    I'll take your word for it but you can see how this doesn't gibe too well with your own numbers that show there's a best case of 3 AP's extra spending if you wanted boosts that not everyone will care about? 3 AP's... that's a whole X/XX/XXX three tier enhancement branch; or an extra two AP and a 1 AP enhancement you can no longer afford. Not sure how you do that unless you have a best case scenario that's better than the one you presented.
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 07-04-2013 at 01:43 PM.

  15. #95
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    ...
    While I cannot answer many of the other points, I'm going to point out a few things that I think are missed, misunderstood or just wrong as well as what I agree with as it concerns Paladins that are DoS based converting to the new system...
    [*]All Spell Power losses 20 to 80 (exact break down left out due to the dozens of ways multiclassing can add spell power that will no longer be possible, and the many ways the new skills and AP spent in tree will add spell power, but not nearly as much as is being lost)
    [*]Paladins no longer have a devotion line or positive spell power booster

    While Paladins do not have a Devotion line that is the 20/40/60/80 as on live. Paladins still benefit from additional Positive Energy (Healing) through 2 new sources. 1) Defender Line Points spent and 2) the Heal Skill

    For me I did not expend 10 AP for the full line but on live settled for spending only 3 AP for 40. Trading out my Leviks Bracers which were only being used at level 20+ for Healing Amp 20% for Convalescent +20% with +15 Healing and now with my modest
    wisdom score of 20 I have a base heal skill of 27 (no points spent in healing skill)

    Net Gain for my build of 50 Positive Energy.
    [*]Sword and Board no longer gets 20 passive PRR bonus from the defender PrE's just for equipping a shield (instead shield use is mandatory so they took the incentive bonus PRR away)

    I agree that there is a loss of the +20 passive PRR for equipping a shield. The trade off is now Defender stance grants up to +15 PRR.

    For Sacred Defense Shield use is not mandatory. This mandatory shield use seems to be limited to the Fighter Defender line.
    [*]Humans pay far more for healing amp

    Not just humans, but Half-Elves as well. For a Paladin, especially a defensive build the Racials are more expensive to include.
    [*]Most Dodge items just got a useless affix as only the highest applies and the lower numbers do not stack, to compensate they have doubled all dodge bonuses (4% is now 8%) but this still nerfs a lot of formerly useful gear.

    I actually feel that this is a net positive. They are adding in 10% dodge Items and even if you had a gear setup that had the 4-3-2-1 for 10% dodge you in theory have gained up to 3 gear slots back for offense or defensive purposes. For me it makes my two old +3 dodge Items more attractive as +6% dodge since they are in different slots, which means I can optimize my gear setup for different situations.


    [*] ToD sets no longer recognized PREs. This nets a loss of STR / CON for some barbs, a loss -2 MCL for sorcs, DR breaking from light monks, etc

    Agree that losing the ToD sets will hurt some builds. But on the flip side for me it means I am no longer tied to building around the Belt and Ring that with every release seems to be losing more and more of its benefits to other consolidation items. Currently I'm using the DoS set on Live and only benifiting from the Insight/Exceptional bonuses of the Ring, GFL of the Belt and the AC bonus of the Set. Now I can consider other options such as the Extra hand belt or underdark rings.
    [*] Sword and Board also lose 75% threat from equipping a shield (in addition to the loss of 20 PRR, that is to say: Defender PrE now gives HALF the PRR and +Threat

    You are right using a Shield for the Defender Stance no longer effects Threat bonuses. Now you get these bonuses when not using a shield.

    50% from Sacred Stance
    25%/50%/75% Inciting Defense appears to be written in language that indicates it stacks. If it does that would be 125% Threat while in stance without a shield.

    The problem with this change in Threat is that those who choose DoS and don't want agro it will be harder on them.


    Things not mentioned that I'm still not happy about.

    Divine Might and Strong Defense not stacking to me is an issue. For me one of the benefits of Divine Might was using Turn Undeads, otherwise they were just sitting there 99.9% of the time.

    Defender Capstone ability is a glorified Improved Die Hard/Self Divine Intervention ability for a build that will NOT need it most of the time. It is also an ability that must be activated to be used when it has no benefit other than expending 2 turns if you fall to 0 but less than -50 HP. The problem is that there is nothing really to spend Turn Undead on so the likelihood of having 2 TUs to spend is rather high - except in cases where you suffered charisma damage.


    One nice adjustment on the Sacred Defender Tree is that the MDB Armor bonus is no longer Heavy/Medium with no benefit to light. It is now a flat +3 MDB for Armor. Being on the first tier makes it very accessible to those that planned on using other trees more - Thus improving how much Dodge they can benefit from even if not going for AC.

    ==================================================
    As I'm experimenting more I'm actually warming up more to the Paladin changes, they were drastic and I'm still re-tooling to make up for Weapons of Good no longer being available as I don't consider US ED ability Purify Weapons an option except for Boss fights, but I'm still examining this, especially since there really is no need to have Endless Turning as the only two things I can use turns on now are Turn Undead and Glorious Stand (30 seconds with 5 minute cooldown) There are very few quests were there will be 60+ minutes between Shrines.

    Sacred Defender Abilities I think should be reconsidered/reworked/replaced


    Capstone - +40 to Incap limit and Expend of two turns for 250 Heal

    Spellshield Aura = +1/2/3 Sacred bonus to Spell Resistance - If a +3 on top of Spell resistance spell mattered maybe, but as it stands even on Epic Normal it wouldn't make a difference

    Instinctive Defense - reduced damage while helpless

    Defensive Smiting - Temporary HP on Smite/Exalted Smite - When you have between 5 to 7 of these 50 Temporary HP for 1 minute will not be noticed or even game changing. As a Tier 5 ability it feels thrown in and way underpowered for its intended purpose.

    ================================================== =================
    Last edited by Enoach; 07-04-2013 at 01:48 PM.

  16. #96
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    that droid was referring to gimps as character classes using prestiges that currently receive less love or are incomplete, not characters that were in some way half-assed. So I suspect that the disagreement here is semantic.
    Not a semantic issue at all. Just because someone chooses a flavor option on a build that does not work very well currently does not make them less of gimps. It is very clear that they are not the most concerned about the viability of their builds, because if they were they would be running more viable builds currently.
    Proud Recipient of At least 8 Negative Rep From NA Threads.
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  17. #97
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Let see if I can clarify: you used to get 20PRR and +75% threat for simply equipping a shield, and then another 20 PRR and +75% threat for using the "stance" Total: 40PRR and 150% threat. They halved that. Now you Only get 20PRR and 75% threat and it costs on the order of 40 AP's to get that.

    On the THF or TWF for Stalwarts you used to be able to enjoy the "stance" benefits of +6 STR and +6 CON +75% threat and +20PRR while using a great axe or swinging two khopeshes. Not anymore, unequipping your shield knocks you out of stance.

    EDIT: it's come to my attention that this no longer is the case for Paladin defender PrE but is the case for Stalwart. Still under the assumption that neither Stalwart or Pali Defender get the bonus 20PRR and 75% threat "when equipping a shield" that used to be a part of the PrE.
    I've been looking at the enhancements for DOS on Live and Lam

    I now see what you are pointing out.

    The Stance itself gave 25/50/75% threat for being in stance and the PrE had the additional bonus of 75% for using a shield.

    Again my reading of the New enhancements seems to me that the Inciteful Defense 25/50/75% stacks with the 50% of the Stance. So I will agree there appears to be a 25% Threat loss. It is a loss but it is not 1/2 the threat. The big difference is that a shield is no longer required to benefit from the Threat bonus. This is actually a 50% bonus to TWF and THF Threat builds, but is also a detriment to those Defender builds that don't want the agro.
    Last edited by Enoach; 07-04-2013 at 02:15 PM.

  18. #98
    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    The enhancement update is going to happen. This fact needs to be accepted. Those of you who think that you can convince Turbine to scrap it by posting one sided posts or propaganda in order to sway players into starting a mini revolution need to get in touch with reality. They have spent too much time on the new enhancements, and the old system is not user friendly enough for new players. The new system is happening.
    I started playing DDO in December 2009. I had plenty of old-school D&D and AD&D experience, but virtually none (very little) with the 3.0-3.5 rulesets, largely because I tried 3E when it was released, for a little while, and it left a very bad taste in my mouth. Wizards of the Coast basically killed the PnP RPG for me.

    DDO was my very first MMO (aside from a 10-day trial of WoW, which I played for about 3 days before deciding I didn't like that). But I never had a problem understanding the enhancement system or the UI. So...what, are you saying, new players are getting dumber?

    EDIT: OP, sorry for the off-topic.
    All that is wrong with DDO, life, taxes, poltics, religion, music, fast food, education, the criminal justice system, the weather, society, the universe, and previously-discontinued-but-now-on-their-way-back snack cakes, is all the fault of Wizards of the Coast. I know this because Fred told me so, and Mind Flayers are smart.

  19. #99
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    I started playing DDO in December 2009. I had plenty of old-school D&D and AD&D experience, but virtually none (very little) with the 3.0-3.5 rulesets, largely because I tried 3E when it was released, for a little while, and it left a very bad taste in my mouth. Wizards of the Coast basically killed the PnP RPG for me.

    DDO was my very first MMO (aside from a 10-day trial of WoW, which I played for about 3 days before deciding I didn't like that). But I never had a problem understanding the enhancement system or the UI. So...what, are you saying, new players are getting dumber?

    EDIT: OP, sorry for the off-topic.
    If you listen to some forumites and turbine devs new players have a hard time not eating their mice when they sit down in front of their computers.

  20. #100
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    If you listen to some forumites and turbine devs new players have a hard time not eating their mice when they sit down in front of their computers.
    While not a new player myself, I occasionally have trouble defending my mouse or mouse cord from my cats when I sit at the computer

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