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  1. #21
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    This thread is completely worthless without balancing the pluses AND minuses...

    Remember when we only had 4 enhancements like 6 years ago and Turbine completely redid enhancements (there were massive posts of doom back then too)...

    This thread is exactly as worthless as someone back then posting about the few enhancements that were lost with that change, but nothing about the dozen of NEW abilities that we got...

    Thrudh, my dear friend, you have failed to see the point of this thread.

    It is to inspire hate in those very same people that, as the OP has put it;

    "The lack of uproar over nerfs that appear to be going live in the pass tells me that people are distracted or not realizing the full extent of them, or not reading lam forums. "

    Instead of allowing people to form their own opinion based on their own personal experiences with the new enhancements it is to promote hate of the new system from a hateful point of view.

    But if you have a glass is half full outlook on everything then you will only see that everything is half full. Must be a horrible way to live and play a game.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  2. #22
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    This thread is completely worthless without balancing the pluses AND minuses...

    Remember when we only had 4 enhancements like 6 years ago and Turbine completely redid enhancements (there were massive posts of doom back then too)...

    This thread is exactly as worthless as someone back then posting about the few enhancements that were lost with that change, but nothing about the dozen of NEW abilities that we got...
    adding positives to a nerf thread would defeat the purpose, hence the title. however, as some of us pointed out, what one views as a nerf another may call it fair.

  3. #23
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    This thread is completely worthless without balancing the pluses AND minuses...

    Remember when we only had 4 enhancements like 6 years ago and Turbine completely redid enhancements (there were massive posts of doom back then too)...

    This thread is exactly as worthless as someone back then posting about the few enhancements that were lost with that change, but nothing about the dozen of NEW abilities that we got...
    Indeed, with all the evidence I see on lam, the enhancement pass should be quite the NGE experience for DDO - most builds that people have worked to make for the past year and longer is completely being destroyed, but there's NEW options so it's obviously fine. I'm sure the fact that much of our feedback has been ignored is fine - Turbine knows what's best, after all.

    That's the type of attitude that no one can really take seriously...especially when you're asking for everyone to focus on bonuses that don't really exist (for example, my sorc would be getting hit quite hard with the enhancement pass mainly because I TRed out of Shiradi Champion build). People are looking at almost EVERY character suffering....and quite honestly, many of us are leaving over it (I personally don't have DDO installed right now, and am waiting for the enhancement pass/expansion to come to decide ultimately whether or not to cancel my VIP permanently).

    I do intend to still frequent the forums, though...interesting how long people tout the strength of their unsinkable ship right before they hit the iceberg.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  4. #24
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    In defense of the fainboi-propaganda this IS INDEED A LOT OF GOOD in these enhancements.

    But there's also a lot of terrible.

    The terrible should breed more conversation . . . what else is there to say about the good other than "this part rocks" and we've done that.

    The terrible is what needs to be focused on as that is what needs to be addressed.

    you don't fix what ain't broken.

    Fanboi challenge: name me SOMETHING good about Stalwart Defender. Name me some way this entire PRE isn't now a steaming pile of junk.

  5. #25
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Hey OP? You seem to be omitting a few things....

    Point #15, for example. Dodge bonuses from items no longer stack, but the items that currently have dodge bonuses will have those bonuses doubled in magnitude. Not to mention there will be 10% dodge items, too.

  6. #26
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    Hey OP? You seem to be omitting a few things....

    Point #15, for example. Dodge bonuses from items no longer stack, but the items that currently have dodge bonuses will have those bonuses doubled in magnitude. Not to mention there will be 10% dodge items, too.
    because dodge is the new ac and its easier to make dodge work since ac and to hit were too difficult implement properly?

  7. #27
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    Hey OP? You seem to be omitting a few things....

    Point #15, for example. Dodge bonuses from items no longer stack, but the items that currently have dodge bonuses will have those bonuses doubled in magnitude. Not to mention there will be 10% dodge items, too.
    10% dodge is the same as what you can have now (4 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 10). It frees some itemization, but doesn't actually improve anything, while making items that had dodge as a useful affix a bit less useful.

    Still doesn't help with my biggest problem with dodge, though - 25% being a hard-cap.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  8. #28
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    Default sorry for going off topic, OP

    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    Indeed, with all the evidence I see on lam, the enhancement pass should be quite the NGE experience for DDO - most builds that people have worked to make for the past year and longer is completely being destroyed, but there's NEW options so it's obviously fine. I'm sure the fact that much of our feedback has been ignored is fine - Turbine knows what's best, after all.

    That's the type of attitude that no one can really take seriously...especially when you're asking for everyone to focus on bonuses that don't really exist (for example, my sorc would be getting hit quite hard with the enhancement pass mainly because I TRed out of Shiradi Champion build). People are looking at almost EVERY character suffering....and quite honestly, many of us are leaving over it (I personally don't have DDO installed right now, and am waiting for the enhancement pass/expansion to come to decide ultimately whether or not to cancel my VIP permanently).

    I do intend to still frequent the forums, though...interesting how long people tout the strength of their unsinkable ship right before they hit the iceberg.

    Depends how you look at it. I transferred my 4 main toons over. A 3rd life fighter/monk unarmed kensai, and 2nd life druid/monk (17/3), a pure monk, and a 18/2 fvs/monk.

    I quickly realized my unarmed fighter monk would not be able to take advantage of most of the enhancements as it is now, but i could also lose the unarmed, gain grandmaster stances, switch to another weapon(longswords are my personal preference), and increase my list of available weapons by quite a lot.

    my halfling druid seemed in poor shape until i realized that as a 17/3, i could now dual wield shortswords with dex to hit/damage. Also, she can throw shuriken!

    my monk seemed a bit weaker until i got the hang of the new ability lay out, but after that i was even more survivable. Henshin get's access to light AND dark monk abilities/finishing moves.

    and my fvs ran around with a shoulder cannon getting more bonus spell power, more temp spell points, and more crits than on live. my avenging light went from ~300 critting for ~550 to ~425 critting for >800.

    Will the builds be the best EE capable builds i can make, no. But I don't really want those, i want fun to play, survivable solo friendly toons.

    So to sum it up... 4 main characters, none of them SUFFERING...

    I'm not saying that there aren't plenty of things to be changed, as troll said, the stalwart and DoS trees need their shield provisions reworked. Needs to go back to being good, and better with a shield.

  9. #29
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    This thread is completely worthless without balancing the pluses AND minuses...
    Now Thrudh I layed out why this needs to be a civil thread not full of back and forth, and this is the second time in it that you've demanded that I defend the defendant at the same time that I prosecute the defendant. I'm trying to compile a list of things that might blind side players who don't read the lam forums, who might not be expecting the pass to arbitrarily and inexplicably take away their characters abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
    I"m amused by the assumption of a lack of an uproar. While chastising others for it, I dont' think the OP reads the Lamm forums.
    If you are that familiar with the lam forums then you've seen my posts... See: bladeforged, Paladin, FvS, general discussion, Treasure changes, Barbarian, Bard etc.

    Edit: adding new nerfs as posted on page 1

    Please guys I realize that some of you have zero problem with whats in the pass, this isn't the thread for that back and forth. I have respectfully asked for people to not try and start stuff. We all know that getting a big flame war started is just a quick lock of this thread. Further attempts to characterize or passive aggressively portray people who aren't 100% happy with the pass will be construed as deliberate attempts to get the thread locked and will be reported to Cordovan as such.

    Ask yourself why a "turbine apologist" started this thread... Perhaps not everything is sunshine and roses and just maybe we need the player base to think critically while there's is some glimmer of hope to change some of the worst nerfs. They at least added a decent Cleric PrE, so there is hope they will listen.
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 07-03-2013 at 02:19 PM.

  10. #30
    2014 DDO Players Council
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    Capstones are totally nerfed.

    Being single-classed 20 levels isn't enough anymore; now you also have to hyper-specialize in a "tree" and take tons of "enhancements" you don't want or care about to qualify for your class capstone.

  11. #31
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    And despite all these 'nerfs' you will all be here playing U19 day 1.

    Enjoy them.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  12. #32
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    This seems like a bit of an exaggeration. 'Most' characters do not get any Class Toughness enhancements, just 2 ranks for Racial Enhancement.
    Fair enough I've dropped the low end down to 20, I will say that by most I just mean a simple majority of characters, I have almost no characters that don't have both class and racial toughness. I have a lot of Dwarves but even my FvS has 2 elf and 4 FvS (of which I take all but the last). I would also point out that those high cost tiers are by in large used by newer characters as mid levels when the extra HP's really help and then they re-do their enhancements later when they have better gear and save a few AP's.

    So the ones most hurt by the toughness changes are newer players and less well geared players going into the hardest content.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    one thing that really stood out to me was Favored Souls. They loose their weapon specialization enhancements and related bonuses. With any luck, these will be in the Divine Avenger tree. But it is hard to be hopeful about that ever being released, considering that there has been no mention of it since Eladrin was giving hints about how the mechanics of it were going to work two years ago. ~.~
    Hey they can just cut and paste the Divine Disciple tree over from cleric Nerf added, and thanks this is one that's in my wheelhouse but I didn't even realize... My FvS's (2 of them) will do less weapon damage.

  13. #33
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArcaneArcher52689 View Post
    Depends how you look at it. I transferred my 4 main toons over. A 3rd life fighter/monk unarmed kensai, and 2nd life druid/monk (17/3), a pure monk, and a 18/2 fvs/monk.

    I quickly realized my unarmed fighter monk would not be able to take advantage of most of the enhancements as it is now, but i could also lose the unarmed, gain grandmaster stances, switch to another weapon(longswords are my personal preference), and increase my list of available weapons by quite a lot.
    Increased weapon choices....Great, it's better than handwraps. Not sure how "gaining" Grandmaster Stances was helpful, I am sure I am missing something, but the old system has Grandmaster stances also.

    my halfling druid seemed in poor shape until i realized that as a 17/3, i could now dual wield shortswords with dex to hit/damage. Also, she can throw shuriken!
    Dex = +Hit/+Damage has been a long time needed. Then again, if you go Dex build on your Druid, you lose on spell casting and not being Wisdom based.

    my monk seemed a bit weaker until i got the hang of the new ability lay out, but after that i was even more survivable. Henshin get's access to light AND dark monk abilities/finishing moves.
    I'll take your word on this as I am more of a "splasher" and not a pure monk kind of person.

    and my fvs ran around with a shoulder cannon getting more bonus spell power, more temp spell points, and more crits than on live. my avenging light went from ~300 critting for ~550 to ~425 critting for >800.
    So what you are saying is you are impressed by the numbers and not the mechanics. Spell points were never an issue for FvS so Temp Spell points are laughable. Spell power (damage) has been reduced across the board so your still doing less damage over the same time. At least with the Temp SP's you don't pay for the injustice as bad.

    Will the builds be the best EE capable builds i can make, no. But I don't really want those, i want fun to play, survivable solo friendly toons.

    So to sum it up... 4 main characters, none of them SUFFERING...
    I will take your word on this.

    I'm not saying that there aren't plenty of things to be changed, as troll said, the stalwart and DoS trees need their shield provisions reworked. Needs to go back to being good, and better with a shield.
    More than a few things need to be looked at but the direction they are steering DDO is says they wont. I need to take another look at the Beta pass now that more information is available but honestly it is feeling like NWO, 4th Ed, and WoW rolled into one.

  14. #34
    Community Member Lycurgus's Avatar
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    Archmage DCs potentially fall behind Pale Master in all schools of magic including primary. ***?



  15. #35
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Good thread for those that look at the new enhancement pass and have trouble seeing what is happening.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  16. #36
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    And despite all these 'nerfs' you will all be here playing U19 day 1.

    Enjoy them.
    Yes, because there are also some brokenly AWESOME un-intended synergies that are borderline exploits that I intend on abusing like they are Tina Turner.

    These are just as bad for the game in the long run as the nerfs. A smart person would be able to see that.

  17. #37
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    And despite all these 'nerfs' you will all be here playing U19 day 1.

    Enjoy them.
    You say that, but the number of people who have uninstalled due to the enhancement alpha is likely (no citations, but going by my observation) quite large. Combine with all the other questionable decisions about to happen at once...your statement is false for several of us.

    Personally, I've logged on twice in the past two months before uninstalling...I'd be heavily surprised if I'm the only one that's done similar.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  18. #38
    Community Member ddo.rsmo.pt's Avatar
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    This game used to be different because you could make interesting builds. That's one big part of the game, for me at least.

    Now, they are practically saying: Dwarves shouldnt cast spells, go make a fighter. Or: Paladins using two-weapons?? That's a no-no, go make a sword-and-board.

    Excitement rating -> Blargh.

    Carry on.
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  19. #39
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Well, at least I don't feel all that bad going pure S&B with my DoS pally. Less to change.

  20. #40
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Well, at least I don't feel all that bad going pure S&B with my DoS pally. Less to change.
    Hate to rain on your parade but Sword and board might be getting nerfed the worst out of any playstyle. DOS/Stalwart: "When using a shield, you now generate 75% additional threat from all sources and gain 20 physical resistance"

    ^^ Is no longer a thing, so you're only getting the PRR and the threat from the stance, in other words HALF the threat and HALF the PRR that Defender PrE granted you is going away.

    Yes that's right they nerfed us bro... They nerfed S&B... (not to mention you can no longer whip out a Greataxe while in stance to be able to do a little more DPS over the trifling amount we were doing.)

    Reminds me I forget about the +threat in the list *runs off to edit*
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 07-03-2013 at 03:38 PM.

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