Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 24
  1. #1
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    4,747

    Default The point of innate abilities and the death of some pure builds

    It seems to me that the innate abilities are present in this system as innates for two reasons:

    1. To provide incentive against heavy splashing while the trees themselves are very multiclass friendly

    They are placed as innates simply by assigning a progressively higher ML to progressively more powerful abilities (eg. ML:6, ML:12, ML:18, ML:20). The rules by which these abilities get their ML are different than the rest of the tree (which is: ability in a certain tier is available as long as you have that same amount of levels in the class).

    2. To create an action point sink, since you need to acquire the lower tier abilities in order to gain the upper tier ones, assuming that the upper tier ones are highly desirable.

    So, I submit to you, the developers, a question: Why would you create an innate line with sequential advancement, when the ML mechanic of the tree itself is already multiclass friendly?

    This, in part, lies at the heart of the death of a lot of pure builds. There are many innate abilities that you are forcing us to take until we reach the capstone enhancements, that most of us say screw it. Then, we multiclass in order to compensate for losing that one capstone ability, simultaneously saving all the action points we otherwise would have spent toward that capstone. WIN.

    My point is that the power of the capstone isn't solely responsible for the death of pure builds. Its the action point tax of the other innates, as well as the outright uselessness of them, that deter people from purity.

    My wizard does not want every form out there in order to reach the capstone. My fighter does not want that silly spiritual bond thing or the vorpal strikes (since it shares a cooldown with a boost last I checked) so that I can grab my capstone. My halforc doesn't want that morale bonus to strength when his health gets low just so that I can grab a strength or even begin spending my points in the tree.

    Suggestion:

    Divorce the innates from one another. I don't want them to be pre-reqs for each other, the ML suffices.

    Don't FORCE me to spend my first point(s) in the first innate just so that I can open up the tree, I don't always want that first innate.
    Cetus Heroic Lives: #32/32 | Epic Completionist: #20/24 | Iconic Lives: #6/6
    Cetusz - Pure Sorcerer: Heroic Lives: #24/24 | Epic Lives: #6/12 | Iconic Lives: #1/3
    YouTube Channel HERE
    Argonnessen's DEGENERATE MATTER

  2. #2
    Uber Uber Completionist
    2014 DDO Player Council
    Deadlock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Scotland - where the dwarf accents come from
    Posts
    3,508

    Default

    The first point in the tree is the mechanic to unlock the tree for spending points in. Previously you could take the first innate ability in every tree you had access to, but I'm guessing with the new 6 class tree options they've decided to change that. Don't really have an issue with the 1AP cost to unlock a tree.

    All core abilities have had their cost reduced to 1AP where before it alternated between 1AP and 2AP, so that is an improvement.

    But yeah, can't see any reason why you should be forced to take all of the innates in order to take the capstone. If the innates are desirable then we'll take them without being shoe-horned into it.

    I'd apply the same logic to a lot of the class and racial enhancements, there are still too many restrictions in the trees for my liking - just open it all up and let people pick for themselves what they want. If that means that people are cherry picking the most powerful enhancements and ignoring the fluff, then that just means that you have too much useless fluff. I'm guessing that you can gather metrics on what enhancements are being chosen in each tree for level 4,8,12,6,20,24,28 characters and do some analysis on that - so open it up and let people provide you with the data on which enhancements are worth taking according to the masses.

  3. #3

    Default

    I agree with this. Currently things are way to multiclass friendly.
    Katavina Leagond - Cannith

  4. #4
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    916

    Default

    I still totally despise the whole idea that I can take 6 ranger, and have access to the entire tempest and AA tree, or take 8 fighter (because of the feat prereq) and have access to what used to be saved for lvl 18 fighters. To me it's just hopelessly overpowered that I can make an 8 Fighter/6 Monk/6 who cares, probably Rogue and have one of the most powerful melee builds this game has ever seen, using a greataxe while centered.

  5. #5
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    588

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    I still totally despise the whole idea that I can take 6 ranger, and have access to the entire tempest and AA tree, or take 8 fighter (because of the feat prereq) and have access to what used to be saved for lvl 18 fighters. To me it's just hopelessly overpowered that I can make an 8 Fighter/6 Monk/6 who cares, probably Rogue and have one of the most powerful melee builds this game has ever seen, using a greataxe while centered.
    Don't worry they plan to hike the minimum class level up.

    Sadly maybe the surveys were positive. Mostly due to leading questions like "it this easier to use than the old" as opposed to "is this as flexible as the old".

    Who are these positive people and how closely are they paying attention, how mesmerized are they by grandmaster Earth stance and Kensei III centered using eSoS with X6 crits?

  6. #6
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Who are these positive people and how closely are they paying attention, how mesmerized are they by grandmaster Earth stance and Kensei III centered using eSoS with X6 crits?
    It's a good thing I have plenty of d000m!!! to temper my enthusiasm.

    Many of these innate ability just plain suck. If these are the incentives to playing a pure class they need to be better.

    The fighter capstone needs to be strong enough to compete with the 12/6/2 build with 25% dodge, 25% incorporeal, 100ish PRR and MORE DPS.

  7. #7
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Flying overhead
    Posts
    1,757

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Don't worry they plan to hike the minimum class level up.
    "They" do?

    Huh. Someone should probably have let me know by now.


    PS: Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.

  8. #8
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    "They" do?

    Huh. Someone should probably have let me know by now.


    PS: Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.
    Bigfoot and Charlie Sheen really aren't Lindsay Lohan's parents?

  9. #9
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    4,747

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    "They" do?

    Huh. Someone should probably have let me know by now.


    PS: Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.
    Sigh...why would you spent the energy reacting to that comment versus the other more important, time-invested, thought-provoking, inquiring posts? The lamma dev tracker has been barren for the past two days.
    Cetus Heroic Lives: #32/32 | Epic Completionist: #20/24 | Iconic Lives: #6/6
    Cetusz - Pure Sorcerer: Heroic Lives: #24/24 | Epic Lives: #6/12 | Iconic Lives: #1/3
    YouTube Channel HERE
    Argonnessen's DEGENERATE MATTER

  10. #10
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    3,063

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Bigfoot and Charlie Sheen really aren't Lindsay Lohan's parents?
    Are you saying bigfoot is female? No wonder i haven't been able to find him!

  11. #11
    Community Member rest's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Burque
    Posts
    5,602

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    PS: Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.
    This is especially true of people with yellow forum names.


    Or so I hear.

  12. #12
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    124

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    The first point in the tree is the mechanic to unlock the tree for spending points in. Previously you could take the first innate ability in every tree you had access to, but I'm guessing with the new 6 class tree options they've decided to change that. Don't really have an issue with the 1AP cost to unlock a tree.

    All core abilities have had their cost reduced to 1AP where before it alternated between 1AP and 2AP, so that is an improvement.

    But yeah, can't see any reason why you should be forced to take all of the innates in order to take the capstone. If the innates are desirable then we'll take them without being shoe-horned into it.

    I'd apply the same logic to a lot of the class and racial enhancements, there are still too many restrictions in the trees for my liking - just open it all up and let people pick for themselves what they want. If that means that people are cherry picking the most powerful enhancements and ignoring the fluff, then that just means that you have too much useless fluff. I'm guessing that you can gather metrics on what enhancements are being chosen in each tree for level 4,8,12,6,20,24,28 characters and do some analysis on that - so open it up and let people provide you with the data on which enhancements are worth taking according to the masses.
    I agree with this completely and just add that being forced to spent points on things I don't want to get things I do want is a painful, unfun mechanic. It's especially bad since you don't have enough good abilities in a single tree that I feel like "hey look at all these great things I could choose from, however will I decide?" no.. there's always 1 or 2 good abilities and your thinking is "which of these garbage abilities will bother me the least and not take up hotbar space?"

    "AP spent in tree", "Arrow" requirements, & "Autogrants" are all part of the problem and all need to go away for us to feel like we are actually choosing abilities rather than being forced to choose abilities.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    I still totally despise the whole idea that I can take 6 ranger, and have access to the entire tempest and AA tree, or take 8 fighter (because of the feat prereq) and have access to what used to be saved for lvl 18 fighters. To me it's just hopelessly overpowered that I can make an 8 Fighter/6 Monk/6 who cares, probably Rogue and have one of the most powerful melee builds this game has ever seen, using a greataxe while centered.
    In it's current form I agree with you, there is zero incentive to stay pure for any melee class at least. I like the idea of prestige classes being opened up but only if they have alternate requirements to temper the power gain somewhat. Higher min class lvl's is only one way to go about it, iconic abilities could have more feat/skill/stat/etc requirements to allow good multiclass builds without pure builds being totally shafted.


    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    It's a good thing I have plenty of d000m!!! to temper my enthusiasm.

    Many of these innate ability just plain suck. If these are the incentives to playing a pure class they need to be better.

    The fighter capstone needs to be strong enough to compete with the 12/6/2 build with 25% dodge, 25% incorporeal, 100ish PRR and MORE DPS.
    The problem is they didn't fully flesh out most of these trees.. they just ported the current abilities over and moved the good lvl 12/18 abilities to the top of the tree while adding new garbage ones down in the lvl 12/18 slots (see all monk trees for great examples of this). While this goes with the seemingly intended goal of encouraging more diverse builds and making prestige classes less linked to base class it has the side effect of making pure class builds pale so much in comparison that there's no longer a reason to stay pure for most melee builds.

    For anyone mocking his claim as silly it may be exaggerated for humor but it's not that far off.. you could stay pure and get 1~2 fluff abilities and a mediocre capstone or splash and get nearly everything good from another class' prestige. It's a no brainer atm.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Sigh...why would you spent the energy reacting to that comment versus the other more important, time-invested, thought-provoking, inquiring posts? The lamma dev tracker has been barren for the past two days.
    Yes this is a trend I've noticed as well, maybe he has no good answers for the real concerns but wants to let people know they are here and paying attention. So I guess that's something?
    Last edited by Zakharov; 07-03-2013 at 02:48 PM.

  13. #13
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    2,671

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    It's a good thing I have plenty of d000m!!! to temper my enthusiasm.

    Many of these innate ability just plain suck. If these are the incentives to playing a pure class they need to be better.

    The fighter capstone needs to be strong enough to compete with the 12/6/2 build with 25% dodge, 25% incorporeal, 100ish PRR and MORE DPS.
    Well, we were told that the capstones should be as tempting as a splash for Evasion. Since nothing changed in the Enhancement tree, we can hope that they are still working on buffing up the capstones. Although as it's been pointed out, it's more than just that really good feat that the capstone is now competing with, it's the 2 to 4 additional trees with several powerful low-hanging fruit abilities also.

    Beefing up the innate abilities will also go a long way of helping the pure class builds. As others pointed out, moving many of the great prestige abilities from their current level tiered innate spot to the tree makes staying pure less wanted. So why aren't the innate abilities filled with a bunch of goods, but usually just a single power that isn't even useful for all that want that prestige?

    For example, let's look at the rogue trees:
    * The first two innate abilities for Assassin and Acrobat only helps Dex based characters and give nothing to STR based characters. Why isn't there something like +1 AC when wielding Staves for Acrobats and wielding Daggers and Kurkis for Assassins, so something thrown to STR that stick with the flavor of the individual innate abilities.
    * Each of the Rogue innate abilities should be buffing up skills, since Rogues are a skill based class. Each Assassin innate ability should be granting +1 Hide and Move Silently. Each Acrobat innate should be granting +1 to Tumble, Jump and Balance. Each Mechanic innate should be granting +1 to Disable Device and Open Lock or +1 Search and Spot. Little things like this should be sprinkled through out the innate abilities for all the classes.

    Also, the higher the innate ability, more stuff stuff should be in those innate ability. So I can see where only one or two things are available at the first or second innate ability, but the level 12 and higher innate abilities should contain 4 or 5 things to encourage staying not only within the class, but the tree itself.
    *

  14. #14
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    "They" do?

    Huh. Someone should probably have let me know by now.


    PS: Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.
    Dunno about hiking up MLs, but I will say there's a distinct lack of incentive for levels 7-11, 13-17, and 19 still present in the system, as well as more than one enhancement that effects things granted at a higher level then the enhancement it'sself. Trapmaking bonuses (not that the crafted ones are of any use, still), for instance at 2 rogue levels, when it takes 4 to get the feat to deploy em. Fighters already been mentioned. Probably at least 2-3 more. Adds to the confusion as far as intent.

  15. #15
    Community Member toaftoaf's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    628

    Default 24 AP for endless fusillade!!!

    i just have to say it again. it cost 8 now. i might have plans to do my rangerficer with no artie enhancments but it just seems silly

  16. #16
    Founder
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    1,131

    Default

    I agree that most of the higher capstones need some juice and perhaps some of the low hanging fruit moved up a tier or 2. Do we seriously need more reason to splash 2 monk? Having it give the best feature of the whole defender trees??? Even if the monk thing gets fixed it will be all about 6/6/8 melees and non sorc casters.

  17. #17
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    10,690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Sigh...why would you spent the energy reacting to that comment versus the other more important, time-invested, thought-provoking, inquiring posts? The lamma dev tracker has been barren for the past two days.
    Thought provoking? Your posts tend to be either why is my character not super overpowered or why is my wizard not 10 times better then a sorcerer or in the alternative devs you are idiots type of posts.

    My suggestion is that the devs reduce the number of points that are required to be spent in a tree before getting the final core ability from 40 to 35 pts. This would mean that a pure class could have two core level 20 ability by spending 37 points in two trees thus after 74 pts a pure level 20 build would have two core level 20 abilities and then they would have 10 more points to spend in whatever they want such as their racial tree. This suggestion would help fighters and paladins less then monks, rangers, rogues, and barbarians because those classes all have three trees to choose from rather then just two, but it would be a start.

    I would also like to hear the devs are planning to release a third tree in all the classes that just have two, but I am less hopeful with that, but that would help pure level 20 fighters, paladins, bards, FVS, etc.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  18. #18
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    gamertown usa
    Posts
    6,501

    Default

    If racial enhancements counted towards all class requirements, or half, it would make the single tree focus a little more viable. I also don't see a problem with taking abilities in a tree you don't plan on utilizing all the time in order to get capstone.

    I do however think capstones need a boost to really fulfill the namesake for your class. I have posted about it before.

  19. #19
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    44

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    I'd apply the same logic to a lot of the class and racial enhancements, there are still too many restrictions in the trees for my liking - just open it all up and let people pick for themselves what they want. If that means that people are cherry picking the most powerful enhancements and ignoring the fluff, then that just means that you have too much useless fluff. I'm guessing that you can gather metrics on what enhancements are being chosen in each tree for level 4,8,12,6,20,24,28 characters and do some analysis on that - so open it up and let people provide you with the data on which enhancements are worth taking according to the masses.
    Think about this. In real life, if you want to learn a skill, you have to learn the basics first. You can't just jump into the advanced stuff, you need basic knowledge, and then increasingly complex knowledge until you can grasp the highest. For example, you have to know addition and subtraction before multiplication and devision, multiplication and devision before algebra and geometry, algebra and geometry before trigonometry, and algebra, geometry, and trigonomotry before calculus. You can't just jump to calculus because it's the most useful. The same applies in DDO: all that "useless fluff" in most cases is vital basic physical or mental requirements for your character before they can grasp the higher stuff. Even in unconnected cases, the tree as a whole represents knowledge, training, and devotion to a particular skill set; the more you have, the more complex and incredible the stuff you can understand and do.

  20. #20
    Community Member ZeebaNeighba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    1,196

    Default

    I haven't been on lamannia since the beta opened but is there still a 40 point requirement for the capstone too? If so, that should be lowered, to around what it takes to get the top row abilities in the tree. Because that's the easiest thing telling me to go screw the core abilities and capstone- If I need to spend ~6 more points just to get to it, not worth it, I'm an Arcane Archer non-ranger and with that tree, a class tree and racial I don't have the points to blow on those things.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload