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  1. #21
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Power attack is also mandatory for anyone willing to use melee weapon for more than casting bonuses.
    Should it also be free for everyone?
    maybe not so much for barbs if they cant rage and use PA at the same time. that alone kills the class.

  2. #22
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    maybe not so much for barbs if they cant rage and use PA at the same time. that alone kills the class.
    That pretty clearly has to be a bug.

  3. #23
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    maybe not so much for barbs if they cant rage and use PA at the same time. that alone kills the class.
    Wait . . . WHAT?

    I missed this one . . . they can't rage with PA on?

  4. #24
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Wait . . . WHAT?

    I missed this one . . . they can't rage with PA on?
    It's one of those things that sounds so crazy you assume it's a bug, but with Turbine, you never know.
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  5. #25
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Power attack is also mandatory for anyone willing to use melee weapon for more than casting bonuses.
    Should it also be free for everyone?
    So I guess all of those Rogues with Precision instead of Power Attack are doing it wrong then?

  6. #26
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AylinIsAwesome View Post
    So I guess all of those Rogues with Precision instead of Power Attack are doing it wrong then?
    By all those you mean 2 or 3 individuals?
    Because thsoe without power attack (who are actually doing any meaningful DPS) are of urban legend rarity.

  7. #27
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    By all those you mean 2 or 3 individuals?
    Because thsoe without power attack (who are actually doing any meaningful DPS) are of urban legend rarity.
    Most I know take both because at epic level yeah you can stack a bunch of fort bypass for raid bosses. Most mobs don't have fort though so it's a net decrease in most situations.

  8. #28
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Most I know take both because at epic level yeah you can stack a bunch of fort bypass for raid bosses. Most mobs don't have fort though so it's a net decrease in most situations.
    I have both. No matter your str, it's almost required to have both on a heavy rogue build at epic levels. I say almost because I know some people will think of better feats. My self, however, took both and both cleave feats on my rogue so that I could charge blitz, and have some powerful AOE damage to add to my massive single target dps.

    Seriously, twf plus cleave feats is the way to go. High AOE damage plus high single target damage is the best combination for maximum bum-pillaging.

  9. #29
    Community Member azrael4h's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    I like that Toughness will not be a must-have feat anymore. But I do think the change is a little over the top - from being a must-have to a gimp feat that nearly noone will take.
    That seems to be the Turbine way. Remember back in U14 (IIRC) when they were going to cripple Maximize and Empower? They were going to be so weak that no one would take them outside of PrE reqs. Turbine backed off of that one, don't know if they will with this. But it's the same thing, with no toughness enhancements linked to the toughness feat, pretty much only my Fighter might take one or two, and that's because Fighters have so many feats it's a matter of what else would I do with them? Dragonmarks?
    It was the night before Hogswatch....

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  10. #30
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azrael4h View Post
    That seems to be the Turbine way. Remember back in U14 (IIRC) when they were going to cripple Maximize and Empower? They were going to be so weak that no one would take them outside of PrE reqs. Turbine backed off of that one, don't know if they will with this. But it's the same thing, with no toughness enhancements linked to the toughness feat, pretty much only my Fighter might take one or two, and that's because Fighters have so many feats it's a matter of what else would I do with them? Dragonmarks?
    A feat that a character "might" take is better than 80% of the current feat list. There's a lot of low hanging fruit there and even with the changes, toughness is still a feat to be considered rather than mandatory.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by azrael4h View Post
    That seems to be the Turbine way. Remember back in U14 (IIRC) when they were going to cripple Maximize and Empower? They were going to be so weak that no one would take them outside of PrE reqs. Turbine backed off of that one, don't know if they will with this. But it's the same thing, with no toughness enhancements linked to the toughness feat, pretty much only my Fighter might take one or two, and that's because Fighters have so many feats it's a matter of what else would I do with them? Dragonmarks?
    True, they do have this history.

    Will they change it? Who knows, but I wouldn't place any large amount on money on us getting to hit the ball this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    A feat that a character "might" take is better than 80% of the current feat list. There's a lot of low hanging fruit there and even with the changes, toughness is still a feat to be considered rather than mandatory.
    So, it's not too bad because the skill focus feats are still worse? I may be silly, but I think either making feats like that better or removing them from the game would be a better choice for the game than nerfing feats until they're just as useless as those.
    Last edited by Dandonk; 07-06-2013 at 01:13 PM.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  12. #32
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    it will be interesting to see how players build their characters now who would boot/decline others because of low hp. maybe this is a start to using some tactics instead of letting hp absorb the damage while zerging the game.

  13. #33
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takllin View Post
    With the removal of the toughness enhancement line this feat seems to be a complete waste unless you plan on taking epic toughness as well...
    Great! Now I can fit in quicken AND empower heal on my paladin!

  14. #34
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    it will be interesting to see how players build their characters now who would boot/decline others because of low hp. maybe this is a start to using some tactics instead of letting hp absorb the damage while zerging the game.
    This changes nothing, really. People will still complain about low HP, just now the bar has been lowered to fit the deficit. 95% Of all characters will have lower HP than they did before. 256 HP at level 20 will still be considered a 'con-dumper'.

    My only concern is how this is going to impact end-game epic elite quests where 80 HP can make an actual difference between being killed in 2 hits or 3. FVS, rogues, and WF sorcerers are going to feel this more than most, I think. Rogues are definitely going to need more skill in avoiding aggro.
    Last edited by HastyPudding; 07-07-2013 at 07:26 PM.

  15. #35
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    This changes nothing, really. People will still complain about low HP, just now the bar has been lowered to fit the deficit. 95% Of all characters will have lower HP than they did before. 256 HP at level 20 will still be considered a 'con-dumper'.

    My only concern is how this is going to impact end-game epic elite quests where 80 HP can make an actual difference between being killed in 2 hits or 3. FVS, rogues, and WF sorcerers are going to feel this more than most, I think. Rogues are definitely going to need more skill in avoiding aggro.
    Rogues don't get class based bonuses, so only wf and dwarf will really feel this unless you have a human/helf rogue that took greater con for 6 points to get that 3rd toughness enhancement for another 3. Even then, Dwarves and Toasters get hp from their racial tree, so they'll come out roughly ok.

    WF Sorcs, same as above. They get hp in their racial tree, so that will start to even out. Otherwise their hp shouldn't change. If you have an 18/2 sorc then yes you'll lose 5hp over the current enhancements, assuming of course you invest absolutely nothing into the racial.

    Now, Favoured souls do lose out. So do Fighters, Barbs, Paladins, and Druids.

    This 80hp thing is also needs to be addressed so that people can't keep spreading the wrong information.

    Let's take a Dwarven Fighter. It costs 10ap for the 40hp you get from being a Dwarf, and 10ap for the 40hp you get from being a Fighter. You spent 20ap on just hp, and that's the only way you're getting 80hp from toughness enhancements.

    5 of the 13 classes have a chance at losing 60hp from these changes, and only if you had them as dwarves or toasters with 1/4th of their ap spent into hp. Not 80hp, 60hp. Now, on average those 5 classes will lose between 10-30hp. All races get at least 2 racial toughnesses, but only those 5 classes get any for themselves.

    Now, where this becomes a problem is multiclass builds. I personally think it should be every 4 levels, not every 5. This allows for 25hp for pures, but is less restrictive on multiclass builds.

    But no. This is not a massive deficit across the board like people have been saying.

  16. #36
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    My concern isn't the loss of the racial Toughness enhs, which is a wash in the long run for most builds; it's the changes to the class Toughness enhs. Why do, e.g., ftrs need to invest in SD tree to gain bonus HPs?

    Sure, you can gain a lot of HPs thru gear & buffs, but what about those players who don't have access to all that stuff? I.e., the newbies, the guild-less, the casual DDOers - all the people who are supposed to be helped by not making Toughness de facto mandatory like it is now. By reducing the amount of HPs they can gain cheaply (thru Toughness + a few APs), you're actually making it harder for those players, not easier. That, umm, probably wasn't Turbine's intent.
    Last edited by unbongwah; 07-08-2013 at 10:07 AM.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Power attack is also mandatory for anyone willing to use melee weapon for more than casting bonuses.
    Should it also be free for everyone?
    Er. Toughness was a requirement, because no matter what you were, you had to take it. Power attack, not so much. I have wizards and clerics without it. I have a monk without it; given that she is a wis based monk, a few extra points of damage is not going to matter as much as a better chance to stun or kill outright.

    So no, you do not need power attack to do decent dps. You do, however, need toughness and toughness enhs, no matter who you are. My level 7 wizard, with equip, can not survive the fall in the harbor from haverdasher to the pier below. It does ~60 hps, and I have 69 hps....

    For me, getting rid of this trashy must-have feat is the best thing since sliced and prebuttered bread.

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