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  1. #1
    Community Member Takllin's Avatar
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    Default Toughness a waste of a feat now

    With the removal of the toughness enhancement line this feat seems to be a complete waste unless you plan on taking epic toughness as well...

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  2. #2
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takllin View Post
    With the removal of the toughness enhancement line this feat seems to be a complete waste unless you plan on taking epic toughness as well...
    Pretty much

    I'm not taking it.
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  4. #4
    Community Member Chette's Avatar
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    But on the other hand, you now have a free feat, which is great for the feat starved classes like bards.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    This is the exact reason they changed it.

    Logic: Toughness is considered nearly 100% required for all classes. Why not make the bonus people seem to gain from Toughness just auto granted, thus freeing up a slot for nearly all classes?

    BRILLIANT!!!!

    OMG I LOST 80hp FROM THIS CHANGE!!!

    Seriously, why were you spending 1/4th of your ap on hp?

  6. #6
    Community Member Noctus's Avatar
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    To be honest in the current system Thoughness isnt really a feat-choice, but more like a feat-tax, as literally every build presented in the forums takes it.

    There is not really a choice, its simply that good/needed.


    So they freed up a featslot i can now decide to do with. Althoug i dont like loosing around 10-30 HP on most of my toons, one more "real" featslot to paly with and invest in other gainful boni is worth that.
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  7. #7
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takllin View Post
    With the removal of the toughness enhancement line this feat seems to be a complete waste unless you plan on taking epic toughness as well...
    And this makes me very happy.

    Now I'll actually be able to spend all of my feats on things I want.

  8. #8
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    I like that Toughness will not be a must-have feat anymore. But I do think the change is a little over the top - from being a must-have to a gimp feat that nearly noone will take.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  9. #9
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    If you consider that before the toughness enhancements existed (and technically for a time even after the enhancements came out and we had Minos Legends the Toughness Feat Granter) toughness was not considered a "required" feat but one fighters invested in for an extra 13 HP.

    The direction chosen to balance out the system was to add Toughness Enhancements for classes. This made the small extra amount of HP granted by the Feat seem worth it to gain the extra 20 to 80 HP (depending on class/race). In essence I see this change as a correction of the problem that developed because of this - and in my opinion a good correction.

    Even if we pull Toughness Feet out to Level 28, so 30 HP.

    Now each person gets to decide 30HP or some other feat? Before this change this argument could be 107 HP vs Some other defensive/offensive feat. Add another 50 HP and now you are discussing their value vs 2 other feats

    Now these 30 to 80 HP will still be worth while to some builds but will no longer be mandatory.

    Builds that were heavily invested in the HP Enhancement lines - Such as your Dwarven/WF/Human Fighter/Paladin builds for example will probably not have as many HP. But from what I'm seeing that will be more in the range of 60ish HP before stances that increase HP.

  10. #10
    Community Member LilyOphelia's Avatar
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    Toughness is still compelling (more hp is always amazing) versus being mandatory. Great place for it to be!

  11. #11
    Community Member Takllin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    This is the exact reason they changed it.

    Logic: Toughness is considered nearly 100% required for all classes. Why not make the bonus people seem to gain from Toughness just auto granted, thus freeing up a slot for nearly all classes?

    BRILLIANT!!!!

    OMG I LOST 80hp FROM THIS CHANGE!!!

    Seriously, why were you spending 1/4th of your ap on hp?
    Well I've always thought it was stupid to spend that many AP on 10 HP and have never spent more than 3 AP per life on the enhancements. I just found it odd that there was no real mention of it.

    And I'm all for the change. Ill still take the barb past life when I'm TRing just for those extra 20 HP at level 3, but outside of that ill never take it.

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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    This is the exact reason they changed it.

    Logic: Toughness is considered nearly 100% required for all classes. Why not make the bonus people seem to gain from Toughness just auto granted, thus freeing up a slot for nearly all classes?

    BRILLIANT!!!!

    OMG I LOST 80hp FROM THIS CHANGE!!!

    Seriously, why were you spending 1/4th of your ap on hp?
    Aye, and we will gain 3 more epic levels at the same time....how much is 3 more levels in hp?

  13. #13
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    30 HP per Toughness feat at level 28 isn't terrible. When combined with Epic Toughness it's 80 HP total, which is about 10% of HP for many builds. Many people are happy to allocate two feat slots for 10% HP. It's all how you look at it.
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  14. #14
    The Hatchery Hutoth's Avatar
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    ...
    Last edited by Hutoth; 07-05-2013 at 09:01 AM. Reason: double post
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  15. #15
    The Hatchery Hutoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    I like that Toughness will not be a must-have feat anymore. But I do think the change is a little over the top - from being a must-have to a gimp feat that nearly noone will take.
    Agreeing with this sentiment.

    Also, and more generally: removing ways in which you can fail, removing the reason to learn what works and doesn't work... are these good steps? If I literally cannot fail to make a pretty optimal toon, then all that's been accomplished is removing the "toon-making" game from DDO. I don't know about you reading this post, but for me writing it - I freaking love the toon-making game. Being unable to lose at it = being unable to win at it too.
    Last edited by Hutoth; 07-05-2013 at 08:58 AM.
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  16. #16
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Ill be taking stunning blow on my barb.

  17. #17
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hutoth View Post
    Agreeing with this sentiment.

    Also, and more generally: removing ways in which you can fail, removing the reason to learn what works and doesn't work... are these good steps? If I literally cannot fail to make a pretty optimal toon, then all that's been accomplished is removing the "toon-making" game from DDO. I don't know about you reading this post, but for me writing it - I freaking love the toon-making game. Being unable to lose at it = being unable to win at it too.
    We are a long way from making gimp builds impossible. People can still roll barbs and paladins

  18. #18
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctus View Post
    To be honest in the current system Thoughness isnt really a feat-choice, but more like a feat-tax, as literally every build presented in the forums takes it.

    There is not really a choice, its simply that good/needed.


    So they freed up a featslot i can now decide to do with. Althoug i dont like loosing around 10-30 HP on most of my toons, one more "real" featslot to paly with and invest in other gainful boni is worth that.
    Quote Originally Posted by AylinIsAwesome View Post
    And this makes me very happy.

    Now I'll actually be able to spend all of my feats on things I want.
    Power attack is also mandatory for anyone willing to use melee weapon for more than casting bonuses.
    Should it also be free for everyone?

  19. #19
    Community Member Takllin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Power attack is also mandatory for anyone willing to use melee weapon for more than casting bonuses.
    Should it also be free for everyone?
    Add cleave and great cleave too. With the changes made to them and lay waste/momentum swing.

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  20. #20
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takllin View Post
    Add cleave and great cleave too. With the changes made to them and lay waste/momentum swing.
    I think that power attack, cleave and great cleave are right where they should be as far as power level is concerned. The only reason they are mostly mandatory right now is that we don't have any comparable options for two reasons. Two handed fighting is very popular compared to two weapon fighting (partly because of how useful cleave and great cleave are) and the synergy with the Dreadnaught destiny, which is considered by many to be one of only 2 useful melee destinies. The other, Fury of the Wild, also has better synergy with two handed fighting than two weapon fighting due to how fury interacts differently with the two styles.

    A solution is to give people more reasons to play two weapon fighting and give feats that rival the usefulness of cleave and great cleave that work well with that fighting style. Even then, you would need either add new destiny devoted to two weapon fighting (Primal Avatar just doesn't cut it) or a nerf to Dreadnaught to make people even consider another option. Combine all this with the fact that the far and away best epic melee feat requires both cleave and great cleave and you have a situation where players are pushed right into such a narrow selection of feat "choices" that we wonder if it really is a choice at all.

    Freeing up toughness as a feat choice is hopefully just a first step in the process. The power attack, cleave, great cleave, overwhelming critical chain is just as easy a "no braner" for so many builds, that I'd love to see some actual choices added to encourage some diversity. When you have pure ranged toons still taking cleave and great cleave (and never using them) in order to get to overwhelming critical, you know there are some gaps that need to be filled in the feat list.
    Last edited by redspecter23; 07-05-2013 at 01:05 PM.
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