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  1. #21
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Can't get to Lamaland yet to check myself . . . but the consensus looks like Stalwart is still pretty horrible.

  2. #22
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Now that I'm able to sign in . . . Stalwart Defender is still terrible.

    48 APs to get what I have now on live . . . this is friggin insane. Seriously? This in an improvement? Absolutely terrible junk PRE.

    And I'm down 15 PRR?

    Meh, tanking was fun while it lasted but it's not needed in this game anymore anyway.

    Seriously, this is pure garbage.

  3. #23
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Now that I'm able to sign in . . . Stalwart Defender is still terrible.

    48 APs to get what I have now on live . . . this is friggin insane. Seriously? This in an improvement? Absolutely terrible junk PRE.

    And I'm down 15 PRR?

    Meh, tanking was fun while it lasted but it's not needed in this game anymore anyway.

    Seriously, this is pure garbage.
    You should probably explain this better... After you spend the full 80, can you get everything you have on live? If not, what are missing? What do you gain?

    48 APs to max out Stalwart Defender might be fine, if you can get most of the other stuff you want with the other 32... can you break it down?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  4. #24
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    You should probably explain this better... After you spend the full 80, can you get everything you have on live? If not, what are missing? What do you gain?

    48 APs to max out Stalwart Defender might be fine, if you can get most of the other stuff you want with the other 32... can you break it down?
    48 APs to get the equivalent of what I already have now which is nowhere near maxed. To get LESS than I have now on live, 15 less PRE and the stupid "must have shield" thing.

    I'm sorry, it's just a garbage PRE for "flavor" builds and gimps.

    Don't care enough to break it down, I'm just going to abandon the PRE completely. One less tank in the game that makes EE LOB and Truthful One his *****.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 07-29-2013 at 08:52 PM.

  5. #25
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    48 APs to get the equivalent of what I already have now which is nowhere near maxed. To get LESS than I have now on live, 15 less PRE and the stupid "must have shield" thing.

    I'm sorry, it's just a garbage PRE for "flavor" builds and gimps.

    Don't care enough to break it down, I'm just going to abandon the PRE completely. One less tank in the game that makes EE LOB and Truthful One his *****.
    The way I compared... I wrote down everything I had on live, then spent all my points in Lamannia and tried to see if I could get most or all of it back...

    In most cases I could... You need to do a full comparison to show the devs where they went wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  6. #26
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    The way I compared... I wrote down everything I had on live, then spent all my points in Lamannia and tried to see if I could get most or all of it back...

    In most cases I could... You need to do a full comparison to show the devs where they went wrong.
    You can't get most of it back.

    You're down 15 PRR

    You need to have a shield equipped.

    It's a garbage PRE.

  7. #27
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    if TWF or THF can achieve the same defensively as S&B then nobody will ever tank with a shield again.

    overall, while im not impressed with the new tanking trees, they are not TERRIBLE for what they are unless you want to think about the dps.

    take a dwarf/paladin for example. take the entire DoS tree and racial tree. add your con bonus to your attack instead of strength. 60ish con shouldnt be too hard to achieve in the expansion considering i have over 50 on my live paladin...

    do the defensive trees still need work? yup.

    are they TERRIBLE? nah.



    i do agree turbine on one point in this. while TWF and THF should definitely be far less defensive than S&B, i also feel that they should at least gain partial bonuses. but there has to be a balance. if they gain too much of the bonus, sword and board becomes obsolete. if they dont get enough bonus, tanks are cookie cutters who all do it the same way. sacrifice most dps, stack tons and tons of threat/incite and..well..you get the idea.

  8. #28
    Community Member Grosbeak07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You can't get most of it back.

    You're down 15 PRR

    You need to have a shield equipped.

    It's a garbage PRE.
    Care to explain how you can't get most of it back?

    Or do you just want to keep repeating yourself with nothing to support your claim?
    Magical Rings are well... magical. - Gandalf

  9. #29
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcedes View Post
    if TWF or THF can achieve the same defensively as S&B then nobody will ever tank with a shield again.

    overall, while im not impressed with the new tanking trees, they are not TERRIBLE for what they are unless you want to think about the dps.

    take a dwarf/paladin for example. take the entire DoS tree and racial tree. add your con bonus to your attack instead of strength. 60ish con shouldnt be too hard to achieve in the expansion considering i have over 50 on my live paladin...

    do the defensive trees still need work? yup.

    are they TERRIBLE? nah.



    i do agree turbine on one point in this. while TWF and THF should definitely be far less defensive than S&B, i also feel that they should at least gain partial bonuses. but there has to be a balance. if they gain too much of the bonus, sword and board becomes obsolete. if they dont get enough bonus, tanks are cookie cutters who all do it the same way. sacrifice most dps, stack tons and tons of threat/incite and..well..you get the idea.
    Do you understand anything at all about the game mechanics or do you just make poorly-thought strawman arguments for the hell of it?

    Nobody is asking TWFing/THFing to have the same defensive value of S&B (except for the monk enthusiast, but they whine about everything anyway). We're asking for the stance to work the same as it does not on live where the shield absolutely adds a bunch more defense.

    And seriously, the defensive trees are still garbage right now. It's especially true when 99% of the time tanks aren't needed at all. Making them worse is just plain dumb.

  10. #30
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosbeak07 View Post
    Care to explain how you can't get most of it back?

    Or do you just want to keep repeating yourself with nothing to support your claim?
    My claim is fact. Do not question the troll.

    It costs about 48 APs to get when Stalwart III gets you now on live.

    You're down 15 PRR in total. was 118 PRR on live (evasion tank, leather and heavy shield) only get 103 which I believe a monk can hit if they really try.

    The stance requires a shield for the good stuff which isn't required now on live.

    You can't get enough love out of Kensai for it to be worth the bother.

    Tanks aren't needed for 99% of the game anyway.

    Stalwarts are junk.

    NOTE: this is pretty much my only point of contention at this time with the ENH pass. I like the way the other class are working out and I believe all my other toons are better for it.

    Fighter? Stalwart is just plain terribad and kensai . . . I'm just not sure. My Kensai is TWFing is not impressing me right now. Need to try more deep-splash options or something.

    Regarding the Stalwart . . . at this point just give me back my 15 PRR and make some of this junk cheaper so maybe I can buy enough kensai to not be lousy. The shield requirements for the stance need to go, it's not OP on live and will not be OP once U19 hits.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 07-30-2013 at 10:22 AM.

  11. #31

    Default Well...

    I transferred my tank over and tried to make him as on live. I did lose 15 or so PRR but I gained about 10-15 ac somehow. Being a warforged I spent most of my remaining AP in Kensai and over all I feel like my character is moderately comparable to live.

    Then I worked on my THF hate tank paladin, and without the higher stance bonuses I am not sure what I am going to do with this toon as the new Knight of the Chalice/Hunter of the Dead doesn't seem appealing enough to me so for the most part I think he is going to get put on the shelf. Most all my toons improve in this enhancement pass but I feel that my tank did not and most definitely my THF paladin is broken.

    Bowerkoopa,

    Trolls are just Koopa's without shells.

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  12. #32
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrtigo View Post

    Trolls are just Koopa's without shells.
    Meaning we're more evolved? Got it.

  13. #33
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrtigo View Post
    Most all my toons improve in this enhancement pass but I feel that my tank did not and most definitely my THF paladin is broken.
    That's my point . . . 48 APs to tread water is lame. heck, it's not even treading water since we lost 15 PRR and don't have a THFing/TWFing viable option for trash.

  14. #34

    Default No..

    It means you lost the PRR and AC bonus from the shell

    Bowserkoopa,

    The greatest video game villain of all time

    Keeper of Keenbean's Heart

  15. #35

    Default Did not say I didn't agree

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    That's my point . . . 48 APs to tread water is lame. heck, it's not even treading water since we lost 15 PRR and don't have a THFing/TWFing viable option for trash.
    I think perhaps when/if we get a 3rd PRe maybe we'll come out ahead with the other 32 points to go somewhere. That fabled Purple Dragon Knight PrE maybe. And while I think combining Hunter of the Dead and Knight of the Chalice was a good idea, I think paladins need a 3rd PrE as well.

    Bowserkoopa,

    I still don't like Bardchers

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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Do you understand anything at all about the game mechanics or do you just make poorly-thought strawman arguments for the hell of it?

    Nobody is asking TWFing/THFing to have the same defensive value of S&B (except for the monk enthusiast, but they whine about everything anyway). We're asking for the stance to work the same as it does not on live where the shield absolutely adds a bunch more defense.

    And seriously, the defensive trees are still garbage right now. It's especially true when 99% of the time tanks aren't needed at all. Making them worse is just plain dumb.


    like i said, they are not terrible for what they are. the problem is, what they are is tanking trees. and as many have pointed out, tanking is hardly ever really needed. but this IS a tank tree. it is NOT a dps tree. so for what the tree is designed for, it is not TERRIBLE.

    as far as the stances go, i think you misunderstood. i do agree that TWF/THF should be able to use the stance. what im saying is that the equipment should be part of the bonuses, such as threat generation/defense should be linked to the shield. and that if taking DoS or SD, your TWF or THF SHOULD offer defensive bonuses. however, they should offer defense and reduction as if it were a buckler or maybe a little better. They could link all the bonuses to armors and shields. heavy armors and bigger shields get bigger bonuses. So maybe a guy in leather and swinging a great sword will only get a small amount of threat bonus and small amount of the defensive gains. but still have the HP and stats from the stance. while the tank who opts for heavy armor and a tower shield will get all the stats, threat, defense, and whatever else they choose to put in there.

    i also think that as a "tank" tree there should be some "on-hit" effects that generate a single target intim or a short duration stun or shaken effect. and again, these are effected by equipment being worn. the problem with the tank trees is taht they are very one dimensional.

    and some built in reactives that generate false life or small hp heals or a stacking buff that acts as a damage shield. the longer the battle goes, the more it favors the tank as a substitute to dps. they could base their effectiveness of them on on your con bonus even. i dont know. there needs to be utility. something that makes the tree viable in all aspects like most other trees.
    Last edited by Alcedes; 07-30-2013 at 12:26 PM. Reason: more grammatical errors than i care to have read in one post. sheesh

  17. #37
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrtigo View Post
    I think perhaps when/if we get a 3rd PRe maybe we'll come out ahead with the other 32 points to go somewhere. That fabled Purple Dragon Knight PrE maybe. And while I think combining Hunter of the Dead and Knight of the Chalice was a good idea, I think paladins need a 3rd PrE as well.

    Bowserkoopa,

    I still don't like Bardchers
    They need to ditch Purple Dragon Knight as a PRE (its a race now anyways) Fighter need a tactics focused tree that augments tactics feat such as lowering the cool down of stunning blow to 6 seconds, making sunder lower fortification more, and Trip add a slow effect when it misses. It should also give back the +4 or so DC that has been removed.

  18. #38
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    They need to ditch Purple Dragon Knight as a PRE (its a race now anyways) Fighter need a tactics focused tree that augments tactics feat such as lowering the cool down of stunning blow to 6 seconds, making sunder lower fortification more, and Trip add a slow effect when it misses. It should also give back the +4 or so DC that has been removed.
    All this should be put in Kensai.

    I know this is a stalwart gripe thread, but I'm finding Kensai to be a little weak as well.

  19. #39
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcedes View Post
    like i said, they are not terrible for what they are. the problem is, what they are is tanking trees. and as many have pointed out, tanking is hardly ever really needed. but this IS a tank tree. it is NOT a dps tree. so for what the tree is designed for, it is not TERRIBLE.
    Yes it is terrible. Tanks aren't needed for 99% of the game. Making them worse than they are on live is dumb because they do not need to be nerfed.

    48 APs to be worse than they are on live is absolutely ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alcedes View Post
    as far as the stances go, i think you misunderstood. i do agree that TWF/THF should be able to use the stance. what im saying is that the equipment should be part of the bonuses, such as threat generation/defense should be linked to the shield. and that if taking DoS or SD, your TWF or THF SHOULD offer defensive bonuses. however, they should offer defense and reduction as if it were a buckler or maybe a little better. They could link all the bonuses to armors and shields. heavy armors and bigger shields get bigger bonuses. So maybe a guy in leather and swinging a great sword will only get a small amount of threat bonus and small amount of the defensive gains. but still have the HP and stats from the stance. while the tank who opts for heavy armor and a tower shield will get all the stats, threat, defense, and whatever else they choose to put in there.

    Once again I question your knowledge of the game mechanics, do you even play this game?

    What is unbalance as to how things work now on live? Nothing. It is fine on live. None of how this works should change.

  20. #40
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    i question if you understand the game mechanics personally troll. you really think the STANCE not working for TWF/THF is the problem here?

    like you keep saying over and over agian...as if i dont know it (even tho i have flat out said i agree with it) tanking is not needed most of the time.

    the problem with the tree is not the stance. the problem with teh tree is that it has no utility. you are a tank. always. and forever. and having option to drop a shield and remain in stance is not going to fix it. i mean seriously. you really think 6 str and 6 con is the problem? lol

    the problem is that the whole damn tree is all defense. no little bonuses in there that effective sword and shielf one way and twf/thf another. you cant have a 48 point tree with no dps options in it. the defense in the tree is fine. the cost needs to reduced and they need to throw in dps that applies based on gear

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