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  1. #81
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    considering in the last developer chat on Lamannia Vargouille essentially said "People don't really need high Spell Power."
    Actually, he said "people don't need to maximize Spell Power". And right after, "You might find something in another tree that is better [for your build] than +5 spell power".

    I also believe the 1 SP per point on tree is bad design. Just pointing that what Varg said was not what you quoted. "high" and "maximum" are different concepts.
    Main: Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist [<o>]

    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma

    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  2. #82
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    Actually, he said "people don't need to maximize Spell Power". And right after, "You might find something in another tree that is better [for your build] than +5 spell power".

    I also believe the 1 SP per point on tree is bad design. Just pointing that what Varg said was not what you quoted. "high" and "maximum" are different concepts.
    If the differences were under 10 spwr I'd agree with you. However it's not, technically by the dictionary you're right. Functionally you're wrong. If you were right people wouldn't spend money on 120 spwr sticks when they have 116 or whatever the number is for the next tier down.

  3. #83
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    Actually, he said "people don't need to maximize Spell Power". And right after, "You might find something in another tree that is better [for your build] than +5 spell power".

    I also believe the 1 SP per point on tree is bad design. Just pointing that what Varg said was not what you quoted. "high" and "maximum" are different concepts.

    But what about the folks who believe that the only 'viable spell power' is 'max spell power?'

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    Actually, he said "people don't need to maximize Spell Power". And right after, "You might find something in another tree that is better [for your build] than +5 spell power".
    I will correct that, thanks. But the point still stands. It is a uniquely caster hardship to lose out on your class' abilities by taking enhancements from your Racial or another class' tree. Melee types can max out everything that they want from their primary tree with dozens of points to spare, but casters either need to buy up Enhancements that they do not necessarily want just to get the Spell Power, or else lower their potential by trying to branch out into non-caster specific trees. Except Divine Disciple, for whatever reason.

  5. #85
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    I think that's the crux of the biscuit right there. Either you look forward to new idea and challenges, or you ***** and moan about everything that comes along that's new.

    And many of the complainers are incredibly dramatic. You'd think that actual living people were going to be affected by these changes, not made up toons in computer generated world.
    LOL. Right?


    I guess if I were an 'accumulator' then I would be upset that my Max Ubermunchkin is getting completely re-tooled, but I'm a 'builder' so I'm looking forward to the new system to see what stuff I can make.

    Cue the I'm a horrible human being insults because I don't shed tears over virtual problems in 3... 2... 1...
    Last edited by Postumus; 07-03-2013 at 04:16 PM.

  6. #86
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    I copied my Live pale master to test...

    I ended up with more spell power, and a bunch of spell like abilities, and more spell power in more areas because the 'auto-grant' 100 to each spell power at cap.

    For both my monk, and my Pale Master the new enhancement systems was a power increase... Not day and night power increase, but a real power tick UP.

    Now if you DO NOT want more damage, if you DO NOT want more flexibility in characters, then by all means, rage about the enhancement pass. If you think the power creep is killing the game, because now you hit harder, run faster, can hit higher spell power numbers, AND have magic missile as a SLA. Uh... sure, rage about it.

    We can debate if the enhancement pass is "needed" or not. But casters are getting power bump, at least the casters I play. As well as melee... At least the melee I play.

    All in all, it was easily a 20% increase in my character power... Most of that is lower level loaded too... None of this cap 20 to get MOST of the power. I should make a level 15 to see the power curve change... It is pretty noticeably.

    Removal of feats required for arcane archer, pale master, as well as ninja spy? Yeah, no dodge, or mobility required? No necro focus feats? You can swap between anything, nearly anytime with a flew mouse clicks? No more changing out feats to move around?

    It's a HUGE HUGE HUGE flexibility boon.
    Last edited by 350zguy; 07-03-2013 at 03:41 PM.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by 350zguy View Post
    All in all, it was easily a 20% increase in my character power... Most of that is lower level loaded too... None of this cap 20 to get MOST of the power. I should make a level 15 to see the power curve change... It is pretty noticeably.
    You are apparently one of the very rare spell casters who never got critical hits, if you believe that you are gaining overall damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    I guess if I were an 'accumulator' then I would be upset that my Max Ubermunchkin is getting completely re-tooled, but I'm a 'builder' so I'm looking forward to the new system to see what stuff I can make.
    The problem with this mentality is that it ignores the fact that while many classes are getting quite substantial power boosts by the new system, as well as new ways to build characters, casters are essentially being shoved into very tiny boxes with little room for flexibility and being told that they are going to have to like it there.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    You are apparently one of the very rare spell casters who never got critical hits, if you believe that you are gaining overall damage.
    I saw the critical changes down tic some... but with a 10% increase in overall spell power... As well as "more" damage options, I'm not so sure that not hitting for 16k in one hit is really a HUGE loss...

    Being able to max/emp a SLA 2 spell point geek, as well as be a PM is a BIG increase to the PMs.

    Maybe sorcs will cry some at loosing a few crit%, but at the same time if you get 10 MORE spell power, you're average hits will be higher. The jury is out, but the 2 classes I moved over.

    It is quite the bump in power. I was getting pretty sad about my mage on live... on test, it breathed some new life into his pale dead corpse.

    People hate change... I get it.

  9. #89
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    If the differences were under 10 spwr I'd agree with you. However it's not, technically by the dictionary you're right. Functionally you're wrong. If you were right people wouldn't spend money on 120 spwr sticks when they have 116 or whatever the number is for the next tier down.
    And yet, you can count in your fingers how many people activelly carry those +25 alchemical SP potions and drink them every 3 minutes.
    Main: Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist [<o>]

    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma

    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  10. #90
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    And yet, you can count in your fingers how many people activelly carry those +25 alchemical SP potions and drink them every 3 minutes.
    Every caster I play with.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakestor View Post
    Please, for the love of all that is holy, get this new enhancement system in place soon! I'm not the smartest player around, I acknowledge that. The current enhancement UI is incredibly difficult to use especially when you are out of your comfort zone with your build, and you are trying to figure out where you want to go from where you are currently.

    Buggy, 70% finished, whatever.... Please, get it done.

    The current version on Lammania is a HUGE improvement over what we have now. IMO, that is why.
    You know, if it was simply the UI that sucked, then all they’d need to do is change the UI. Really, this is not all that complicated to do.

    So I don’t get why they’d have to re-do all the enhancements to go with the UI.

    Not exactly pleased that my arcanes are going to be taking it in the shorts with SP reductions. You know, I’m not a big gear-farmer, but I kinda like what I have. Not all that thrilled about having to pitch the stuff and start over.

    Then again, I’m talking from ignorance here as I know only a smattering of the ****-storm that is about to descend on DDO when the enhancement pass comes.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by 350zguy View Post
    I copied my Live pale master to test...

    I ended up with more spell power, and a bunch of spell like abilities, and more spell power in more areas because the 'auto-grant' 100 to each spell power at cap.

    For both my monk, and my Pale Master the new enhancement systems was a power increase... Not day and night power increase, but a real power tick UP.

    Now if you DO NOT want more damage, if you DO NOT want more flexibility in characters, then by all means, rage about the enhancement pass. If you think the power creep is killing the game, because now you hit harder, run faster, can hit higher spell power numbers, AND have magic missile as a SLA. Uh... sure, rage about it.

    We can debate if the enhancement pass is "needed" or not. But casters are getting power bump, at least the casters I play. As well as melee... At least the melee I play.

    All in all, it was easily a 20% increase in my character power... Most of that is lower level loaded too... None of this cap 20 to get MOST of the power. I should make a level 15 to see the power curve change... It is pretty noticeably.

    Removal of feats required for arcane archer, pale master, as well as ninja spy? Yeah, no dodge, or mobility required? No necro focus feats? You can swap between anything, nearly anytime with a flew mouse clicks? No more changing out feats to move around?

    It's a HUGE HUGE HUGE flexibility boon.
    Since your off topic I will too briefly. Even if it was in fact a power increase which wasnt the purpose of this thread, does that mean the mobs do not have respectively more hp? Are you most powerful at lvl 1 or 25 hmm?

  13. #93
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Short version: Incomplete surveys skewing the results.
    It's a good initiative, and for that I applaud them, but think about it:

    If you log in, check things out, and like stuff, you just have to click boxes.
    If you don't, and there's no particular detail, you've got to fill out paragraphs.

    I'd bet they get a lot of actionable feedback on the overall structure, but a lot more noise to wade through when it comes to sorting out particulars of classes, given the vague nature of the questions.

    It's like a lot of stuff under old management: great idea hamstrung by not enough follow-through.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    Since your off topic I will too briefly. Even if it was in fact a power increase which wasnt the purpose of this thread, does that mean the mobs do not have respectively more hp? Are you most powerful at lvl 1 or 25 hmm?
    I'm on a 25... It was a bump up on my monk... for sure.

    I didn't note any HP changes on mobs... So, I railed mobs faster, with more options.

    I guess to be MORE on topic... Why not an enhancement overhaul. (It's not really a pass, in fact in changes how prestige classes work on fundamental levels, where changing out feats, and retooling characters across the board will happen.)

    I think it will be a positive change overall... I'm excited to try it out on multiple characters, and liked the effect on my characters. If I wanted to play MY PM more, I would still need to re-feat to get away from DC based caster to more of a shock damage, but I could change spec, and chase some steady damage easier, without having to re-feat.

    You could always BUILD a character and do both, that is flexible. But now you can just change around your existing character far easier.

  15. #95
    Community Member Shmuel's Avatar
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    Why? I am willing to bet it is so they can in the future sell new, uber-buffed, enhancement trees in the ddo store. make something that cannot generate income generate some.
    Shmuel Xadin Xadins Errand Mohnster Yitzhak

  16. #96
    Uber Uber Completionist
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnhelm View Post
    Hello, I'm an actual living person. I'm going to be affected by these changes. That includes the lost time and effort of making builds that will no longer work, more time and effort learning the new system, and some hard feelings on having to change horses in mid-stream to learn a completely new style of play on every character I have (currently at 12 actives).
    As much as I understand what you're saying, I would like to think that a few of us old timers would just roll with the punches as we did before.

    You need to learn new stuff. Get over it. I'm working on a project that might make it easier to digest, or it might just make it a thousand times worse Time will tell.

    With my personal nerd-rage turned down to "minimum", I don't see anything worse than the nerf to the batman builds, and yet somehow, despite all odds, we survived that one.

  17. #97
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    I will correct that, thanks. But the point still stands. It is a uniquely caster hardship to lose out on your class' abilities by taking enhancements from your Racial or another class' tree. Melee types can max out everything that they want from their primary tree with dozens of points to spare, but casters either need to buy up Enhancements that they do not necessarily want just to get the Spell Power, or else lower their potential by trying to branch out into non-caster specific trees. Except Divine Disciple, for whatever reason.
    what about melees who want spell power and devotion lines?

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    what about melees who want spell power and devotion lines?
    The Spell Utility tree, open to all blue-bar classes!

    [One can hope for the future.]

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shmuel View Post
    Why? I am willing to bet it is so they can in the future sell new, uber-buffed, enhancement trees in the ddo store. make something that cannot generate income generate some.
    Yeah, I can see it now! "NEW in the DDO Store! Enhanced Enhancement trees! Buy these and you can make....the same builds you could before the Enhancement Pass! It is awesome! Now that you have respecced your characters for the Shiny New Enhancement System, you will be able to respec them once again to be...just like they were before! Buy now! Only 2495 TP per character!"
    All that is wrong with DDO, life, taxes, poltics, religion, music, fast food, education, the criminal justice system, the weather, society, the universe, and previously-discontinued-but-now-on-their-way-back snack cakes, is all the fault of Wizards of the Coast. I know this because Fred told me so, and Mind Flayers are smart.

  20. #100
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    Yeah, I can see it now! "NEW in the DDO Store! Enhanced Enhancement trees! Buy these and you can make....the same builds you could before the Enhancement Pass! It is awesome! Now that you have respecced your characters for the Shiny New Enhancement System, you will be able to respec them once again to be...just like they were before! Buy now! Only 2495 TP per character!"
    You forgot that it won't persist thru tr.

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