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  1. #21
    2016 DDO Players Council Jeromio's Avatar
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    I don't think what's currently on Lama-land is what players have been asking for. It's some kind of odd dev vision, that they now are pushing through no matter what.

    What we currently have on live is a racial tree, a class tree and one or more PRE-trees (often half-finished)... all meshed up in a horrible UI.

    What the players asked for was to get finished PREs.

    What the devs came up with (as has been presented on Lama-land):
    1. New, and better UI. Personally, I think it's a great improvement compared to the current one.
    2. They removed the class trees, and instead split up and moved the class enhancements to various prestige trees. In doing so, they made it difficult to cherry-pick all previous basic class enhancements due to the point restrictions... it's often extra bad when multi-classing. Some very important basic class enhancements were even removed completely (e.g. ranger devotion).
    3. No finished PREs. Instead the not finished ones became considered as finished. Some previous ones (that were finished) got merged. A couple of completely new PREs were added, one of which nobody understands its purpose (Protection for divines). Some are still missing completely (e.g. Divine Avenger and Wild Mage).

    I do not think that we're getting what we want.

    Please, start over, make it right.
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  2. #22
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Guys . . . the overall framework of the ENH pass is good. There's nothing wrong with it. What's nice about the modular part if it is it's easier to add/change stuff later.

    The devil is in the particular details so please focus your *****ing about those details that need to be addressed. I'd say they're about 70% at a good system. l

  3. #23
    2016 DDO Players Council Jeromio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Guys . . . the overall framework of the ENH pass is good. There's nothing wrong with it. What's nice about the modular part if it is it's easier to add/change stuff later.

    The devil is in the particular details so please focus your *****ing about those details that need to be addressed. I'd say they're about 70% at a good system. l
    Given Turbine's track record, I don't expect a lot of changes after the expansion, at least not before the servers are closed in a couple of years.

    If you look at what was actually addressed and changed between phase 1 and 2, 6 more weeks is nothing. We'll practically have what is on LL now when the expansion hits.

    I think it's better if Turbine worked another year on the ENH pass.
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  4. #24
    Community Member Drakestor's Avatar
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    Please, for the love of all that is holy, get this new enhancement system in place soon! I'm not the smartest player around, I acknowledge that. The current enhancement UI is incredibly difficult to use especially when you are out of your comfort zone with your build, and you are trying to figure out where you want to go from where you are currently.

    Buggy, 70% finished, whatever.... Please, get it done.

    The current version on Lammania is a HUGE improvement over what we have now. IMO, that is why.

  5. #25
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    Because, despite all the crying, even in this thread, the number of players on the forum, and then the ones that are complaining, are a very small percentage of the player base. Lord knows I don't want the vocal folks here determining anything about the game I play. SO many terrible ideas. . .

  6. #26
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    I do like the idea of what they are trying to achieve, you shouldn't need to use a third party character planner to plan your character in a game. I also didn't know about prestige classes until I bumped into them online after bout si months of playing and obviously that isn't an ideal situation.

    I'd love to have seen them just add a new UI to the current system and then start with the subtle tweaks to get it to where they need it. A big bang approach to this is just too risky given Turbine's QA record.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by fTdOmen View Post
    According to the surveys it's actually very popular, and it looks like it will be released with the expansion pack.

    If you want to prevent this, make sure to fill out negative constructive surveys and hope.
    I have placed the misinformation in bold. It has been stated multiple times by devs that the expansion does not include the enhancement pass.
    The Great Gnome Conspiracy was here!

  8. #28
    Community Member Phemt81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    So um, I guess my question is....if nobody seems to want this Enhancement Pass thingy to happen at all, Turbine is still pushing it....why, exactly?
    Cause if we act as a whole, being constructive and pro active, we can tell them how to adjust enhancements and let them be the best for balace/playability concern.

    The other way is to troll and try to keep the bugs and exploits so the minority of the playerbase can still take profit from the new system.

    It is really up to us.
    How to revamp past life reward system <--- working again
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We absolutely planned for Fighter to still have Haste Boost. It's absolutely a bug. Any similar issues that look "wrong" to any player should be bugged.
    Developers should fix this

  9. #29
    Community Member Grosbeak07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Guys . . . the overall framework of the ENH pass is good. There's nothing wrong with it. What's nice about the modular part if it is it's easier to add/change stuff later.

    The devil is in the particular details so please focus your *****ing about those details that need to be addressed. I'd say they're about 70% at a good system. l
    ^^ This

    While there is still a lot of work to do on the details of the enhancements. In general your characters will be generally no worse or better than they currently are. I'm sure there will be some odd builds and flavor of the month builds which will get screwed over, but then again they don't call them Flavor of the month builds for nothing... or we would all be still evading in full plate and have Batman builds.

    I agree, that we are at about 75% of the way there. Some trees need more work than others and all need fine tuning, but the end results won't be drastically different than how it is on live now.
    Magical Rings are well... magical. - Gandalf

  10. #30
    Community Member Grosbeak07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lerincho View Post
    I have placed the misinformation in bold. It has been stated multiple times by devs that the expansion does not include the enhancement pass.
    Initially the devs stated that, but later hints all seem to point they are looking for it to go with the Expansion. They will never say for certain if it is in or not, so that they can pull it out at the last minute if needed.
    Magical Rings are well... magical. - Gandalf

  11. #31
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    The EP IS an improvement, overall, because its going to make a LOT more builds viable.

    People that don't like it tend to be the ones that play whatever cookie-cut, min-max build is currently ruling Epics. Those builds ARE the ones that are going to stand to lose the most when things are "balanced", because they're the most unbalanced right now.

    However, the EP is going to add a lot more flexibility. Things that are currently not endgame-viable will be. Things like full time ranged combat, or Dex-based builds, for Elves and Rangers, or Mechanic (auto-trapping! Its no longer just easier to heal through traps on a zerg run)

    Hell, Elves and Drow in general will be a viable race again, and to a lesser extent Dwarf and Halfling, it wont just be Helves for dilly, Humans for a feat, or WF arcanes.

    It wont just be everyone wielding Khopeshes anymore, either...classes are finally getting enough incentive to use their "class" weapons (like Q-staves/Daggers for Rogues, etc.)

    I also disagree that multiclassing is dead....I don't really see that many capstones that are worth it, not when you can take 1-5 levels in a different class and get access to 3 other Enhancement trees. Take 1 Druid, and you can get Beguile, for instance, and basically lock down every enemy you're fighting, even bosses. 6 Ranger is still an all-in-one TWF+Ranged toolbox, now with a couple clickable attacks too.

  12. #32
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakestor View Post
    Please, for the love of all that is holy, get this new enhancement system in place soon! I'm not the smartest player around, I acknowledge that. The current enhancement UI is incredibly difficult to use especially when you are out of your comfort zone with your build, and you are trying to figure out where you want to go from where you are currently.
    The current Enhancement UI layout is difficult but "trying to figure out where you want to go" is not. Simply "left clicking" on "Show not available" and some mouse scrolling is basic computer skills.

    Buggy, 70% finished, whatever.... Please, get it done.

    The current version on Lammania is a HUGE improvement over what we have now. IMO, that is why.
    The graphical layout is better; the revision on what classes should/shouldn't do is not. Releasing "Buggy, 70% finished, whatever..." has already caused huge problems with declining player bases for DDO. So unless you are directly calling for MORE declining player bases, you should expect something better, especially after 1+ year of work.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosbeak07 View Post
    Initially the devs stated that, but later hints all seem to point they are looking for it to go with the Expansion. They will never say for certain if it is in or not, so that they can pull it out at the last minute if needed.
    Smart money would be anticipating that the enhancement pass accompanies U20 and the changes to reincarnation.
    The Great Gnome Conspiracy was here!

  14. #34
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Guys . . . the overall framework of the ENH pass is good. There's nothing wrong with it. What's nice about the modular part if it is it's easier to add/change stuff later.

    The devil is in the particular details so please focus your *****ing about those details that need to be addressed. I'd say they're about 70% at a good system. l
    70% of the system is good? Maybe you should quantify your answer. I've looked at the enhancement pass. Other than the UI layout (Which I don't think is the problem), it has many problems a lot more than 30%.

    As some have pointed out, which for some reason posters ignore, core enhancements are buried deep in tree's making them difficult for players to access. I think what is escaping many is "Core Enhancements" are enhancements that programmers build around. So content from U9 to present for example, are built around players having X, Y, and Z. If you strip those away from players or make them more difficult to acquire, if not impossible, you start a domino effect. During "Alpha" testing, this "Domino effect" occurred (Which some are calling bugs). Now to Turbines credit, they did call it an "Alpha Testing" but what reasoning would you tie spell power to "Int?" (as one example). There were many questions about Turbines reasoning that did not make sense, like locking Cleric's into "Healing only" while excluding Favored Souls (Never saw the Druid pass ). (Pure) Melee seemed to come out of the whole mess the least unscathed but even cracks showed up in their tree's when running EE content. My point is, calling this "a bug" is incorrect. Saying that the product is 70% finished is being HIGHLY optimistic.

  15. #35
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Oh dear...

    Quoting MajMal on the Cesspool again :
    Enhancements are 99% sure to be in the xpack. Data shows for the most part people are happy. The ones that are obviously mentioned...clerics, sorcs exc...are all being examined again. I don't think a redesign of the whole thing is needed at this point. The biggest reason to do the system is so we can add on easily later.
    You even get the full quote... No I can't hotlink it as it's infraction worthy, if you want to look at it with your eyes go where it was posted.
    On G-Land : Flavilandile, Blacklock, Yaelle, Millishande, Larilandile, Gildalinde, Tenalafel, and many other...

  16. #36
    2016 DDO Players Council Jeromio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lerincho View Post
    Smart money would be anticipating that the enhancement pass accompanies U20 and the changes to reincarnation.
    Sorry, but you're incorrect. According to "undercover dev", there's a 99% chance it will be in the x-pack. They have about 6 more weeks to work on the ENH pass.
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  17. #37
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    70% of the system is good? Maybe you should quantify your answer. I've looked at the enhancement pass. Other than the UI layout (Which I don't think is the problem), it has many problems a lot more than 30%.
    We have feedback forums and I haven't seen you post squat over there.

    Post SPECIFICS as to what is wrong.

    Fill out bug reports on everything.

    Just saying "this is bad" doesn't help, you need to say "this is bad because . . ."

    The stuff we saw in beta was better than alpha. Yes more needs to change, focussed feedback with actionable ideas might get address. "Scrap it and start over" will not.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeromio View Post
    I don't think what's currently on Lama-land is what players have been asking for. It's some kind of odd dev vision, that they now are pushing through no matter what.
    Giving players what they were asking for was never the goal, heck, even making the system better wasn't. The devs just don't like the current enhancements GUI:
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it
    But instead of making a new GUI, they'd rather make a new system to cram into their ED "tree" based GUI.

    And I guess it is true that the key to running a MMO is to never let your players forget that you're a WoW clone - with these trees the new players will feel just like home. WoW has to be doing _something_ right, so let's just copy and it'll be an improvement, right?


    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Guys . . . the overall framework of the ENH pass is good. There's nothing wrong with it. What's nice about the modular part if it is it's easier to add/change stuff later.
    Please read the following quote, and then tell me how modular and flexible the system is, and how easy it is to add stuff. Also, how they haven't really managed to include spell power, yay for modular?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    Ten Thousand Stars will still exist in some form. It was too different from the other elemental special attacks [...], which is why we created a new air attack.

  19. #39
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    I look forward to the new enhancements. I'm not a min/maxer, so maybe I don't see the ultimate problem in not being able to, for example, heal as well on a DPS specced character after the enhancement pass as before. Maybe I'm just old school, but I feel people should be trading healing for damage and vice versa. I don't see why some classes needed to be proficient in everything that doesn't rely on feats due to how powerful the current Enhancement system is, and I don't understand why people are upset that the Enhancement Pass will basically make you choose a specialization rather than allowing you to continue being a jack of all trades.

    I feel the latter is better for the game's health, and people are probably just knee-jerking because it's a change and they lose the power they've had for so long.

  20. #40
    Community Member blackdae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    The EP IS an improvement, overall, because its going to make a LOT more builds viable.

    People that don't like it tend to be the ones that play whatever cookie-cut, min-max build is currently ruling Epics. Those builds ARE the ones that are going to stand to lose the most when things are "balanced", because they're the most unbalanced right now.
    Nice assumption you made here.. I'm not one of the "ones that play whatever cookie-cut, min-max build is currently ruling Epics." I've just spent a lot of time in building my tank.. then I logged in Lama and saw what they did to DoS.. and my toon was screwed..

    I think I can be "angry"..

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