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  1. #1
    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    Default Enhancement Pass, Why?

    Everything I've read so far on the forums, from numerous posters, seems to indicate that DDO players, as a whole, do not like the idea one bit.

    I've mostly been trying to figure out exactly how he whole thing's going work, so I can plan to change my toons accordingly. Admittedly, I'm failing to find any real info, but many opinions. I have yet to read any post from anyone saying anything to the effect of "yeah, it'll be a good thing". Not one. And alot of the stuff I've read has been on the Lamm threads, so it's coming from people who've playtested this New Thing.

    So um, I guess my question is....if nobody seems to want this Enhancement Pass thingy to happen at all, Turbine is still pushing it....why, exactly?
    Last edited by Philibusta; 07-01-2013 at 09:27 PM. Reason: clarity
    All that is wrong with DDO, life, taxes, poltics, religion, music, fast food, education, the criminal justice system, the weather, society, the universe, and previously-discontinued-but-now-on-their-way-back snack cakes, is all the fault of Wizards of the Coast. I know this because Fred told me so, and Mind Flayers are smart.

  2. #2
    Community Member GlassJaw's Avatar
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    It's a very good question, and one that I'm wondering myself.

    When the enhancement pass was announced long ago, I envisioned three things:

    1. Clean up the UI.
    2. Remove/improve/fix/consolidate useless enhancements (like Wand DC).
    3. Finally add all the missing prestige classes.

    But from I've read, it's more like a complete overhaul than a "pass", and one that I'm not exactly sure is for the better.

    I've said this is another thread but I've been playing since 2006 and have survived every major nerf and revamp this game has undergone. That said, I no longer have the stomach to have to respec all of my characters again, which may or may not turn out the same in the end. There are too many games competing for my time these days.

  3. #3
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    Everything I've read so far on the forums, from numerous posters, seems to indicate that DDO players, as a whole, do not like the idea one bit.

    I've mostly been trying to figure out exactly how he whole thing's going work, so I can plan to change my toons accordingly. Admittedly, I'm failing to find any real info, but many opinions. I have yet to read any post from anyone saying anything to the effect of "yeah, it'll be a good thing". Not one. And alot of the stuff I've read has been on the Lamm threads, so it's coming from people who've playtested this New Thing.

    So um, I guess my question is....if nobody seems to want this Enhancement Pass thingy to happen at all, Turbine is still pushing it....why, exactly?
    Officially it was because it was going to make DDO more new/returning player friendly. When the original release of information was given players were excited (as was I) but many were cautious until more information was available.

    When the enhancement pass was due for release/preview (end of last summer?) they postponed it because it wasn't ready. This gave players more optimism that Turbine was going to "do it right." Unfortunately none of the players had seen what they had other than a few screen shots and "Doom" threads began.

    Fast forward to the "Alpha" release and players were not happy with what they saw for 1+ year of work. Worse, someone at Turbine decided to handicap the testing thinking this would provide valuable information to the number crunchers. Worse, many of the things talked about on the "Doom" threads from almost a year ago remained (about the enhancement pass).

    Currently I do not know where the enhancement pass lays or if they are in "Beta" testing but I have not heard anything. Either because players hate the new boards or because Turbine wasn't happy with the criticism. Considering that Update 19 is around the corner and Beta testing/Lama is usually a free preview of all the new bugs/problems Update 19 will bring, it should be interesting.

    So the short answer to the long wall of text...
    Turbine has spent over a year of money pushing a piece of cylindrical brown mess from one developer to the next and spent resources on coding and debugging. That is why they are going to release the steaming pile on our laps for our consumption.

  4. #4
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    I have yet to read any post from anyone saying anything to the effect of "yeah, it'll be a good thing". Not one.
    Take this one as your first, then.

    I like the new enhancements. Period. If they were going to be released exactly as they are on Lamannia right now (obvious bugs aside, like having to close and reopen the enhancement windows now and again because your "points spent" freeze), I would say it is a net positive from what we have on live.

    Sure, some builds will die, but other builds will rise. This happened every time a new race, class, prestige class, level cap, or feat pack arrived. And also happened with the spell pass (U9) and AC pass (U14). And will happen again. And will keep happening as long as the game is online.
    Main: Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist [<o>]

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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    Take this one as your first, then.

    I like the new enhancements. Period. If they were going to be released exactly as they are on Lamannia right now (obvious bugs aside, like having to close and reopen the enhancement windows now and again because your "points spent" freeze), I would say it is a net positive from what we have on live.

    Sure, some builds will die, but other builds will rise. This happened every time a new race, class, prestige class, level cap, or feat pack arrived. And also happened with the spell pass (U9) and AC pass (U14). And will happen again. And will keep happening as long as the game is online.
    Still some issues, but the overall I think it'll be good. I like the druid casting changes. The new cleric tree in most recent version is good. Still some obvious balance issues. The arcane trees need another pass, for example. FvS could use a 3rd tree, etc. But overall, if they do a few more of these passes, it'll be good.
    Last edited by chrisdinus7; 07-01-2013 at 11:07 PM.

  6. #6
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    The angriest people tend to be the loudest.

    It's also far from being released, so many of the problems people have can be fixed before it is.

  7. #7
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    why? Because that is the result of hours of time spent. And that is the excuse for why all the other stuff that was said to have been being worked on is not there.

    Like it or not that thing is going through, otherwise their would be no other explanation. That thing is the front.
    Through avarice, evil smiles; through insanity, it sings.

  8. #8
    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    So um, I guess my question is....if nobody seems to want this Enhancement Pass thingy to happen at all, Turbine is still pushing it....why, exactly?
    According to the surveys it's actually very popular, and it looks like it will be released with the expansion pack.

    If you want to prevent this, make sure to fill out negative constructive surveys and hope.

  9. #9
    Community Member Jay203's Avatar
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    it was meant to make the enhancement system better

    but atm it seems to be far worse than what we have right now...

    only good thing about it is that it looks cleaner now
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
    to make it easier for those of you that wants to avoid me in game, all my characters are in "Bladesworn Mercenaries"

  10. #10
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zirun View Post
    It's also far from being released, so many of the problems people have can be fixed before it is.
    Hi welcome, what planet?

  11. #11
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    I like the new enhancements. A much needed change. Some things we need to be fine tuned later on.
    Join Date: Nov 2009

  12. #12
    Community Member Jay203's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    I like the new enhancements. A much needed change. Some things we need to be fine tuned later on.
    it needs to be tuned before release, otherwise it will render a lot of characters unplayable and end up wasting resources/money to respec
    then again, if that's their goal to begin with....
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
    to make it easier for those of you that wants to avoid me in game, all my characters are in "Bladesworn Mercenaries"

  13. #13
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    I like some aspects of the enhancement pass and dislike others. Mostly, I like the finished pres and added abilities to classes that were seriously hurting. (Bards anyone?) None of these things required an enhancement remodel, and could easily have simply been added, but there's nothing wrong with slapping a new coat of paint on things once in a while to attract new users.

    It's pretty clear that the main reason for the pass is to make the system easier to use. I'm not sure it's really all that much easier, but I guess it will require less understanding of the system to get something closer to being right. But it's still a complex system that takes time and experience to master. It will simply be more "picture book" for new users. Which I'm sure is the primary reason. DDO needs a large, steady influx of new users.

    And for all the doom, I don't really care if a toon or two has to be respecced. It might make things interesting.

    I am deeply concerned that there will be massive bugs upon it's release though. History has shown that this will be a concern.

  14. #14
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    I like some aspects of the enhancement pass and dislike others. Mostly, I like the finished pres and added abilities to classes that were seriously hurting. (Bards anyone?) None of these things required an enhancement remodel, and could easily have simply been added, but there's nothing wrong with slapping a new coat of paint on things once in a while to attract new users.

    It's pretty clear that the main reason for the pass is to make the system easier to use. I'm not sure it's really all that much easier, but I guess it will require less understanding of the system to get something closer to being right. But it's still a complex system that takes time and experience to master. It will simply be more "picture book" for new users. Which I'm sure is the primary reason. DDO needs a large, steady influx of new users.

    And for all the doom, I don't really care if a toon or two has to be respecced. It might make things interesting.

    I am deeply concerned that there will be massive bugs upon it's release though. History has shown that this will be a concern.
    Bards?
    They took 2 prestiges and mashed them into one tree. They left the most universally hated enhancement requirement (wand heightening).
    For the other tree, they took the level 12 abilities and made it the level 20 capstone. They tacked on a piece of code they had already written for Iconics without the thought or realization that it has no effect on the classes. They added a bunch of marginal abilities (when you're hit by cold, you get cold damage!) and made them proc so infrequently they're laughable (12 second buff that's renewed on vorpal).

    They're not finished, they're just spread out so that it isn't obvious that they're undone.



    None of the enhancement abilities scale with your character. A Level 2 Bard can have a Skaldic Rage that's 1:36 long (5 AP). A Level 20 Bard has a Skaldic Rage thats.... 1:36 long.

    They disregarded or just flat out never heard the numerous complaints about why playing a bard isn't fun. Feat starved. Song duration too short. Song animation too long.


    Have you actually tried playing a bard over on Lammania? Warchanters are NOT fun. They're drowning in clickies. The animations are, once again, half the length of the buff durations.

    The points in tree system is highly restrictive. you have to spend so many points on junk in your primary prestige tree that there aren't enough points to to spread around to your other multiclasses.

    A Warchanter's only hope on getting any spellpower for devotion and self healing is to invest in *not his prestige*. Today my Warchanter spends 10 AP on live to get 80 Spell power. If I still want to actually BE a warchanter and get what's currently the level 12 presitge ability of Medium armor, I need to spend at minimum 32 AP in the warchanter tree. Just being level 20 pure is not enough for the capstone, you need to spend 40+ points in a specific tree. That leaves 38 points that I can spend on some stuff that maybe I'd find useful in the spellsinger tree, but amounts to only 38 Universal Spell Power. Unless I invest heavily into a cross-class skill, Heal.

    80 Devotion for 10 AP, vs 38 spellpower for 38 AP in abilities that I DO NOT WANT for this character but it's the only way to get the healing power they seem to think is not core to the class.




    How about Spellsinger? If you tried to put every point you have into Spellsinger, despite it being 2 trees mashed together, you can only spend 65 AP in the tree. The Healing/Castery bard prestige maxxes out at 65 spellpower. The other 15 AP has to go into either an anemic racial tree, or... the Warchanter tree! Even your Spellsingers will be skaldic raging like the warchanters.
    This isn't a diversity of build options. This isn't "interesting". Forcing players to do something they don't want to do doesn't make for a good game, it drives your players away.

    The system is restrictive and highly stifling to multiclass characters.
    Last edited by Systern; 07-02-2013 at 02:54 AM.

  15. #15
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zirun View Post
    It's also far from being released, so many of the problems people have can be fixed before it is.
    It will be released in 6 Weeks. Whatever we say. ( well there's 99% chance for it to be released in 6 weeks )

    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    The system is restrictive and highly stifling to multiclass characters.
    Not just for the multiclass, it's also restrictive as hell for the single class characters, as they can't get back everything they had ( example Cleric Capstone Divine Intervention is high enough in the Abortion tree that you cannot take it once you have taken the equivalent of the current Radiant Servant II ).

    And you have to waste so many points in padding to reach the next interesting thing that it's pathetic, even for a single class.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    Officially it was because it was going to make DDO more new/returning player friendly. When the original release of information was given players were excited (as was I) but many were cautious until more information was available.
    This is a very good reason to make the change. When I was new player I didn't know anything about prestige enhancements. it wasn't until after my first character advanced to 20 (when that was cap) and I was working on a second character that I stumbled across prestige enhancements by mistake since I unknowingly took all the prerequisites. Then I checked online and realized how valuable they were.

    I am not all that worried about the details of the enhancement pass. I'll just work with it and I'm sure it will work out. I was hoping a level 20 ranger could be as good at ranged combat as a monkcher, but it doesn't look like that will happen.

    I am just hoping once the enhancement change is made they won't be making significant nerfs/adjustments each release requiring me to make big changes every release. I would rather have my hand cut off completely in U19 and reroll rather than losing one finger at a time each release for the next year.

    So whatever it is let's just get it done with and only make minor tweaks/adjustments after that to balance the classes out.

    Overall I think it's a positive change. I am not too concerned how the change will impact my characters - I'll adjust.
    CC Casting Druid: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...C-Summer-Build
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    Several characters on Sarlona all starting with "Rand" in the Guild "Guardians of House Cannith". My main four characters are Randowl (18 rogue 2 artificer mechanic - hope to go back to DC casting some day), Randslar (Bard 14 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 2 Swashbuckler), Randek (Druid CC Caster 17/Fvs 3) and Randomall (Rogue 20 assassin).

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zirun View Post
    It's also far from being released, so many of the problems people have can be fixed before it is.
    With an 09 join date, you should know better.

    Thanks for the laugh this morning

    Cheers

  18. #18
    The Hatchery Paleus's Avatar
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    The enhancement pass has its merits and its flaws. Everything about this game does. I saw things that got me excited about playing some of my characters and other things where I said, aww nuts, Imma have to change that character. The UI however looks like a vast improvement over the current UI, especially for new players.

    Turbine is pushing it because its invested money into it, it offers some improvements that are helpful to new players, and despite the cries of despair found on the forums players have been asking for it. And no one in their right mind is going to solely base their development decisions on an online forum. While some of what is posted is an accurate reflection of player sentiment other parts of it is a reflection of people's tendency to use online tools to vent.

    If the forum posts were an accurate prediction of what would happen, this game would have been dead when it went F2P, dead when Star Wars MMO came out and so forth. That's not to say the game isn't in a downward trend (show me an old mmo that isn't), but after thousands of doom posts for every minute decision over the years the old adage of the boy who cried wolf seems appropriate as to why Turbine is pushing forward with the enhancement pass despite forum posts.
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  19. #19
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    As AbyssalMage implies, it's a cluster that's going to be foisted upon the player base as an "improvement".

    Instead, it destroys existing builds, making most all of my builds impossible to make again. I believe it will greatly confuse new players trying to understand what works well and what is garbage in a build. More, I believe at this point it will give rise to more and more WoW-like, cookie-cutter builds rather than reinforcing the choice and flexibility we currently enjoy.

    The idea of a new interface was good. The ideas about splitting Race and Class, adding new functions, destroying the multi-class, and "making everything better" caused a completely new system to be implemented. It's not going to be an "improvement" to the existing game, it's going to make a completely different game.

    *great sadness*
    There is no free lunch.

  20. #20
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    I am not too concerned how the change will impact my characters - I'll adjust.
    As an alto-holic I am concerned. I have probably 30 characters across 4 servers. I hate to think of how much time and thought it will take to respec even the 5-6 I play most.

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