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  1. #121
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Really?
    yeah, I was 4 higher DC at level 25 with the same gear (from 56 to 60). At level 28 with the better gear (thanks to the cheap AH) I was at 65.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I re-did my PM with a pure PM tree build and my DCs were about the same (I invested in the elf racial lines).
    Well that was foolish. Why would you not take advantage of being an AM and PM at the same time? More DC and a cheap enervation SLA FTW.

  2. #122
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    yeah, I was 4 higher DC at level 25 with the same gear (from 56 to 60). At level 28 with the better gear (thanks to the cheap AH) I was at 65.



    Well that was foolish. Why would you not take advantage of being an AM and PM at the same time? More DC and a cheap enervation SLA FTW.
    I was comparing current PURE build with what I'd get in a new PURE build. The same with my Pally. Mainly because of all of the unhinged hysteria about the Enhancement lines nerfing everything. Which it kinda hasn't. I'm pretty sure I saw an increase of Necro DCs, but a drop in Enchant, which equals out overall. All I'll do is if I stay pure, I'll change my playstyle. As it stands right now, I'm doing significantly more necro spells now than I did in the previous life.

    What I do know is when this all goes live I'm taking the free LR before I do anything at this point.

    You mentioned that there is a CR15 uptick in mobs. Is that for endgame or a scaled increase is that across the board?

  3. #123
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I was comparing current PURE build with what I'd get in a new PURE build. The same with my Pally. Mainly because of all of the unhinged hysteria about the Enhancement lines nerfing everything. Which it kinda hasn't. I'm pretty sure I saw an increase of Necro DCs, but a drop in Enchant, which equals out overall. All I'll do is if I stay pure, I'll change my playstyle. As it stands right now, I'm doing significantly more necro spells now than I did in the previous life.
    That's a moot comparison. You should be comparing what's possible now with what's possible when U19 hits. Spending 80 AP versus spend 80 AP. On the same toon now that yeilds about 4 more Necro DC at the same level and the same gear.


    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    You mentioned that there is a CR15 uptick in mobs. Is that for endgame or a scaled increase is that across the board?
    Only confirmed for EE stuff in the new chain, the trash in some encounters is CR70+. Trash in the level 24 EEs is about CR55 so we're looking at an increase of 15 CR which probably eats up any gain in DC. I saw probably because I haven't tested it yet so this is conjecture.

  4. #124
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    That's a moot comparison. You should be comparing what's possible now with what's possible when U19 hits. Spending 80 AP versus spend 80 AP. On the same toon now that yeilds about 4 more Necro DC at the same level and the same gear.
    What I did and what you think I should have compared does not make the comparison "moot," as I will illustrate below. I wanted to see if I could maintan the current build as I have them now with the new trees, or at lease emulate what I currently had to see what I had to work with wen I did it for real.


    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Only confirmed for EE stuff in the new chain, the trash in some encounters is CR70+. Trash in the level 24 EEs is about CR55 so we're looking at an increase of 15 CR which probably eats up any gain in DC. I saw probably because I haven't tested it yet so this is conjecture.
    Ummm...a CR15 increase in the "new chain" is not comparing apples-to-apples, as the new chain stuff is lvl 26+. But sticking to the lvl 24 comparison (a true apples-to-apples comparison) when scaled back to non-EE stuff, and non-epic stuff - which is about 80 - 90% of the game - you're talking about a modest increase in CR levels. You also get a corresponding increase in spell power, increases in exceptional items (I never had stacking exceptional items so the loss there for me is nil), and a modest increase in DC in your main spell line basically makes it a wash.

    I hit a couple of explorer zones that I was running at the time to try out my wizzy, along with a quest on EH (if I recall correctly). I saw nothing that screamed "out of balance" when it came to combat.

    I can see where this would be a big deal in EEs, and I have no doubt that what I say is a "wash" in other content is not the case in upper-level EE stuff, but as I said before that is maybe 10 - 20 % of the game and/or DDO community (if that).

  5. #125
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Ummm...a CR15 increase in the "new chain" is not comparing apples-to-apples, as the new chain stuff is lvl 26+. But sticking to the lvl 24 comparison (a true apples-to-apples comparison) when scaled back to non-EE stuff, and non-epic stuff - which is about 80 - 90% of the game - you're talking about a modest increase in CR levels. You also get a corresponding increase in spell power, increases in exceptional items (I never had stacking exceptional items so the loss there for me is nil), and a modest increase in DC in your main spell line basically makes it a wash.
    Anything below EE doesn't matter because it's so easy anything is viable.

    What's hysterical about this is the power is coming from HEROIC enhancements which means Necro-casters will be even more powerful in an area where they are already borderline gods.

    But again this is all conjecture, haven't done the new quests yet on EE on my Wizard. Can somebody who has speak up and settle this conjecture?

  6. #126
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Anything below EE doesn't matter because it's so easy anything is viable.
    Tell that to the first-lifer, new player who has to re-do their enhancements. I mean, I have no doubt that you will, but again you're talking from a position of the 10% of players who have a long-term investment in a toon such that you can run EEs. A lot of players don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    What's hysterical about this is the power is coming from HEROIC enhancements which means Necro-casters will be even more powerful in an area where they are already borderline gods.
    I'll agree with you on that one. If you are going to rise the tide, it needs to lift all of the boats not just some of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    But again this is all conjecture, haven't done the new quests yet on EE on my Wizard. Can somebody who has speak up and settle this conjecture?
    I'm...I'm hurt.

    After I agreed with you on the mutated seabass and laser forehead thingies?!?

  7. #127
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Tell that to the first-lifer, new player who has to re-do their enhancements. I mean, I have no doubt that you will, but again you're talking from a position of the 10% of players who have a long-term investment in a toon such that you can run EEs. A lot of players don't.
    Those players won't run EE anyway so it doesn't matter.

    And you really are over-estimating the investment needed to be viable. A first lifer is a god in EH with basic almost free gear from the Eveningstar chain. A single TR and you have potentially the highest DCs and you can get enough spell pen (with EDs and feats of course) to handle even EE Drow. I mean the ONLY piece of really rare gear at this point is the Litany and it's arguable as to if this is even needed.


    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I'll agree with you on that one. If you are going to rise the tide, it needs to lift all of the boats not just some of them.
    See . . . making necros more powerful where they are already arguably too powerful yet leaving them gimped in end-game (again, conjecture until somebody who'se brought a good Necro into the new EEs and says otherwise) is just plain dumb. It doesn't fix any issues and potentially creates more.

    Necro was OP in heroic and EH, acceptable in EE sub level 24, and gimped in EE 24 (which for all intents is the current end-game). Giving necro 9 more DC but raising the saves by 10 in the new hardest content doesn't do ANYTHING to address this state. We'd still be in the situation where the best bet for a DC caster is to stay home.


    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I'm...I'm hurt.

    After I agreed with you on the mutated seabass and laser forehead thingies?!?
    Show's there is hope for you yet.

  8. #128
    Community Member kmoustakas's Avatar
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    Default Why is this still called 'D&D'?

    What I -hate- about the new enhancements is that there are NO CLASS ENHANCEMENTS, only PRESTIGE ENHANCEMENTS. It is really saddening how little connection the people who design these things in DDO have with D&D. Prestige enhancements are that, prestige. The way DDO works nowadays and even more so with the new pass is that my ranger will be an arcane archer/sniper/tempest all at once, instead of a ranger or a sniper or a tempest etc.

    How on earth did they decide that ONLY snipers get favored damage? So, snipers are rangers and the rest are... fighters with bows or fighters with scimitars? Those are actually builds you know guys and a pretty good ones at that! Please take my class/prestige specific complains and apply them to all other classes/prestiges. You will get similar results

    From the beginning, there should have been race trees, class trees and THEN prestige enhancement trees, possibly with a ED style tree with prestiges unlocking according to prerequirements. The UI is already there.

    Just rename the game into Turbine online or something already. This is beginning to have less similarities with d&d than neverwinter has. I might as well go and play a 'control wizard'.

    PS And for goodness sake fix whirlwind attack and abbot's completions already.

  9. #129
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Teh_Troll;5065152]Those players won't run EE anyway so it doesn't matter. [/QUOTE ]

    First, not everyone in the game runs EE, which was kinda my point in the first place. We’ve since gotten off-track a tad.

    New players read these threads too. I was one of them, and it was VERY easy to get discouraged and intimidated by the numbers and benchmarks that are often thrown around (often times because a lot of people posting here live in a EE bubble). Ergo, my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    And you really are over-estimating the investment needed to be viable. A first lifer is a god in EH with basic almost free gear from the Eveningstar chain. A single TR and you have potentially the highest DCs and you can get enough spell pen (with EDs and feats of course) to handle even EE Drow. I mean the ONLY piece of really rare gear at this point is the Litany and it's arguable as to if this is even needed.
    Ok, let’s back up the truck a bit.

    First, name this free Eveningstar gear you get. You talking random lootgen, the challenge stuff, or the stuff you trade in for commendations?

    As for high DCs, are you assuming that that you’ve got Yugo pots, +4 tomes, and the like? Please be specific. At best – going from straight loot items – I’ve pulled maybe a +3 INT tome. So if you’re talking items purchased from the store, you need to specify that. I don’t buy items from the store (except SP potions on occasion) to build my toons.

    Secondly, I usually build for spell pen. Going from memory here, I took the spell pen feats, three Arcanum enhancements, got a past life, have a +2 spell pen item, a couple of spell pen enhancements (I think) and three ranks into Draconic Piercing Spellcraft. I don’t think I have epic Spell Pen, though I could be wrong on this. I don’t farm for equipment like a lot of people on here apparently do. On that eBOB run I cited in a different thread, I got past Drow SR maybe once in ten attempts, if that.

    I’d hardly say that it is an easy road to beat EE Drow spell pen.

    Granted, I’m going on memory here, and I’ll double check my stats. However, even if I didn’t take epic spell pen, I’m about 1 shy from the number you’re talking about. So please, illustrate this. Are you assuming in your statement that you run an elf, take all the Arcanum levels, and have a greater/epic spell pen item? Or are you talking pure stats, Enhancements, and EDs in general?


    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    See . . . making necros more powerful where they are already arguably too powerful yet leaving them gimped in end-game (again, conjecture until somebody who'se brought a good Necro into the new EEs and says otherwise) is just plain dumb. It doesn't fix any issues and potentially creates more.

    Necro was OP in heroic and EH, acceptable in EE sub level 24, and gimped in EE 24 (which for all intents is the current end-game). Giving necro 9 more DC but raising the saves by 10 in the new hardest content doesn't do ANYTHING to address this state. We'd still be in the situation where the best bet for a DC caster is to stay home.
    At present, there are more spells to choose from that necro spells. If you are going full-out necro without having at least one back-up elemental line, you deserve the beating that you get.

    And even if they brought a “good” necro, it is hard to say that they are not just blowing smoke about their build, or using a definition for “good” that squares with yours. SP pots and other items from the DDO store are like spackling paste, and they cover up a LOT of deficiencies before you put on the primer coat to paint.

  10. #130
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    First, not everyone in the game runs EE, which was kinda my point in the first place. We’ve since gotten off-track a tad.
    yeah, but I don't care about the peasants. let them eat cake. EH is so easy it doesn't matter, I can't even imagine a caster dying in an EH quest.

  11. #131
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    yeah, but I don't care about the peasants. let them eat cake. EH is so easy it doesn't matter, I can't even imagine a caster dying in an EH quest.
    It is always "I", "I", "I" and "me", "me", "me" with you isn't it?

    Can't you think of anyone else but yourself?

    Think of the children. Do it for the children.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by unacceptable View Post
    The Enhancement pass is fine. There are winners and losers but overall I like it.

    Go spread your DOOM somewhere that is is appropriate. It makes no sense here.
    That makes me feel better. The enhancement pass is fine because.... you say so.

    How could I possibly argue with that?

    You, sir, win the internet.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artoo-Deetoo View Post
    That makes me feel better. The enhancement pass is fine because.... you say so.

    How could I possibly argue with that?

    You, sir, win the internet.
    If you've not looked into it for yourself to form your own opinion then you can choose to listen to people who have looked at it, or the doom-mongers, the choice is yours.

  14. #134
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    . . . the choice is yours.
    Nah, I'll chose for him.

    Go team d00000m!

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    If you've not looked into it for yourself to form your own opinion then you can choose to listen to people who have looked at it, or the doom-mongers, the choice is yours.
    Not sure what gave you the impression I have not looked into it..... I pored pretty extensively over your PDF before posting.

    There is good stuff there, but it isn't what we asked for. It fundamentally changes the game (which is still incomplete).

    As for the DOOM: once bitten, twice shy. It didn't happen overnight with SWG. It took about a year. F2P saved DDO from oblivion, and it is on borrowed time already. All those new players the changes are catering to, yeah, they are some of the most finicky gamers. It doesn't take much to swap them to a new shiny.

    I personally hope that the pass goes off like gangbusters, and that whatever deficiencies it has are resolved in the next update. That would be awesome. But people are very resistant to change, and if they think their favorite stuff is ruined, they will react, probably by leaving. IMO it's a crapshoot, and what happens will be determined by the whim of a thousand bespectacled 11 year olds.

  16. #136
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    I also hope the Enhancement Pass doesn't ruin the game. I think that Paladins need to be fixed to be at least decent as Paladins are the hallmark class for many and shouldn't be so bad.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    I also hope the Enhancement Pass doesn't ruin the game. I think that Paladins need to be fixed to be at least decent as Paladins are the hallmark class for many and shouldn't be so bad.
    Part of the problem that keeps Paladins down is that they do too much at their core. They have a lot of HP, they have great saves, they have solid immunities, they have decent damage, they have pretty good self-healing and buffing... The major drawbacks Paladins have compared to Fighters, for example, like feats aren't a massive deal because there are few enough feats that are really needed. They're similar to Rangers in this sense, where powergamers (or even just people comfortable multiclassing) don't need all of the features the class provides, thus it's inherently weaker than a class that focuses more directly on what they want. It doesn't matter that you can use a shield really well to tank pretty much anything when any average tank can do the job just as well, and it doesn't matter that you can shoot a bow well when it does less damage than melee and all that matters is damage, damage, damage.

    I think in order to really "fix" Paladins, they'd have to do what they've done with Monks: Make them *too* strong. But Paladins are a free class, so why would they do that? :P

  18. #138
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    Everything I've read so far on the forums, from numerous posters, seems to indicate that DDO players, as a whole, do not like the idea one bit.

    I've mostly been trying to figure out exactly how he whole thing's going work, so I can plan to change my toons accordingly. Admittedly, I'm failing to find any real info, but many opinions. I have yet to read any post from anyone saying anything to the effect of "yeah, it'll be a good thing". Not one. And alot of the stuff I've read has been on the Lamm threads, so it's coming from people who've playtested this New Thing.

    So um, I guess my question is....if nobody seems to want this Enhancement Pass thingy to happen at all, Turbine is still pushing it....why, exactly?
    It's because you were having fun and showing it. You can't do that in ddo. I saw a freep start to skip once and a mod chucked a rock at em.

    And we don't even have rocks in game so figure that one out.
    Through avarice, evil smiles; through insanity, it sings.

  19. #139
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    If you've not looked into it for yourself to form your own opinion then you can choose to listen to people who have looked at it, or the doom-mongers, the choice is yours.
    Who is to say that the doom-mongers have not looked at it? Most of the threads I have read complaining about the enhancement pass are by those who have tested on Lamania. Not all, but most.

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