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  1. #61
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We have feedback forums and I haven't seen you post squat over there.

    Post SPECIFICS as to what is wrong.

    Fill out bug reports on everything.

    Just saying "this is bad" doesn't help, you need to say "this is bad because . . ."

    The stuff we saw in beta was better than alpha. Yes more needs to change, focussed feedback with actionable ideas might get address. "Scrap it and start over" will not.
    I have specified that I have not seen Beta. In that post I mentioned this could be due to the hatred for the new forum format or other reasons, regardless I can't comment on what I have not seen.

    But I will look again, as past experience dictates what is in Beta (bugs and all) will go live with a high chance of certainty during the update (And I have Update 10 through 18 to back up that statement). Bug reporting "everything" works, I tell you. Constructive feedback works, I tell you (Ok, it works occasionally). "Scrap it and start over" may work, but it has never been given a chance (Although from posts, Epic TR may have been scrapped, we'll see). So I am glad to follow the rules, just tell me someone is actually listening, hearing the problem, and relaying the problem to those who can make decisions and act upon them because 8 updates says otherwise.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    I have specified that I have not seen Beta. In that post I mentioned this could be due to the hatred for the new forum format or other reasons, regardless I can't comment on what I have not seen.

    But I will look again, as past experience dictates what is in Beta (bugs and all) will go live with a high chance of certainty during the update (And I have Update 10 through 18 to back up that statement). Bug reporting "everything" works, I tell you. Constructive feedback works, I tell you (Ok, it works occasionally). "Scrap it and start over" may work, but it has never been given a chance (Although from posts, Epic TR may have been scrapped, we'll see). So I am glad to follow the rules, just tell me someone is actually listening, hearing the problem, and relaying the problem to those who can make decisions and act upon them because 8 updates says otherwise.
    You would be wrong. There have already been a vast number of changes from the first past. The feedback did not cause them to scrap it and start again, but it did provide them with new direction to go in. Unless you are going to participate, your opinion is null and void.
    The Great Gnome Conspiracy was here!

  3. #63
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    AbyssalMage, I'm right with you on your perspective. With the possible, and yet to be proven, exception of the proposed TR system, every change I can recall seeing as a "preview" or "beta" has been shoved through regardless of how many bugs or other issues existed. Every time I recall a system going to Lamannia that system has gone live. I expect no less for the coming enhancement change.

    As I've said before, on the boards and in the surveys, the enhancement change is not a revamp of the existing system. It is a completely different and new system that effectively breaks every existing build in the game. It's not an enhancement update, it's a whole new game with new rules and builds.

    I tried multiple times to produce the same builds on Lamannia I made on live. Not one of the existing, working, and to me enjoyable builds could be reproduced under the new system. All the work I did on my existing builds will be wasted time and effort once the new system goes live. I'm not at all certain I want to spend the time, energy, and effort to learn the new system to make new builds, learn to play those builds effectively, and quite probably run into the same issues I had when learning to play DDO as it is now. Four years is a lot of time to learn, and to have those years become wasted time hurts.

    I feel as if I'm being pushed over an edge, with no hope of anything but a nasty fall and a difficult climb back up to where I'm already at with respect to effective build making. Throw in the probable changes to TR'ing, and I'm feeling disgusted with the whole mess DDO is becoming. When a game stops being fun and starts being more work than it's worth, it's time to quit playing. Maybe that time is coming soon for me and DDO.
    There is no free lunch.

  4. #64
    Community Member ThePrisoner's Avatar
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    I've been waiting for the new enhancement system for the last two years. Here's why:

    The current enhancement system is not user friendly, the prestiges are incomplete, and it's too limiting.

    The new system is user friendly, the prestiges are complete, combined, and mostly improved, and there is more flexibility for new builds.

    The people who don't like the new system, whether they are willing to admit it or not, mainly don't like it for one reason: They will have to go through the trouble of TR'ing and rethinking their whole build. What they have worked so hard to achieve with their current character will be somewhat negated.

    But look, it's an MMORPG. Get back on the wheel, you hamsters. This is what we all signed on for. If we don't have any reasons to change our gear and builds, then we have no more reasons to play. Sure, massive changes like these are a shock to the system compared with the smaller changes that are usually trickled out, but it's progress. The new system is simply better.

  5. #65
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    I've been waiting for the new enhancement system for the last two years. Here's why:

    The current enhancement system is not user friendly, the prestiges are incomplete, and it's too limiting.

    The new system is user friendly, the prestiges are complete, combined, and mostly improved, and there is more flexibility for new builds.

    The people who don't like the new system, whether they are willing to admit it or not, mainly don't like it for one reason: They will have to go through the trouble of TR'ing and rethinking their whole build. What they have worked so hard to achieve with their current character will be somewhat negated.

    But look, it's an MMORPG. Get back on the wheel, you hamsters. This is what we all signed on for. If we don't have any reasons to change our gear and builds, then we have no more reasons to play. Sure, massive changes like these are a shock to the system compared with the smaller changes that are usually trickled out, but it's progress. The new system is simply better.

    People need to stop complaining about how their current character is going to be screwed and need to start thinking about how their next incarnation of it is going to be better.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 07-02-2013 at 08:25 PM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post

    So um, I guess my question is....if nobody seems to want this Enhancement Pass thingy to happen at all, Turbine is still pushing it....why, exactly?


    Because the game is dead or dying and Turbine doesn't want to spend any more resources on DDO.

  7. #67
    Community Member brian14's Avatar
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    I am not on Lama, but after reading about new Enhancements system I like it. A lot.
    "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

    "Of course it is. Are YOU going to question beholder's artistic sense?"

  8. #68
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post

    People need to stop complaining about how their current character is going to be screwed and need to start thinking about how their next incarnation of it is going to be better.
    I think that's the crux of the biscuit right there. Either you look forward to new idea and challenges, or you ***** and moan about everything that comes along that's new.

    And many of the complainers are incredibly dramatic. You'd think that actual living people were going to be affected by these changes, not made up toons in computer generated world.

  9. #69
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    People need to stop complaining about how their current character is going to be screwed and need to start thinking about how their next incarnation of it is going to be better.
    And if you are not willing to reincarnate ? ( there can be various reasons like : Static Group, Permadeath, Unwilling to spend the time levelling again, unable to spend the time to level a TR. )

    You character will be screwed...
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  10. #70
    Community Member ferd's Avatar
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    The UI definitely needs an overhaul, and it can help bring some better balance to the game. Some people will say we don't need it while other think it's long overdue. After what we've seen on Lammannia, I personally think it is a step down vs what could have been done several years ago by working on each class one by one, especially in updating the PRE's. The new system has a too much of a boxed-in feel to it.But we need it for sure. I guess time will tell if it is accepted by the player base


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    "I like pie. Pie is delicious." "You know, cake is better", and a sudden nerf gun war breaks out because Pie is supreme. Then someone says, "What about dinner?"

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    How are Monkchers hurt by this? Asking because as I don't play a full monk I haven't looked too deeply into this.

    And ALL SDs are killed by this.
    Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars share the same cooldown in the new enhancements, so you can't use one while the other is on cooldown any more.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flavilandile View Post
    And if you are not willing to reincarnate ? ( there can be various reasons like : Static Group, Permadeath, Unwilling to spend the time levelling again, unable to spend the time to level a TR. )

    You character will be screwed...
    I'm guessing that you'll get a free LR token for every character when this goes live, so you can respec if you want to. With the scale of the changes, a simple "Reset enhancements" at your trainer isn't going to be good enough to cover everything, so the smart thing to do is to just hand out the tokens.

  13. #73
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brian14 View Post
    I am not on Lama, but after reading about new Enhancements system I like it. A lot.
    what are some of the things you like about it?

  14. #74
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    I think that's the crux of the biscuit right there. Either you look forward to new idea and challenges, or you ***** and moan about everything that comes along that's new.

    And many of the complainers are incredibly dramatic. You'd think that actual living people were going to be affected by these changes, not made up toons in computer generated world.
    Hello, I'm an actual living person. I'm going to be affected by these changes. That includes the lost time and effort of making builds that will no longer work, more time and effort learning the new system, and some hard feelings on having to change horses in mid-stream to learn a completely new style of play on every character I have (currently at 12 actives).
    There is no free lunch.

  15. #75
    Community Member brian14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    what are some of the things you like about it?
    UI is is the big thing. Makes enormously easier to plan a character, not to mention to make changeovers as you level -- enhancements you want at level 12 are not necessarily a subset of enhancements you want at level 20.

    Other than that -- I play mainly arcane archers, bards and artis, and my favorite race is half-elf. Helf and ranger enhancements had not changed much; everyone complains about losing Ranger Devotion, but I rarely used it in the first place, and I really like new arrow options for AA's. Enchantment-focused bards got a significant boost as far as I am concerned, while artificers got a lot more flexibility if not necessarily more power.
    "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

    "Of course it is. Are YOU going to question beholder's artistic sense?"

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    I've been waiting for the new enhancement system for the last two years. Here's why:

    The current enhancement system is not user friendly, the prestiges are incomplete, and it's too limiting.

    The new system is user friendly, the prestiges are complete, combined, and mostly improved, and there is more flexibility for new builds.

    The people who don't like the new system, whether they are willing to admit it or not, mainly don't like it for one reason: They will have to go through the trouble of TR'ing and rethinking their whole build. What they have worked so hard to achieve with their current character will be somewhat negated.

    But look, it's an MMORPG. Get back on the wheel, you hamsters. This is what we all signed on for. If we don't have any reasons to change our gear and builds, then we have no more reasons to play. Sure, massive changes like these are a shock to the system compared with the smaller changes that are usually trickled out, but it's progress. The new system is simply better.

    People need to stop complaining about how their current character is going to be screwed and need to start thinking about how their next incarnation of it is going to be better.
    So you think that changing level 12 PREs to level 20 = "complete" huh? You think scrolling left and right as opposed to scrolling up and down is really that different? You think that taking Class perks and putting them in only 1 PRE tree = MORE flexibility?

    (I know Bob that you used to have access to the entire buffet, now we've split up the buffet into separate "meals". You can still get all the stuff you had in the buffet but you need to buy each meal. You don't want to buy a meal just to get that one item? You think that's wasteful since you can't possibly eat 3 entire meals at lunch? Sorry, that's the way it is.)

    As for changes to characters, I don't mind changes to characters - I'm an altoholic. But what about people who put a lot of time and effort into one character and don't have any interest in TRing. They've worked and worked on tweaking this one character to make it "perfect" in their eyes. Ground out content to get exactly the right equipment, etc.

    No, other MMOs don't do this. There is one that did and that change is infamous. Maybe you've heard about it? It was called the New Game Experience (NGE)...

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    This is a very good reason to make the change. When I was new player I didn't know anything about prestige enhancements. it wasn't until after my first character advanced to 20 (when that was cap) and I was working on a second character that I stumbled across prestige enhancements by mistake since I unknowingly took all the prerequisites. Then I checked online and realized how valuable they were.

    I am not all that worried about the details of the enhancement pass. I'll just work with it and I'm sure it will work out. I was hoping a level 20 ranger could be as good at ranged combat as a monkcher, but it doesn't look like that will happen.

    I am just hoping once the enhancement change is made they won't be making significant nerfs/adjustments each release requiring me to make big changes every release. I would rather have my hand cut off completely in U19 and reroll rather than losing one finger at a time each release for the next year.

    So whatever it is let's just get it done with and only make minor tweaks/adjustments after that to balance the classes out.

    Overall I think it's a positive change. I am not too concerned how the change will impact my characters - I'll adjust.
    You just said that this will be a good change because it will nerf everyone whereas the old system nerfed noobies until they learned it...Do you wanna rethink your position before I dice it up?

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    I think that's the crux of the biscuit right there. Either you look forward to new idea and challenges, or you ***** and moan about everything that comes along that's new.

    And many of the complainers are incredibly dramatic. You'd think that actual living people were going to be affected by these changes, not made up toons in computer generated world.
    Because actual human beings are affected or do you think the toons move themselves. Oh and I got a mirror for you you complained about people voicing mostly constructive concerns which is not constructive and far closer to the moaning you speak of and you and those like you are quite dramatic with the grandstanding and the looking down on those who wish to voice objection.

    Btw, those who say it's a MMORPG get over and such are forgetting something key. It is...or was a different kind of MMORPG. An appreciable minority has or had a niche here that the clones did not satisfy. Removing the niche that feed this company for years is a very valid grievance and even if it were not we don't need another clone.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lerincho View Post
    You would be wrong. There have already been a vast number of changes from the first past. The feedback did not cause them to scrap it and start again, but it did provide them with new direction to go in. Unless you are going to participate, your opinion is null and void.
    The problem with that is that they are adjusting the detailing and paint job, when players are pointing out massive problems with the system's performance that remain unaddressed. They can tweak the values and get everything adjusted perfectly, but it will not help if they do not want to budge on fundamental design flaws.

    Just one example among many that were pointed out during the Alpha round would be the 'points spent in tree' Spell Power system. And I have little faith that this will be addressed, considering in the last developer chat on Lamannia Vargouille essentially said "People don't need to maximize for Spell Power." There is something very wrong when there is such a massive discrepancy between designer's opinion that it is entirely reasonable for a spellcaster to dump a large number of points into Racial or other Trees to pick up Enhancements, representing a loss of dozens of Spell Power, and the player's perspective that very few of these dozens of points spent actually boost the spell casting and instead are spent to fill prerequisites making them a waste of potential.

    See Ironclan's thread listing more of the nerfs, such as spell critical damage. It is still in progress at this point, but I am sure that he will get it fleshed out more soon.


    EDIT: Received clarification on the remembered quote from DevChat.
    Last edited by ForumAccess; 07-03-2013 at 03:36 PM.

  20. #80
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    considering in the last developer chat on Lamannia Vargouille essentially said "People don't really need high Spell Power." There is something very wrong when there is such a massive discrepancy between designer's opinion that it is entirely reasonable for a spellcaster to dump a large number of points into Racial or other Trees to pick up Enhancements, representing a loss of dozens of Spell Power, and the player's perspective that very few of these dozens of points spent actually boost the spell casting and instead are spent to fill prerequisites makes them a waste of potential. .
    Considering his reaction when the fact that Divines and Sorcerors are getting hit by the Spellcraft/Heal/Repair pile of manure was mentioned...
    namely : Tough Choices, I like Tough choices...
    Because characters will have to waste ( there's no other term ) 6 Build points to raise their INT to 14, just so that they can take two of the new precious skills for while keeping the old skills they already had.
    Now even with an Epic TR Completionist ( 38BP ) it's going to be interesting to see how you find them without gimping the character. I know I can't find them on my characters, I know I'm getting shafted.
    It's not a tough choice, it's the difference between having fun playing a game and getting bored/annoyed/stressed/angry playing a game... As it's just a game, and as we pay ( more or less ) to play it, if it's not fun anymore we can just take our money somewhere else.
    On G-Land : Flavilandile, Blacklock, Yaelle, Millishande, Larilandile, Gildalinde, Tenalafel, and many other...

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